I posted...

Spectator#1

...a thread in the Leaving Cert forum just notifying prospective UCD students that the college isn't working as well as they might be led to believe in the media. If anybody has anything they might want to add to it feel free...

humbert

Good idea. They're pumping a fortune into promoting the college's image and the reality of the situation is a hell of a lot different.


EDIT: Though the title smacks a little of bias

Sangre

Bit pointless when you've nothing to compare to it.

Why tell students a college is crap if it turns out every other one is worse?

Spectator#1

Sangre wrote:

Bit pointless when you've nothing to compare to it.

Why tell students a college is crap if it turns out every other one is worse?

Because the college I'm talking about is still crap, regardless of all the other ones. You can still judge these things you know. Would you agree with letting one scumbag off for just robbing a shop during the riots at the Orange march last year purely because he didn't throw petrol bombs at guards or mug tourists as well?

Spectator#1

humbert wrote:

Though the title smacks a little of bias

True, I'll see if I can change it. I wrote that bit without thinking. By the way, if any of my facts are wrong or I've said anything legally dodgy, please feel free to correct me on it, I did leave it open to the fact that it was just my experience of UCD so I don't think there should be a problem. I didn't say anything libellous or slanderous.

humbert

Sangre wrote:

Bit pointless when you've nothing to compare to it.

Why tell students a college is crap if it turns out every other one is worse?

surely you know people from other colleges?

Spectator#1

humbert wrote:

surely you know people from other colleges?

Good point Humbert. Trinity seems to be getting a reaming at the moment too but the communication problems isn't as bad over there as far as I know.

I'd go farther though. Why would anybody bother doing anything at all with Sangre's attitude?

Stepherunie

Yours is only one view Spectator, remember that. The voices you most often hear are the ones of people who disagree, not those who are content.

Spectator#1

Stepherunie wrote:

Yours is only one view Spectator, remember that. The voices you most often hear are the ones of people who disagree, not those who are content.

Did you read the thread? Not ot only do I accept that, I also made sure to mention it too! Plus, even if people are content, that doesn't void the fact that UCD have behaved disgracefully over the last few years. As far as I'm concerned, if there are people that are happy in UCD they're either really either really flukey, asleep or Hugh Brady.

Stepherunie

So you of such knowledge which catagory do I fall into???

I thoroughly enjoy college and I acknowledge the failings tht UCD has but I work with my own school to improve these. That work has paid off as things within my course are vastly improved from how they were even last September.

Sure I complain about some things but I'm genuinely happy I chose to study in UCD.

Spectator#1

Stepherunie wrote:

So you of such knowledge which catagory do I fall into???

I thoroughly enjoy college and I acknowledge the failings tht UCD has but I work with my own school to improve these. That work has paid off as things within my course are vastly improved from how they were even last September.

Sure I complain about some things but I'm genuinely happy I chose to study in UCD.

You're flukey, so am I. However, there is a difference between failings (as problems that just happen and get ironed out over time through proper discourse) and failings (as inevitable results of the "we don't give a **** about what the **** happens to the university, it's students or it's staff, we're making these ****ing changes whether you like it or not and we have no problem lying to you while we do it" attitude). The way I see it, these failings might be fixed by working with your school to do so, but it's making the best of a bad situation. If we had an administration that cared in the first place we wouldn't have to wait a matter of years for the problems to get fixed, they wouldn't have done it in the first place.

You need to separate the college you like from the people in the college who are doing everything they can to turn it into a competitive money spinner. You're happy with your school now? They quite literally don't care about you. If it made more sense in terms of image or economic value to completely change it into an unworkable mess, like they've done with the vet college, they'd do it at the drop of a hat.

If I'm really honest, I'm genuinely glad I chose to study in UCD too. The philosophy department is excellent and they make every effort to accomodate their students. They have always resisted changes that might damage the quality of the education they provide. I have the utmost respect for that department and pretty much all of it's staff.

On top of this, I have had some excellent experiences in UCD and made some great friends. I'm fully satisfied with my involvement in college societies and activities over my four years here and I will leave the college a better person I was than when I came in here.

None of this, however, is thanks to Hugh Brady, Philip Nolan or the rest of that ridiculous administrative team they have ensconced in that building across the way. As far as I am concerned, every good experience that I have had in this college is in spite those people. If it suited them to ruin it for me, they would have done it with a smile on their faces while they told me everything was rosy. Everywhere I go when I finish here, I will make every attempt to ensure that the money they have invested in updating their image will be money wasted.

The_Minister

As I was leaving UCD, I saw a massive rat crawling along the steps.
Add that to your list.

Spectator#1

The Minister wrote:

As I was leaving UCD, I saw a massive rat crawling along the steps.
Add that to your list.

That was me you bastard, got a problem?

Chakar

Spectator#1 wrote:

That was me you bastard, got a problem?

ROLF!

Blush_01

Where? Does he have his didgeridoo with him? Or two little boys and their wooden horses?

The rat problem in UCD is disgusting.

Sangre

Thats why they cut down loads of vegitation last year or the year before.

I've a genuine question, if UCD is turning into a 'money-making' machine who does this benefit and why is the pressure being put on to do this? Its not like there are share-holders. It also can't be the government, why would they focus on UCD only?

Tbh, I think these changes are a result of UCD desperately trying to get a foothold on the international rankings and not to do with profit.

Spectator#1

Sangre wrote:

I've a genuine question, if UCD is turning into a 'money-making' machine who does this benefit and why is the pressure being put on to do this? Its not like there are share-holders. It also can't be the government, why would they focus on UCD only?

Tbh, I think these changes are a result of UCD desperately trying to get a foothold on the international rankings and not to do with profit.

That's a fair point. You have to admit though that money seems to have been a guiding factor in the decisions that they're making.

As far as I know the idea is that individual schools will eventually become financially independent, that's why Early Irish got the boot. The Vet hospital is now expected to pay for itself, which is ****ing ridiculous because what needs to be assured first and foremost is that the hospital is well equipped and staffed in order to ensure a high standard of education.

This isn't to mention pay parking, the building of a large conference centre on campus and the courting of big businesses to sponsor courses. Brady even referred to himself as the CEO of a corporation in his application for a raise. I don't really see what the point would be of explicitly turning a university into a business if the goal wasn't to make some money.

I'd say you're right to a certain extent. Competition is a big part of the changes they're making, and apparently turning the university into a business is what is needed to compete, but I don't see the point of competing if there isn't some kind of payback involved. In fairness, the college has been a money making machine for Brady already, massive extensions to his (house) and an application for a raise that nearly doubles his salary, I hope he doesn't get it.

Either way, they've ****ed the college up whether it's for money or for competition. Even if it wasn't for money it'd still be just as bad.

BKtje

More money UCD has, the more money is there to provide student facilities in the future. Conference centre and sponsors sponsoring courses will bring in money which can be used for the above and to help schools become financially independant. Surely this is fair enough? I mean if for example the Vet college got 10% of the funds but only had 2% of the students it would mean that while the vet students gained, the rest of the student body would loose out on improvements for their school since majority of money spent elsewhere.
I don't think it will ever be possible for a lot of schools to be totally financially independant but if an attempt is made i think its for the best.

If you look at the Quinn building (only one thats sponsored atm?) its fantastic. High quality projectors, spacious clean and modern rooms, laptop areas etc etc.

I don't follow stuff too closely in UCD tbh so this is more from a casual observance than indepth knowledge.

Stepherunie

Radiography had all its equipment part sponsored by GE because UCD wouldn't/couldn't afford to pay for brand new equipment for us, and this was after our staff lobbying them for ages for more money.

It seems public private partnership isn't a half bad idea other wise it would have been a brand new building, second hand equipment. Woot to that.

humbert

What does the college have to trade for sponsorship, or is it just philanthropy?

Stepherunie

From what I understand, GE use the room during the summer and when not in use by students/staff for training purposes.

Though I've never seen them around during term time, can't comment on the summer.

TheVan

I'd just like to point out the positives of the "new" UCD:

1. The quality of lecturers being attracted is improving dramatically; in law for example, Colin Scott, Imelda Maher, Joseph McMahon and Oonagh Breen are of the highest quality
2. The rebranding is increasing the points, increasing the quality of student and thus increasing the quality of the degrees
3. A comprehensive building programme has seen buildings like Conway, the new Med building and res like Roebuck and Glenomena
4. Societies, while different to what they may have been in the past, are still strong and vibrant and an integral part of UCD life
5. UCD has taken on initiative such as broadband, fair trade etc
6. Initiatives like the Elements restaurant are improving the quality of food in UCD, admittedly a bit pricey but quality nonetheless

Obviously that's not an exhaustive list, and undoubtedly mistakes have been made but in general, I think UCD is moving in the right direction.

humbert

TheVan wrote:

I'd just like to point out the positives of the "new" UCD:

1. The quality of lecturers being attracted is improving dramatically; in law for example, Colin Scott, Imelda Maher, Joseph McMahon and Oonagh Breen are of the highest quality
2. The rebranding is increasing the points, increasing the quality of student and thus increasing the quality of the degrees
3. A comprehensive building programme has seen buildings like Conway, the new Med building and res like Roebuck and Glenomena
4. Societies, while different to what they may have been in the past, are still strong and vibrant and an integral part of UCD life
5. UCD has taken on initiative such as broadband, fair trade etc
6. Initiatives like the Elements restaurant are improving the quality of food in UCD, admittedly a bit pricey but quality nonetheless

Obviously that's not an exhaustive list, and undoubtedly mistakes have been made but in general, I think UCD is moving in the right direction.

I think the first three are good points. Have no idea who those lecturers are though. The moving of the meds has been planned since the dark ages but still positive.

However societies are not "still strong and vibrant", they've been taking a hammering by any account I've heard. In general the social side of campus life is awful and that's in comparison to other colleges.

Broadband, em, fair enough they were prompt(I think this may have something to do with them sitting on some main line) but it's 2007, every college has broadband. Oh and fair trade had nothing to do with the college authorities and was a struggle to make happen from what I've heard.

The food situation in UCD is appalling, it's a massive college and should have a LOT of pulling power when bring food outlets to the campus. There's no excuse for the overpriced shit on campus.

Blush_01

They have Apache in UCC.

If we're heading towards being the Irish Harvard... well, although Harvard is Ivy League, it has the highest suicide rate of any uni in the US, doesn't it? Plus, it's focus is research, not teaching. So *shrug* I dunno.

Spectator#1

B-K-DzR wrote:

More money UCD has, the more money is there to provide student facilities in the future. Conference centre and sponsors sponsoring courses will bring in money which can be used for the above and to help schools become financially independant. Surely this is fair enough? I mean if for example the Vet college got 10% of the funds but only had 2% of the students it would mean that while the vet students gained, the rest of the student body would loose out on improvements for their school since majority of money spent elsewhere.

The way you put it there, yes, I think it would be a good thing. The problem is, when you put such an emphasis on financial independence, other very important things like educational impartiality and the availability of speciality courses become compromised. This is what my problem is here. This is presumably why Early Irish got the cut at the start of this year.

Coca Cola sponsor the BESS School in Trinity as far as I know. Not that I think that they would try to influence the sort of material covered in the school but does it not seem a little bad that such a massive corporation have such a stranglehold over our educational facilities? Surely third level education should be independent of this sort of reliance on money? Surely education should come first? This has nothing to do with poiltical or economic views on global corporations or anything like that, my concern lies purely with education in this matter, before people start calling me a commie.

Plus, I don't see a problem with 2% of the students getting 10% of the finances if that is what is required, provided that money is available and the others don't have to shut down because of it. Subjects like the Arts, Legal and Business courses don't require quite as much of a budget as ones like Vet, Science, Engineering and Medicine (and a few others). Equipment, facilities and practical costs are obviously going to be much higher in those schools in order to adequately provide for the education.

Perhaps a vet student could elaborate on what the situation is there?

EDIT: Sorry, went and clarified this with a friend in vet, I was wrong there, the vet hospital is actually not expected to pay for itself. Maybe I dreamed that. Apologies to all involved.

UCD 1 - Spectator 0.

Sangre

TheVan wrote:

I'd just like to point out the positives of the "new" UCD:

1. The quality of lecturers being attracted is improving dramatically; in law for example, Colin Scott, Imelda Maher, Joseph McMahon and Oonagh Breen are of the highest quality

Firstly Oonagh Breen has been here for donkeys year, she just had one or two years off recently.

Secondly, Joesphy McMahon? Seriously?

If we're heading towards being the Irish Harvard... well, although Harvard is Ivy League, it has the highest suicide rate of any uni in the US, doesn't it? Plus, it's focus is research, not teaching. So *shrug* I dunno.

Maybe but the college also gives its undergrads a degree whose reputation puts students leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else in the job market in the US and abroad. It also attracts huge research funds which benefits students and it has the highest quality equipment.

The benefits of an internationally regarded degree cannot be overemphasised, especially in an increasingly globalised economy.

cast_iron

Well what can I say, your LC forum thread now lies where it belongs.

TheVan

Sangre wrote:

Firstly Oonagh Breen has been here for donkeys year, she just had one or two years off recently.

I know Oonagh Breen has been around but do you really think she would have come back to UCD from Yale if the college hadn't been going through reforms?

Sangre

yes. no doubt she wasn't 'leaving yale' but returning to Ireland. Do you really think she was on the phone talking to the faculty going 'oh wow, 2 exam sessions in a year, go stuff yourself Yale!'.

themole

Semesterisation is a good thing, i can only struggle to wonder why it has taken ucd so long to do this. I did my degree in Electronic and Computer Eng in NUIG starting in 1999, and even then most of my courses were semesterised.

I am currently in UCD doing a PhD in computer science.

Its hard for me to say how UCD has changed, while i have been here during the changes i'm a postgrad so most of them didn't affect me. My department just changed its name to "School of computer science and informatics", no real change there. But talking to other postgrads in different schools things have changed for them. I was talking to one guy, forget which school, and he was saying his department was not part of another school and that it sucked because they have less control and its harder to get access to money. I then said well wasn't that the point of the restructuring? to save money and use staff more efficiently. Of course things will seem to degrade if your school has been merged, if thought of only in a selfish way. But making the university more lean is a good thing.

Money has to be thought about. The college does need to attract more investment and even generate its own income through the commercialisation of research. This of course has to be balanced. While its right to expect the likes of Engineering and Science to be able to do this, it not really a possibility in the Arts fields, but they also need less money so it could all balance out.

UCD is a large entity. Its only to be expected that there would be administrative problems.

The focus on research is because thats how a college gets known and attracts lecturers, and this feeds back into attracting students. Its much harder to measure teaching.

Spectator#1

cast_iron wrote:

Well what can I say, your LC forum thread now lies where it belongs.

No, you can't say that. Pick something else.