Racism and the Travelling Community

OHP

Why do ye do this? If a Garda, a soldier, a solicitor, a plumber, a taxi driver, a un- married mom, a teenager, a priest, and a doctor. Whoever! Does anything wrong. Everyone automatically segregates them and everyone automatically sorts them into groups. Everyone should not be tarred with the same brush. And everyone is an individual. If a person committed a crime, then THEY should be on trial. Not there whole community. Not all tinkers, not all Garda, not all plumbers, not all priests etc. are responsible for one or more person’s actions. It is like saying Dublin is the biggest DUMP in Ireland and everyone that lives in Ireland is responsible for it.

CreepingDeath

OHP wrote:

Everyone should not be tarred with the same brush. And everyone is an individual.

Yeah, I agree.
I'm sure there's some very polite drug dealers and thieves out there, who are good to their mothers, and always stop their car to let old people cross the road. The "ordinary decent criminals" of Ireland.
Let's not tar them with the same brush as the violent drug dealers and thieves.

mountainyman

I don't mind them. I worked in a Champion sports and they were in there all the time. They weren't any worse than anyone else.

I think alot of the dislike of them is resentment and envy.
By the way who decides who gets to be Traveller spokeperson.

MM

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

Yeah, I agree.
I'm sure there's some very polite drug dealers and thieves out there, who are good to their mothers, and always stop their car to let old people cross the road. The "ordinary decent criminals" of Ireland.
Let's not tar them with the same brush as the violent drug dealers and thieves.

Your just Nit-Picking now and trying to keep the argument going. So what class do I/we put you into and how many people can I/we blame? All I am going to say to you is this. Every person is an individual. And some of these individuals do the wrong thing. They might be part of a family, a group or whatever. But you cannot segregate one person and then place him/her into a group and then blame the whole group. If you commit a crime, is your whole family to blame? There are loads of people in Ireland that have friends, loved ones, family from all walks of life, in Jail. So are all these people that are related to or belonging to a group, in some way, to blame for his/her crime?

DublinWriter

OHP wrote:

Why do ye do this? If a Garda, a soldier, a solicitor, a plumber, a taxi driver, a un- married mom, a teenager, a priest, and a doctor. Whoever! Does anything wrong. Everyone automatically segregates them and everyone automatically sorts them into groups.

Didn't you get the memo that said Ireland is now an economy and not a nation anymore? It's called marketing demiographics.

CreepingDeath

OHP wrote:

...you cannot segregate one person and then place him/her into a group and then blame the whole group.

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

The truth of the matter is that "racism" is just another word for an unflattering stereotype of a group of people.
We have stereotypical views of travellers.
The concept of a stereotype is extremely useful in human society... it lets us vaguely predict the actions of people from other groups.
This is an essential skill for social interaction and sometimes even survival.

Drug addicts, angry protesters, rioters, streetgangs... they're all stereotypes... with associated bad traits.

Travellers have a well earned stereotype, and it's not a flattering one.
It's risk versus reward.... there's no reward in letting your guard down, and plenty of risk. In the course of my life, I've had 3 bad incidents (robbery, road rage) with travellers, and that doesn't include other anecdotes heard first-hand from friends.

Does it mean that "some" travellers are labelled unfairly.... yes.
Does it mean that I have to trust the majority of them..... no.

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

Tha Gopher

simu wrote:

Because it doesn't matter. The legal system applies to individual criminals, not the social groups they come from.

The question asked was basically why we dont all have a suspicious view of Cork people. The answer being that if they made up 80% plus of our prisoon population we most likely would think they were all a bit dodgy.

In an ideal world we could choose were our taxes are spent. The likes of Hobbes and company could allow their tax to fund traveller dole, child benefit for families that keep dropping kids for cash, the purchase of expensive land in Dublin to build halts (some case recently of something like 4 million worth of land bought to house 8 families. Disgraceful), incarceration/legal aid/general court costs, nuisance prosecutions of the likes of Padraig Nally (I wonder how much money the state spent on convicting and sending him to prison for sorting a problem that the justice system seemingly wanted nothing to do with), let the do gooders pay for all that. Put my money into roads, hospitals affordable hosuing costs i.e. helping WORKING people priced out of the market get a foot on the ladder. Some of the views expressed on this and other traveller threads disgust me beyond words tbh. Seems to be a load of rich kids with absoloutely no experience with the issue they are debating, and with total contempt for the working classes.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

I notice the most vocal pro voices in the thread have went silent since the comparison to traveller incarceration and the population of Cork was highlighted. Im not suprised :rolleyes:

Actually I have you on ignore and I am only reading the posts now (as someone pointed me to it). I have you on ignore mainly because nearly all your posts go on about "Hobbes and co...", which your arguments are directed at me rather then debating the issue. Hence ignore.

So if I was "being quiet" it is because I hadn't read this thread since April as these threads tend to end up going the same way with the usual mis-informed BS.

Btw your still on ignore so don't expect a response to anything you say anytime soon.

wrote:

True it is like saying the Nazis were german ergo all germans at the time were nazis.

Which is exactly what is happening here. For example in the late 80's someone who lived in Darndale was considered a criminal. It didn't matter who they were or background, you were less likely to get a job if you lived in Darndale because of a small percentage of criminal element in Darndale. Similar in Coolock. I knew many people around that time that had to use other family member addresses when applying for jobs. They wouldn't even get a look in as the doors were already closed to them. Many of them would be on benefit as well because of this.

Maybe those with so many negative experiences should be asking themselves prehaps they are part of the reason.

Zombrex

Tha Gopher wrote:

You dont find many travellers in work/college, so where in the hell can you get aquainted.

Is that not the point?

You don't know enough travelers to form a proper opinion of them as a single group. The only time you would probably register even meeting a traveler is when one of them is doing something negative you would notice. Hence you will associated the ones you see doing these things with the whole.

The reality of course is that you have no idea how many of them are actually scumbags and how many aren't.

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

I do not have any logic to be honest. Just common sense. If you adopt a child say 4 or 5 months old from any race colour or walk of life. That child will adapt to your way of thinking, your way of life and your behaviour. And he or she will become a raciest, because of you and your influence on them. The simple fact is, everyone was born not so equal as others. but that does not make everyone unequal to everyone else. At the end of the day we are all human so if you’re going to tar anyone, then tar everyone. And sharks were here way longer than you were. You and I have taken taken their natural home from them, so it is natural they react, I honestly think this thread should die now.

OHP

OHP

Wicknight wrote:

Is that not the point?

You don't know enough travelers to form a proper opinion of them as a single group. The only time you would probably register even meeting a traveler is when one of them is doing something negative you would notice. Hence you will associated the ones you see doing these things with the whole.

The reality of course is that you have no idea how many of them are actually scumbags and how many aren't.

Really good point there. And I agree with you.

OHP

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

Enough said...

OHP

billy the squid

micmclo wrote:

Have you ever been called a "buffer"? I have.

Hmmm...., travellers calling a settled person a derogatory generic name that they can apply to all settled people. This must mean the travellers who called me a buffer are racists.

I assuming the posters know what a buffer is.

Being called a buffer isn't derogatory. It is simply cant for settled person.

billy the squid

CreepingDeath wrote:

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

Would you support the complete eradication of all sharks based on the fact that a few have attacked humans? Would you condone seking out hand destroying sharks, or would you only destroy the ones who posed a danger to humans?

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

White supremacists will say racism is a self-defence mechanism against the "negro" what is your point. Racism is Racism, it has no justification.

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Actually I have you on ignore and I am only reading the posts now (as someone pointed me to it). I have you on ignore mainly because nearly all your posts go on about "Hobbes and co...", which your arguments are directed at me rather then debating the issue. Hence ignore.

So if I was "being quiet" it is because I hadn't read this thread since April as these threads tend to end up going the same way with the usual mis-informed BS.

Btw your still on ignore so don't expect a response to anything you say anytime soon.

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make. As said before, I find your opinions highly offensive to normal working class people and victims of traveller anti social behaviour. If you refuse to answer legitimate questions why bother taking part in the debate? "Im not talking to him, he wasnt nice to me".....Im not sure if its more funny or plain pathetic. Maybe you should put everyone on the thread with an opposing opinion on ignore, make it a lovely "the travellers, a grand bunch of lads" thread written by a group of people who largely have had zero contact with them.

Billy- is cant even a language? If it is, where can I learn it? Personally Ive never heard travellers speaking it. Ive heard them speak a thick form of English that is difficult to understand and has some slang I wouldnt get, but its more a dialect than a language far as Im aware. People from Cork speak with a thick accent and have local words. How come Corkonian isnt considered a language? And who decides what slang is derogatory? Buffer isnt offensive? Why is pikey offensive then? Or knacker? Is Pavee alright? Again, one rule for us, one for them.

Wicknight- the incarceration figures speak for themselves, end of. I took a quick flick through a book on some of Irelands most notorious young offenders the other day, probably about one in five case studies were traveller children. But hey, Im sure the author picked those five out of a pool of 50,000 ultra violent settled kids he could have studied, eh? This thread has not yet seen one decent argument against the majority of settled people being prejudiced against travellers. Figures show that they are far more likely to commit crime. How in the name of god can you counter this? Here is an honest question- if you were a taxi driver, would you run a group of 3 lads to Dunsink? Only last night in Tallaght some traveller drunk driver mowed down two tourists. As those of you who remember that poor kid almost killed by them in the car crash and later hounded out of the area its not the first, and probably wont be the last.

billy the squid

If you are looking for a linguaphone cassette on Cant I do not think you will find one. and just because there may not be an official written record of the language does not make it ilegitimate.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote:

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make. As said before, I find your opinions highly offensive to normal working class people and victims of traveller anti social behaviour. If you refuse to answer legitimate questions why bother taking part in the debate? "Im not talking to him, he wasnt nice to me".....Im not sure if its more funny or plain pathetic. Maybe you should put everyone on the thread with an opposing opinion on ignore, make it a lovely "the travellers, a grand bunch of lads" thread written by a group of people who largely have had zero contact with them.

What makes you think you speak for the working classes? I happen to be both working class and not bigoted against travellers. *Shock* I've worked in shops where I served travellers on a daily basis. Some were pricks, most weren't. Again shock, they are people. I mean if you came into a business I worked in I'd probably think you were a complete assho!e, but I wouldn't suddenly start hating all internet users or settled people.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make.

Nope just because all your arguments use me as an example. When you can actually formulate an argument without my nick showing up in the sentance or even inferring to me I might pay more attention to what you have to say.

If you refuse to answer legitimate questions

I think your confusing answering legitimate questions and "you".

Billy- is cant even a language? If it is, where can I learn it? Personally Ive never heard travellers speaking it.

Of course if you have never seen or heard it clearly it doesn't exist.

Even a casual research into it I have found it is in fact a recognized language with its own dialects. Cant is a dialect of the Shelta language.

As for where can you learn it.
http://www.rosettaproject.org/archive/sth/view?searchterm=Shelta
http://www.travellersrest.org/sheltanocant990418.htm
http://oldwelshbooks.net/macalisterras1937/

Clearly you took the time to research your question rather then just dismiss it without thinking.

Buffer isnt offensive? Why is pikey offensive then? Or knacker? Is Pavee alright? Again, one rule for us, one for them.

Buffer isn't offensive. Pikey is offensive as is Knacker (and is not traveler dialect as far as I can see).

I took a quick flick through a book on some of Irelands most notorious young offenders the other day, probably about one in five case studies were traveller children.

Whats the book called?

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Nope just because all your arguments use me as an example. When you can actually formulate an argument without my nick showing up in the sentance or even inferring to me...........


Even a casual research into it I have found it is in fact a recognized language with its own dialects. Cant is a dialect of the Shelta language.

As for where can you learn it.
http://www.rosettaproject.org/archive/sth/view?searchterm=Shelta
http://www.travellersrest.org/sheltanocant990418.htm
http://oldwelshbooks.net/macalisterras1937/


Buffer isn't offensive. Pikey is offensive as is Knacker (and is not traveler dialect as far as I can see).



Whats the book called?

1- I dont pick on you, I highlight whoever I think has made the most ridiculous points in the thread. The "why dont we pre-judge Cork people" one having been the best so far.

2- How many people actually speak Shelta according to the census?

3- Who judged pikey/knacker offensive and buffer not? Did pikey only become bad after Snatch was released? From re reading the post it seems you are saying a slang term can only be used if the community itself came up with it to label themselves by. Surely by that logic, if the settled community never referred to themselves as buffers and it was a traveller word for us, then yes, it is offensive?

4- Minor Offences I think was the name of it. Should be in the true crime section of your local Easons.

Brian- good for you, however I think you would agree you are probably in the minority. As pretty much every traveller bar one Ive met has been aggressive, dodgy, or plain rude, and that includes my time in the service sector (the ones in your shop were good. The ones in the takeaway I worked in treated staff like a butler, flicking their fingers for attention, "you there boy!" being a more common attention grabber than "excuse me" or "sorry mate", never with a word of thanks). When working people see them getting payouts for pub admission discrimination and other nonsense we get pretty sick of paying our taxes.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote:

Brian- good for you, however I think you would agree you are probably in the minority. As pretty much every traveller bar one Ive met has been aggressive, dodgy, or plain rude, and that includes my time in the service sector (the ones in your shop were good. The ones in the takeaway I worked in treated staff like a butler, flicking their fingers for attention, "you there boy!" being a more common attention grabber than "excuse me" or "sorry mate", never with a word of thanks). When working people see them getting payouts for pub admission discrimination and other nonsense we get pretty sick of paying our taxes.

Dude I got the same sh!t from my customers, settled or travellers. I have a simple policy, all people are bastardS. I'm pretty equal about my hatred for humanity.

billy the squid

Tha Gopher wrote:

.2- How many people actually speak Shelta according to the census?

Was there an option for shelta on the Census form. I doubt many religious types put latin on their cencus forms, it doesn't mean they cannot speak it.

3- Who judged pikey/knacker offensive and buffer not? Did pikey only become bad after Snatch was released? From re reading the post it seems you are saying a slang term can only be used if the community itself came up with it to label themselves by. Surely by that logic, if the settled community never referred to themselves as buffers and it was a traveller word for us, then yes, it is offensive?

Because buffer is settled person in the Cant language. it is a translation not an insult. Pikey/knacker is not a translation Knacker is an English language word which is used in a way to degrade someone. much in the same way as Queer was used in a way to degrade a gay person. Queer is a legitimate word in the english language, however it is how it is used that determines whether it is insulting or not.

billy the squid

Tha Gopher wrote:

1- I dont pick on you, I highlight whoever I think has made the most ridiculous points in the thread. The "why dont we pre-judge Cork people" one having been the best so far.

2- How many people actually speak Shelta according to the census?

3- Who judged pikey/knacker offensive and buffer not? Did pikey only become bad after Snatch was released? From re reading the post it seems you are saying a slang term can only be used if the community itself came up with it to label themselves by. Surely by that logic, if the settled community never referred to themselves as buffers and it was a traveller word for us, then yes, it is offensive?

4- Minor Offences I think was the name of it. Should be in the true crime section of your local Easons.

Brian- good for you, however I think you would agree you are probably in the minority. As pretty much every traveller bar one Ive met has been aggressive, dodgy, or plain rude, and that includes my time in the service sector (the ones in your shop were good. The ones in the takeaway I worked in treated staff like a butler, flicking their fingers for attention, "you there boy!" being a more common attention grabber than "excuse me" or "sorry mate", never with a word of thanks). When working people see them getting payouts for pub admission discrimination and other nonsense we get pretty sick of paying our taxes.

All one can do is put their head in their hands and say "beda galioon soolia"

InFront

brianthebard wrote:

Dude I got the same sh!t from my customers, settled or travellers. I have a simple policy, all people are bastardS. I'm pretty equal about my hatred for humanity.

I have no doubt but that if everyone adapted this policy of hating all people, all things, universally and equally, it would bring about a huge international wave of peace and pacifism:D

CreepingDeath

OHP wrote:

If you adopt a child say 4 or 5 months old from any race colour or walk of life. That child will adapt to your way of thinking, your way of life and your behaviour.

So you think that travellers as a whole, are equal because... when they were born they had the "potential" to do anything eg. become doctors ?

So what?
Nobody is racist against 5 month old babies.
We're racist against the fully grown versions who were brought up in that deeply disfunctional culture. The ones old enough to commit anti-social behaviour. The unemployed ones who are parasites on Irish social welfare system.

brianthebard

InFront wrote:

I have no doubt but that if everyone adapted this policy of hating all people, all things, universally and equally, it would bring about a huge international wave of peace and pacifism:D

I'm expecting to hear from the Nobel people any day now.

Tha Gopher

billy the squid wrote:

All one can do is put their head in their hands and say "beda galioon soolia"

Eh? Its my fault the traveller customers were ruder than the average Joe? CreepingDeath pretty sums up the reasons for prejudice. I recall from previous posts you are a traveller yourself. Im a north Dubliner from an area that doesnt have the best rep. I have better things to do than defend the actions of the scumbag elements. The likes of Pavee Point seemingly dont, they dont seem to realise that supporting Frog Ward and the Dunsink travellers isnt really good PR. If they want to improve traveller image, maybe they ought to completely disassociate themselves from these type of scumbags. In short, I have absoloutely no problem with decent travellers who have jobs, dont claim and dont commit crime. What I have no time for are the criminals and those who defend them.

billy the squid

Tha Gopher wrote:

Eh? Its my fault the traveller customers were ruder than the average Joe? CreepingDeath pretty sums up the reasons for prejudice. I recall from previous posts you are a traveller yourself. Im a north Dubliner from an area that doesnt have the best rep. I have better things to do than defend the actions of the scumbag elements. The likes of Pavee Point seemingly dont, they dont seem to realise that supporting Frog Ward and the Dunsink travellers isnt really good PR. If they want to improve traveller image, maybe they ought to completely disassociate themselves from these type of scumbags. In short, I have absoloutely no problem with decent travellers who have jobs, dont claim and dont commit crime. What I have no time for are the criminals and those who defend them.

You will also note from previous posts that I hold no truck with scumbag elements, whether they be traveller or settled person.

The only interest Pavee Point had in the Ward/Nally case was seeing that equal justice was served. Everybody wants, and is entitled to equal justice. As far as I am concernedNally killed another man and escaped jail on a technicality, A fair trial was impossible due to the media coverage. but that is a whole different arguement. Pavee Point campaigns for the rights of the traveller, It is no different from any other marginalised group having their advocates and support groups. The homeless and those affected by crooked landlords have threshold, the immigrants have the NCCRI, why should the travellers not have their advocate group?

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote:

Eh? Its my fault the traveller customers were ruder than the average Joe?

Perhaps its because you treat them differently cause they are travellers? Or perhaps your bigoted outlook makes you perceive all the travellers faults in a stronger way than the settle customers? Or perhaps, as I suspect, they are not actually ruder than an average person, since they are in fact, an average joe?

Conar

As much as I hate to say this I am a little more suspicious of travellers than I am of settled people, similar to how I am a little more nervous of people with their hoods up when its not raining. I know most travellers are not bad and I know most people that wear hoods aren't bad but the stereotypes are hard to ignore sometimes.
This is my problem that I need to work on though, not the travelling communities issue.


How do people think the issue can/should be resolved?
Surely its a big enough issue that merrits some attempt at a resolution.

Personally I feel that the government should be doing a lot more to look into exactly how travellers want to fit in to our society and how it can work.
There's obviously a big difference between our cultures but unless we address the issues in a public forum then I don't see anything ever changing.

It seems funny that nationalists and unionists seem to have done a better job of looking past their differences and concentrating on their shared goals than we do with the travellers.

Until we sit down with the travellers and discuss what we expect/want from eachother then I don't see this divide ever changing. This once again brings it back to the governments issue and it is they who should be dealing with this obvious problem.

Tha Gopher

billy the squid wrote:

You will also note from previous posts that I hold no truck with scumbag elements, whether they be traveller or settled person.

The only interest Pavee Point had in the Ward/Nally case was seeing that equal justice was served. Everybody wants, and is entitled to equal justice. As far as I am concernedNally killed another man and escaped jail on a technicality,

As far as Im concerned, Nally executed Ward. Granted he was terrified at the time, but imo the first shot was self defence, the second was either murder or diminished responsibility. However, Ward still deserved his fate. My point is that anyone from the traveller rights side who wants to improve their image should not be campaigning loudly for a fair trial. A career criminal went after an old man, got killed. End of. Pavee Point supporting him and the Dunsink rioters just backs up all the "stereotypes" the settled community have.

Perhaps its because you treat them differently cause they are travellers? Or perhaps your bigoted outlook makes you perceive all the travellers faults in a stronger way than the settle customers?

Maybe. Or it could just be that they are disproportionately anti social and that incarceration fugures back this up. You decide.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

Or it could just be that they are disproportionately anti social and that incarceration fugures back this up. You decide.

I think your full of crap tbh in this regards. Your figures don't add up.

While there are no figures that point to Travelers (if anything no proof they are what you say they are) if you cross referenced prison population demographics vs Traveling community population figures based on age you would find they wouldn't make up the majority at all, and that is only a figure based on the maths of it so it would be a maximum if even that.

Even so you could cross reference against county vs traveler population and even if you were to imagine every person in Prison was a traveler it wouldn't even make them the majority.

And if you ask me to back that up I will as soon as you supply actual evidence to your claim first (I've already done the research. Have you?).

eth0_

Until a few years ago, despite having many negative experiences with travellers, I wasn't quite willing to condemn them all. But then a settled traveller who was working in my company (and on a decent wage) was discovered to have been stealing brand new laptops and other computer equipment from a store and selling them on boards and ebay - and had been doing this for months.

So single handedly this scumbag managed to further bring down his "race" by showing that even when they have an education and a good job, they still feel that helping themselves to other people's property is ok.

DublinWriter

eth0_ wrote:

But then a settled traveller who was working in my company (and on a decent wage) was discovered to have been stealing brand new laptops and other computer equipment from a store and selling them on boards and ebay - and had been doing this for months.

...and of course someone from the settled community would NEVER do such a thing!

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Even so you could cross reference against county vs traveler population and even if you were to imagine every person in Prison was a traveler it wouldn't even make them the majority.

I point you back to the Cork example again. 80%. Checkmate.

I cant find the link from way back after googling it (which I presume means I made it up. Boo-urns). It is, however, in a traveller related thread on feedback from quite a while ago if you care to look (cant search on this browser for some reason). And, as said, seeing as Martin Collins didnt object to the 10% figure quoted on the late late Id have some doubts as to the lower-end accuracy of it. This thread is descending still further into real life vs armchair pundits.

DublinWriter wrote:

...and of course someone from the settled community would NEVER do such a thing!

That one is brought up every time. Nobody ever said settled people arent likely to do it.

irish_bob

Until a few years ago, despite having many negative experiences with travellers, I wasn't quite willing to condemn them all. But then a settled traveller who was working in my company (and on a decent wage) was discovered to have been stealing brand new laptops and other computer equipment from a store and selling them on boards and ebay - and had been doing this for months.

So single handedly this scumbag managed to further bring down his "race" by showing that even when they have an education and a good job, they still feel that helping themselves to other people's property is ok.



travellers are incapable of being straight , even it was in thier interest both financially or socially , they would perfer go crooked, as far as im concerned , travellers see it as a prinicipal of thiers to rip people off

im self employed , i own a hardware business , 2 years ago a man who was clearly a traveller came in to my yard and offered to paint my sheds , his price was quite resonable so i agreed to give him the job
it took him and his men about 2 days , i paid him ( cash of course) and he left
within 6 months the paint was completely gone of the sheds , he had obviously just added a drop of paint to a few barrells of water
painting sheds be it for business men or farmers is a common serivce provided by travellers and more often than not they do a piss poor job
as i said earlier , it is a principal of thiers to rip off people

i tottaly reject the claims that us the settled community dont do enough to make travellers welcome and help them to integrate , travellers choose to isolate themselves from the rest of society , they are as far as im concerned genetically pre disposed to be dysfunctional and crooked , i would not trust a single one of them as far as i could throw them
in relation to the man who painted my sheds again , i had to give him 100 euro more than originally agreed when he had finished the job
this is another cute trick that travellers pull , while i was aware of this i paid him because as many people know if you dont pay a traveller the extra money he wants , he and a bunch of his tinker friends will return later and steal something on you , theyve no decency and no standards and shaking hands with one when you are after agreeing on a deal means absolutley nothing
the sooner they die out in this country the better

Tha Gopher

Indeed bob. Id have to think hard for an example of anyone who I know who gave a traveller a break/chance and didnt get shafted. I know quite a few who took a risk and ended up out of pocket, myself included. Over the past two weeks my experiences of the traveller community consisted of

A family on a communion day out trying to scam a net cafe owner out of the price of two free drinks after one drink they paid for got stuck in the vending machine, leading the father to feckin attack the yoke
Two who stank to high heaven arguing over bus fare (Im not sure I have ever seen a traveller get on public transport without attempting to scam the driver)
And third, the theft of my mothers windscreen wipers, almost certainly by travellers who were in the vicinity

What I hate about the pro side is their hypocracy. For example, you know full well that if, lets say, there were travellers camped in the car park of their local supermarket as used to often happen, that they wouldnt dream of parking anywhere near them, as if they have any intelligence they know they will likely become a victim of the tyre scam (slash your tyres and then offer to repair/replace them at a lower cost than a mechanic would). You know full well that they wouldnt dream of renting property to a traveller. Yet they sit at their computer screens banging on about equality and stereotyping? Get real. The precious figures they demand showing the higher crime rates are out there if you care enough to find them (I dont, personally)

irish_bob

Indeed bob. Id have to think hard for an example of anyone who I know who gave a traveller a break/chance and didnt get shafted. I know quite a few who took a risk and ended up out of pocket, myself included. Over the past two weeks my experiences of the traveller community consisted of

A family on a communion day out trying to scam a net cafe owner out of the price of two free drinks after one drink they paid for got stuck in the vending machine, leading the father to feckin attack the yoke
Two who stank to high heaven arguing over bus fare (Im not sure I have ever seen a traveller get on public transport without attempting to scam the driver)
And third, the theft of my mothers windscreen wipers, almost certainly by travellers who were in the vicinity

What I hate about the pro side is their hypocracy. For example, you know full well that if, lets say, there were travellers camped in the car park of their local supermarket as used to often happen, that they wouldnt dream of parking anywhere near them, as if they have any intelligence they know they will likely become a victim of the tyre scam (slash your tyres and then offer to repair/replace them at a lower cost than a mechanic would). You know full well that they wouldnt dream of renting property to a traveller. Yet they sit at their computer screens banging on about equality and stereotyping? Get real. The precious figures they demand showing the higher crime rates are out there if you care enough to find them (I dont, personally)




you and i gopher live in the real world , we dont have the luxury of that high mindedness on show in here in relation to this topic

carpenoctem

If you adopt a child say 4 or 5 months old from any race colour or walk of life. That child will adapt to your way of thinking, your way of life and your behaviour.QUOTE]

I find this a very good and relevant point. Because it's not like all Travellers are born bad, it's just that a lot of them recieve little to no education (or at least unstable education due to moving a lot), and having poor education in todays world does make it a lot harder to communicate with those who do. Travellers, just like settled people with poor education, are prone to violence and anti-social behaviour because they don't know how to make a statement any other way. Take the example someone used early on of traveller children tending to solve arguments by smacking the other party. They wreen't prone to do that when they were born, they were socialised to find this an acceptable way of ending an argument. Why? Probably because their parents and/or other adults in their life do the same thing. And why do they? Because it is the only way they know how to commmunicate and have the upper hand. Just as I don't walk around smacking people that argue against my points because, hey, I have recieved an education that allows me to argue my point eloquently with words, and feel as if I have the upper hand whilst doing so.

I'm not saying this excuses the behaviour those travellers and settled people who engage in crime and violence, but it does offer an explanation to take into consideration.

Personally, I don't judge travellers - if I found out someone was a traveller I wouldn't automatically think they were bad. I like to give everyone a good chance, no matter how many scumbags there might be in their community.

But I do still believe that the Traveller community, like many minorities in out society, contain far too many bad seeds. I've worked in numerous shop here and have been on the recieving end of much abuse from members of the travelling community (by this, I mean those I KNOW were members of the travelling community, out of the rest I'm sure a lot weren't). In those situations I have just been glad that I have an alarm button behind the till or a security guard by the door in case something nasty happens - but it has at all times been empty threats. As soon as they got the message that I didn't respond to their overbearing behaviour, they usually stopped.

As for my view of travellers and other people's views of them - I think both sides needs to change. As other people have said, it's a bad circle of both sides blaming the other. Ig travellers want us to view them as a valuable part of our society, they need to be a valuable part of our society. And they do need to adapt to the laws of our society.

Tbh, I'm a little sick and tired of the travelling community viewing themselves as a minority and therefore thinking that we should accept a lot of their behaviour, when it would be viewed as very anti-social by others. I live closeby two places frequented by memvers of the travelling community and I am disgusted with the stuff they just leave behind them. Not just garbage, but furniture, fridges, washing machines, car batterys... anything they don't need. Seeing as they do not have to pay the bin tax since they don't have a bin, why can't they pay a few quid to move their rubbish to a dump? After all, that's what we have to do with anything we wanna throw out that doesn't fit in a bin. And really, why in the world should they have the right to put up their home wherever they want because it happens to be mobile? Given, there is probably need for a lot more halting sites, but if they were all used in a proper manner I am sure they would be met with agreement if they asked for one.

Many members travelling community like other minorities need to start viewing themselves as our equals and behave accordingly. They need to get involved in society rather than work against it - they need to adapt and at the same time be give a reasonable chance to do so by us.

No idea how to do this - that's for the people in charge to figure out.