What subjects does arts offer?

humbert

Blush_01 wrote:

One of the most intelligent people I know had to have grinds to scrape a D in ordinary level maths. She's bright - top of her class. She has excelled in her field in college and is virtually having money thrown at her to do a PhD. I only wish I was as utterly rubbish at maths, to be honest, if that's what the result is.

Humbert, my point was that a formal level of English is used across the board within a university, even in the study of other languages etc. A formal level of maths isn't necessarily. I'm by no means dismissing the importance of Maths. I just don't see how important it is to getting an Arts degree, which is what the OP is talking about, unless he's going to study Maths, Economics or something along that vein.

Well I'll take your word for that, I guess it's possible, though I do find it bewildering.

I accept that English, being the language we speak, is more difficult to avoid than maths. However, for example if there was a maths student who's English was composed of atrocious slang and devoid of punctuation or grammar but was quite comprehensible(again I know this is possible from time served on public transport), he could get a good degree but would you consider it an acceptable state of affairs.

I know that's a rather hypothetical situation but I'm just using it to illustrate my point - that a persons education should be at a certain standard in fundamental subjects on general principle, in a university, as opposed to practical necessity. This is rather off topic though.

estebancambias

I put my lack of any knowledge when it comes to maths, down to the fact in primary school i missed alot of school because I was in hospital alot. Im guessing primary school is where the foundations are laid down

humbert

It would certainly leave you at a serious disadvantage. There is a maths forum on this site by the way, which you may well know, if you have any specific questions.

Stabshauptmann

humbert wrote:

a persons education should be at a certain standard in fundamental subjects on general principle, in a university, as opposed to practical necessity.

QFT

funky penguin

humbert wrote:

Well I'll take your word for that, I guess it's possible, though I do find it bewildering.

I accept that English, being the language we speak, is more difficult to avoid than maths. However, for example if there was a maths student who's English was composed of atrocious slang and devoid of punctuation or grammar but was quite comprehensible(again I know this is possible from time served on public transport), he could get a good degree but would you consider it an acceptable state of affairs.

I know that's a rather hypothetical situation but I'm just using it to illustrate my point - that a persons education should be at a certain standard in fundamental subjects on general principle, in a university, as opposed to practical necessity. This is rather off topic though.

How can you justify making Maths a requirement of Arts by "general principal"?

Depriving someone the right to study, say English, because they can't solve geometric equations is insane.

Stabshauptmann

I'll let humbert defend his own posts, but since I've thrown my hat into the ring behind him I'll give my 2c.

The Irish education system is a well rounded one. We do more subjects that the average western nation in secondary school, though not in the same depth. I think this a much better idea because it creates well rounded people.

IMO, its the different skills required to excel in different areas that are important. For example, I think learning Gaelige in school is a great idea, not from any sense of national pride or practicality but because of its difference from english and the latin subjects one typically studies in school, which helps one develop a superior standard of reasoning.

Intelligence is the ability to solve problems and think critically. I think that intelligent people is what our education system should aim to produce. Not narrow focused individuals with an impressive ability for retention and repetition.

I think that in order to pass the LC, one should still have to pass English, Irish and Math.

Red Alert

I agree with Kaptain Redeye on this. It's good to expose people to a bit of everything. Imagine having your fate sealed at 16 about what area you're going to go in to!

darth insidiari

I think the relevance of maths in arts subjects is underestimated. Leaving cert. maths, particularly at ordinary and foundation level, doesn't just teach the kind of maths relevant to university level mathematics, it also aims to give the student a certain mathematical awareness. A simple example would be how to read tables and diagrams.

I recall in first year History I was given plenty of maps, diagrams and tables to interpret. They perhaps showed differences in population sizes or the movement of populations in an area such as early Norman Ireland.

The same goes for several courses I took in Greek and Roman Civ., especially in the history and archaeology courses. Certainly with the art and archaeology courses you had to be fairly spatially aware, which is intrinsically linked with the mathematical study of shapes and spaces. Being able to interpret ground plans with nothing but shapes, measures of area, height, and lengths to guide you as to how a building might have looked, and how it affected the monuments around it is a really important part of the study of classical archaeology.

I'm sure the same goes for the archaeology course proper. In fact I'm sure it's even more complex. I did a spot of underwater archaeology in Italy and that was certainly challenging, having to take into account depths and distances from the coast and calculating how that coastline might have changed over thousands of years so that land-bridges submerge etc... The same sort of abilities are need for geography and then some.

I recall another course I did that focused on the exportation movements of Greek vases in the Mediterranean world, it was nothing but chart after chart of figures to be interpreted. We had to be able to understand not just how many vases were manufactured, but how they were transported, over what distance, and how quickly this happened. We had to be able to interpret by the numbers of different artifacts found at locations what significance these locations had to the industry of manufacturing, painting, selling and transporting the vases. We even had to be able to explain the complicated process by which the vases were manufactured, at what temperatures the "slip" (a clay-based material) turned red or black, etc...

In Philosophy I would imagine it would be difficult to keep up with Logic in 2nd year if your ability to think mathematically is poor. As far as English goes, I think when you have a relatively good mathematical ability(like probably most Arts students) you may not notice how important it is. For instance with understanding iambic pentameter, or the numerical patterns present in the Faerie Queene, or how folios were printed and manufactured. And then there's just being able to work with dates, periods, etc... In my experience a huge proportion of the books I have read included some sort of table.

So I don't know exactly how a person with foundation level maths would fair in any arts subject. But I do know that any subject I have experience with would pose a difficulty for someone with very poor mathematical ability.

Stabshauptmann

Not to mention the number of arts subjects where you need statistics or if you do economics

snickerpuss

I don't think people who do languages would have a big problem, i never have in irish. And maps and diagrams in art history have never given me any trouble. Neither has figuring out metres in poetry.
And i can still remember dates, and yes, even read tables. (Shock!)
All this despite the fact i can't do simple multiplication, division, algebra...anything.
I haven't used any maths at all since i left school. I think you all might be over thinking just how much maths is involved in arts.
Nobody needs geometry to figure out the metre of a poem.
For most arts subjects, i'd say you'd be fine.

funky penguin

darth insidiari wrote:

I think the relevance of maths in arts subjects is underestimated. Leaving cert. maths, particularly at ordinary and foundation level, doesn't just teach the kind of maths relevant to university level mathematics, it also aims to give the student a certain mathematical awareness. A simple example would be how to read tables and diagrams.

I recall in first year History I was given plenty of maps, diagrams and tables to interpret. They perhaps showed differences in population sizes or the movement of populations in an area such as early Norman Ireland.

The same goes for several courses I took in Greek and Roman Civ., especially in the history and archaeology courses. Certainly with the art and archaeology courses you had to be fairly spatially aware, which is intrinsically linked with the mathematical study of shapes and spaces. Being able to interpret ground plans with nothing but shapes, measures of area, height, and lengths to guide you as to how a building might have looked, and how it affected the monuments around it is a really important part of the study of classical archaeology.

I'm sure the same goes for the archaeology course proper. In fact I'm sure it's even more complex. I did a spot of underwater archaeology in Italy and that was certainly challenging, having to take into account depths and distances from the coast and calculating how that coastline might have changed over thousands of years so that land-bridges submerge etc... The same sort of abilities are need for geography and then some.

I recall another course I did that focused on the exportation movements of Greek vases in the Mediterranean world, it was nothing but chart after chart of figures to be interpreted. We had to be able to understand not just how many vases were manufactured, but how they were transported, over what distance, and how quickly this happened. We had to be able to interpret by the numbers of different artifacts found at locations what significance these locations had to the industry of manufacturing, painting, selling and transporting the vases. We even had to be able to explain the complicated process by which the vases were manufactured, at what temperatures the "slip" (a clay-based material) turned red or black, etc...

In Philosophy I would imagine it would be difficult to keep up with Logic in 2nd year if your ability to think mathematically is poor. As far as English goes, I think when you have a relatively good mathematical ability(like probably most Arts students) you may not notice how important it is. For instance with understanding iambic pentameter, or the numerical patterns present in the Faerie Queene, or how folios were printed and manufactured. And then there's just being able to work with dates, periods, etc... In my experience a huge proportion of the books I have read included some sort of table.

So I don't know exactly how a person with foundation level maths would fair in any arts subject. But I do know that any subject I have experience with would pose a difficulty for someone with very poor mathematical ability.

I think you're overestimating the simplicity of foundation maths.

There are graph questions: Paper One, 2006 LC: Question 6 requires the candidate to answer questions on a graph and question 7 requires the graph of a function to be drawn.

Paper 2, Question 1: The plan of a site is given questions asked.

Multiple questions on geometry.

Question 6 is one on statistics.

They may be basic, but good lord its not a requirement for the majority of arts subjects.

Archaeology has a little bit of maths involoved yes (in certain areas), but they teach you exactly what to do. If you have problems, the lecturers or turtors will help, that what they're there for.

And, the absolute tiny little bit of "maths" in History and Greek and Roman is the same idea.

Anyway, all in all etc., most important thing to remember: the college does not deem it a requirement.

Pride Fighter

You can get in with foundation Maths. Check the NUI matriculation and it states that you dont even need Maths, however to compensate you need 4 higher level honours. I know a friend who got in without maths. I got in with an E grade in higher level Spanish, my 5 higher level honours compensated though. Telephone UCD or the NUI and they will tell you what I am saying is cool. There are over 40 subjects you can do in Arts. Some relevant (Phisosophy, English, History etc) and some not (Canadian Studies).

Stabshauptmann

snickerpuss wrote:

All this despite the fact i can't do simple multiplication, division, algebra...anything.
I haven't used any maths at all since i left school.

How exactly to you pay for goods and services?
Do you carry a calculator to the supermarket?

Learning maths gives on an additional faculty of reasoning which plays a part in other fields, it is unusual for one to recognise there own tacit knowledge. Something which Ive said time and time again, there is no such thing as common sense, you just dont remember how/when you learned it.

Now granted, the there are some things which you hardly need, matrices spring to mind, but rather than debate where the minimum standard lies, I'm just adopting the principle that some minimum standard apply.

snickerpuss

Em...the checkout usually counts up all the stuff i buy for me. Do you have to do it yourself?
I can count money, since thats just counting.

Thats super that you're good at everything, but most people have something they're bad at. No matter what i did maths made no sense to me. But fair enough if you think people who are very bad at maths shouldn't be able to study languages/litreature or whatnot.
I think English for science people is different since they'll clearly be using English and writing in English everyday. But for me, i never need maths. Not in real life, not in my subjects.

I don't think dyscalculia is recognised as a real thing, certainly not like dyslexia is.

Stabshauptmann

If my bill is 17.86 I need to know A)What combination of coins and cash to give to pay or B)What change to expect back.

snickerpuss

Yes i don't need to do algebra or division to count coins. I simply count them vaguely up in my head and i'm correct nearly all the time. The change i need back will be on my receipt so i don't need to do maths for that either.
I can count. That to me isn't maths. Also i make most of my bigger purchases with my laser card, eschewing the need for counting/change etc. Smaller purchases can easily be counted.

I promise you that most people never use any of the stuff thats on the maths course be it foundation or higher.

Stabshauptmann

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055087663

funky penguin

Meh. Not knowing is not going to drastically effect the outcome of his/her module, especially since a good mark was achieved. Plus, again, Math not needed for Law.

All s/he has to is ask a lecturer/tutor. Or ask on a message board, as has been done, and hope that someone studying a Math based course can answer.

Stabshauptmann

"studying a math based course"?!

scop

Some people just suck at math. Its as simple as that. I scrapped a D in Ordinary level Maths for my Leaving, and yet am currently pursuing a Phd in Philosophy. I cannot even engage with maths on any level. I have a lot of sympathy with those lads who are otherwise intelligent, but dragged down by an inability to engage with Maths.

funky penguin

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

"studying a math based course"?!

Like commerce.

arbeitsscheuer

scop wrote:

Some people just suck at math. Its as simple as that. I scrapped a D in Ordinary level Maths for my Leaving, and yet am currently pursuing a Phd in Philosophy. I cannot even engage with maths on any level. I have a lot of sympathy with those lads who are otherwise intelligent, but dragged down by an inability to engage with Maths.

Likewise.

Actually I'm gonna go one step further and say, hand on heart, that in looking at those Foundation level papers for 2006 I realised that I didn't understand half of it. It was essentially gibberish to me.

And you know what?

I couldn't give a shít. And neither should you.