Maths test in China vs UK

Syth

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

The BBC wrote:

Mathematicians set Chinese test
Maths enthusiasts are being challenged to answer a sample question from Chinese university entrance tests.

The tests are set for prospective science undergraduates.

The UK's Royal Society of Chemistry is offering a £500 prize to one lucky but bright person who answers the question below correctly.

It has also published a test used in a "well known and respected" English university - the society is not naming it - to assess the strength of incoming science undergraduates' maths skills.

What I find amazing is the 1st year university test in the UK. That's the familiar 3-4-5 triangle. I did that in Junior Cert....

humbert

The british one is embarrassing. The chinese one is like one of those shapes that the borg can't process

Ciaran500

I assume the Uk test is for nothing more than weeding out people that have trouble with maths and giving them that attention they need rather than being any sort of important test.

We got a similar maths test when we started Engineering, lots of simple little questions from all over the LC syllabus.

Son Goku

The Chinese test is a bit pointless to be honest. Why would they want their students to be that good at manipulating Euclidean geometry?
If you want to make a "hard" maths test, why not make them learn a little group theory, some early stuff by Cantor on Sets or Dedekind's work on the reals. Stuff that's challenging and interesting, not "here is a isodechedragon, prove all its angles add up to pi".

Professor_Fink

As someone who has been involved in university admissions and teaching in the UK, let me say that the level of mathematics among A level students, even thos taking double maths is extremely low, although not quite as bad as the question in that BBC article makes it look. After taking double maths (that is two maths A levels, usually out of 3 in total) haven't even seen matrices before.

That said, it's not actually the students fault. Maths and science in general is being perpetually dumbed down here (the UK), and this has really left the good students without a proper grounding in the subjects.

I ony know one chinese undergrad, but she is an exceptionally good student. The chinese system incourages tremendous competitiveness (which may certainly not be the best environment) which has the effect of producing some really outstanding students.

Fallen Seraph

I'm gonna make the wild assumption that neither of the two tests consisted of a single question which makes one wonder how representative the two questions chosen actually are of the standard. The maths in england may be bad, but I'm very sceptical of that article.

Son Goku

Fallen Seraph wrote:

I'm gonna make the wild assumption that neither of the two tests consisted of a single question which makes one wonder how representative the two questions chosen actually are of the standard. The maths in england may be bad, but I'm very sceptical of that article.

I know the Chinese test is in general similar to the difficulty of that question. Of course it isn't all solid geometry. First year in Chinese universities has stuff "we" don't see until third year.

Raskolnikov

That article is a load of crapola. Any student studying A-Level Mathematics would be able to solve the Chinese problems.

The question taken from the English university is obviously a introductionary mathematics course for people who haven't taken A-Level Mathematics.

Professor_Fink

Raskolnikov wrote:

A-Level Mathematics would be able to solve the Chinese problems.

You'd be suprised at just how badly mathematics is taught in the UK!

Professor_Fink

Oh, and just in case anyone thinks that if the English system is bad, then the Irish one is too, it isn't. I would certainly expect someone doing honours leaving cert maths to be able to answer both questions (at least a good student!). Honours Maths for the Leaving Cert is certainly more advanced than the current A-level exams (even if a student takes both maths A-levels).

humbert

A-level maths is much more specific, for example most of them hadn't encountered complex numbers, but what they had done, they had done well.

Ciaran500

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

They updated the story today.

Michael Collins

Ciaran500 wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

They updated the story today.

What did they change, can't tell at first glance...

Professor_Fink

humbert wrote:

A-level maths is much more specific, for example most of them hadn't encountered complex numbers, but what they had done, they had done well.

I'm not quite sure what to say to this. If you make it through secondary school without encountering complex numbers then your education system has failed you pure and simple.

I have yet to find an area where the maths standard is at leaving cert level (and in some areas, the junior cert beats it e.g. the concept of a mathematical proof).

ecksor

Professor_Fink wrote:

I'm not quite sure what to say to this. If you make it through secondary school without encountering complex numbers then your education system has failed you pure and simple.

Why is that exactly?

I don't think that students who have A-level maths and certainly those that also do further maths are too far behind (if at all) when it comes to their readiness for University. The main problem appears to be the mathematical maturity of those entering subjects like economics and computer science etc when they don't have A-level mathematics.

humbert

The students who took further maths were above the leaving cert level if I remember correctly, though they were people who had a good aptitude for maths in gereral anyway.

Professor_Fink

humbert wrote:

The students who took further maths were above the leaving cert level if I remember correctly, though they were people who had a good aptitude for maths in gereral anyway.

I remember when I was in college that people always assumed that the A level further maths course was harder, and certainly anyone who did it rather than the Leaving cert claimed it was. Then I moved to the UK and started teaching physics at one of the better known UK universities, where you would assume many of the best students end up. The students are fine, but their level of maths isn't. There is absolutely no comparisonbetween the two. The LC is far better.

Professor_Fink

ecksor wrote:

Why is that exactly?

I don't think that students who have A-level maths and certainly those that also do further maths are too far behind (if at all) when it comes to their readiness for University. The main problem appears to be the mathematical maturity of those entering subjects like economics and computer science etc when they don't have A-level mathematics.

As mentioned in the previous post, I teach first year students (among others) physics. I have actually had to take time out of what were supposed to be mechanics classes to teach the relevant mathematics. The system has seriously underprepared these students for a physics degree. From colleagues I hear that the same is true in maths.

Again this is nothing to do with the students themselves (and I assume I've been getting the top end of the curve), largely they work hard and I have no complaints. The problem is the system.

Ciaran500

Michael Collins wrote:

What did they change, can't tell at first glance...

Ooops, just misread the first time >_< I thought some of the quotes were new.

irishmilk

The chinese math test has two parts in 150 points total. Part A is 100 points of easy questions. Part B is much harder questions. Most degree course average points of enterance are over 100 points. So all sudents must do both parts. The questions from BBC may just from part A.

ZorbaTehZ

Im in LC atm, and imo the question isn't that hard as long as you can get around the complexity of the diagram.
However the UK question is a disgrace. Secondary school 1st year maths. . .

Naikon

That English maths question is pretty shocking I must say.
FTW, I am in Ordinary level maths for leaving cert, and that question is similar to a question from my first year maths book:eek: