Racism and the Travelling Community

brianthebard

Newaglish wrote:

A mother, her husband and their 12 grown up children, living off benefits.

And you have statistics to show this image accurately represents the majority of travellers, or even a sizeable minority? How about a small minority?

The problem is the way the travelling community reacts to settled people is dependant on how the settled community react to them. There is a lot of hatred and assumptions, like your one above, that are not based in fact. The travelling community is not represented in government, does not have a mainstream voice and is blamed for a lot of things that are simply not true, without being able to defend itself, or be listened to and acknowledged. If the settled community expect to be treated well by travellers then they must treat travellers well-this is a two way street that many settled people are unwilling to acknowledge.

karen3212

I remember having travellers in our school when I was very young. They were laughed at and despised by most of the kids in my year. I honestly don't know how theie parents continued to let them go to our school.

Imagine if the whole class at your child's school attacked and belittled him/her every day, how long would you let your child attend.
Some of the teachers actually encouraged the ostracism hoping I suppose that the parents and community of travellers would realise how intolerant our town was and just move on. We had one teacher that actually told us about the history of the travellers and how they used to bring news all around the country in the old days, he was the first person in authority I met who respected them as a different community.

My point earlier was that if people see something as true, then it is more socially acceptable to say it, as the truth is the truth, and therefore cannot be called racism/predjudice. That was why I compared it to the social acceptability of similar predjudice to Aboriginies in Australia.

DublinWriter

Newaglish wrote:

A mother, her husband and their 12 grown up children, living off benefits.

...of course that never, ever happens in the settled community.

!

GuanYin

As I said before, the main difference (and for me the problem) lies in the fact that while the travelling community acknowledge our culture as distinct and different, the settled community are loathe to even consider that the travelling community have a culture, never mind that it is distinct.

I remember camping in wicklow with a few friends, one of whom was a very experienced outdoorsman. We discovered that there was a traveller family set up about 10 minutes walk from where we were camped.

My friend reckoned that we were safer with them there than by ourselves. He said he always found them to be friendly and respectful and helpful in times of need. Conversely, he said he'd be more worried if he found a group of settled city lads out drinking and camping.


All anecdotal, but in my experience, the wanton violence, the destruction of property, the assaults, the vandalism and the intimidation are all much more widespread among settled people - particularly the youth.

There are obvious communication and social issues between settled and travellers - refuse and littering being the most obvious. But that aside, there is no reason for the widescale degree of prejudice seen in Ireland today.

Newaglish

brianthebard wrote:

And you have statistics to show this image accurately represents the majority of travellers, or even a sizeable minority? How about a small minority?

No, I don't have the statistics. In fact, I don't think any statistics like that are publicly available, and if they are, i'm not certain as to where i'd find them.

All we can work off is anecdotal evidence and common sense. Do you really think that the majority of travellers are in full time employment? Or are self-employed in businesses that are properly registered/incorporated and file bi-monthly VAT returns and annual income tax/corporation tax returns?

brianthebard

I really don't think that the majority of travellers are the criminals that you make them out to be. And its your insistence and that anecdotal evidence is all it takes to tar a groups of thousands that tells me your common sense is a bit too lopsided for my liking.

Newaglish

psi wrote:

As I said before, the main difference (and for me the problem) lies in the fact that while the travelling community acknowledge our culture as distinct and different, the settled community are loathe to even consider that the travelling community have a culture, never mind that it is distinct.

I certainly would acknowledge that they have a distinct culture (albeit not entirely different to ours), I would just be reluctant to class them as an ethnic minority.

I think an important point that seems to be missed sometimes is that the main reason people fear/dislike/are prejudiced against travellers is because of a fear of the criminal activities that they believe travellers are likely to commit.

The counter argument is "But, settled people do it too!". Yes, they do. And they are treated with exactly the same level of prejudice. It's even more tolerated! Start a thread in After Hours about how much you hate skobes/scumbags/whatever and you'll get a lot of people with the same opinions. It might get locked, but that's only because so many similar threads have been done already.

Newaglish

brianthebard wrote:

I really don't think that the majority of travellers are the criminals that you make them out to be. And its your insistence and that anecdotal evidence is all it takes to tar a groups of thousands that tells me your common sense is a bit too lopsided for my liking.

You didn't answer my question.

brianthebard

What you are saying about "scumbags" is somewhat true, its not exactly comparable, people assume that ALL travellers are criminals or likely to steal something from you, that's like saying that the whole settled population are thieves, not people from certain disadvantaged areas that have been labelled by society. Even then there is a chance that people will accept that living conditions, levels of unemployment, education, etc, feed into why people resort to crime, but often settled people think travellers are born criminals. You wouldn't close down a whole town because of a "scumbag" wedding/funeral/van passed through, but that's what happens with travellers. No one is prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.

is_that_so

Like all social problems, they tend to be caused by a minority. Regrettably this can be quite spectacular in the case of the travelling community. Even more regrettable is the fact that there are some within that community who seem to have no shame exploiting opportunities.

There is a deficit of dialogue here as already posted, but I don't believe it is reasonable for one community to demand that their lifestyle be maintained as it always has been. Life has changed so much for all of us, so it is not either reasonable or logical to hold on to all the traditions. The best traditions we would like to keep, others have to change with the times.

I think there are difficulties with a traditional traveller lifestyle that severely impinges on the rest of the community, particularly the litter problems, the anecdotal fraud stories and the occasional violence. That lifestyle also serves to keep the life expectancy of the travelling community low.

Engagement has to work both ways. IMO I think there is still an idea of otherness from both sides. Like everything else change comes from within.

InFront

is_that_so wrote:

Like everything else change comes from within.

Just to pick up on this point; yes ultimately change will come from within, but I don't think that will be the starting point.

I think what needs to happen is a turnaround in attitude. People need to realize that it's not okay to still hold prejudice against an entire ethnic group on grounds of limited experience. It is a blemish on our social conscience to still retain and encourage such a negative, outdated view of ethnic identity.
The settled community is just one community on this island, we have no greater right to be here than travellers. Only by working to ensure that travellers can preserve their community should we go about aiding them to wipe out what is mutually undesirable: unemployment, poverty and poor educational opportunites that give rise to further social problems.

It's election time. Ask your politicians what they are doing to promote social inclusion, how they foster a healthy relationship with the travelling community, who are after all your fellow constituents.

Nevyn

Not if they are not resident long enough at a real address to be registered to vote.

InFront

Well you can't be resident at a non-real address. How long do you need to have lived in a constituency to be registered?
From what I understand, most travellers are no longer particularly nomadic.

Nevyn

No one is a constituent unless they are are on the electorate rolls;
reguardless of thier 'culture'.

Yes they have thier own ways and I don't have an issues with that
or with them living/working in the community.

I do object to them cold calling door to door and before they get to my door looking in the sitting room window and then trying to sell me things which I don't want or at least don't want from a less then reputible business with whom I would have no rights or fall back.

I do object to thier 'culture' lacking certain standards of hygine so that I and my family are greatly discomded due to several out breaks of headlice in the primary school which were traced back by the headmisstress and the health nurse and the socail workers to those children from the settlements.

Do I think those children should not be sent to school ? no
They have a right like all children to be educated and in a safe enviroment with out harrassment.

The thing is they are no longer the only socail grouping which gets the same
negative attitude towards them the romanies are attracting the same views from people. It is not differnt costums or culture that causes the friction in many cases but the beligernt agressive attitude some members of both those
social grouping exhibit which gets them all tarred with the same brush, which is unfortunate.

Blush_01

I have had a number of very bad experiences with travellers, always when they were trespassing on our land. Now, to be honest, I wouldn't really give a shít if they were just staying on the land temporarily, then moving on after the week or two as they always do, and taking their refuse with them. But each time they camped on our land they cut off the water supply to the animals in surrounding areas and had water flowing freely in a gushing stream across behind the caravan(s), despite there being a connection they could have very simply disconnected whenever they wanted water. I resented that. When we went to talk to them about it, they threw rocks at my family and I and hit one of us in the head. End result - concussion and stitches.

I have a valid reason to dislike any of the travellers who have camped on our land and caused problems. They total about 50 or 60 over the past few years. I knew travellers who were involved in the youth project in our local town and were therefore involved in various youth club events while I was a teenager, and you couldn't have met nicer girls. They were very, very reserved, but once you got to know them they were lovely.

Travellers keep themselves separate from settled people. That's their prerogative, and they should be respected for following their own way of life. Those who settle should be allowed to do so without prejudice. HOWEVER, I do not see why travellers should follow traveller rules and laws, ignoring settled rules and laws, and get settler's benefits. If the travelling community wants to maintain their distance from the settled community, I have no problem with that. Let them exclude the settled community from their history, literature etc. via language (Gammon/Cant/Shelta changes as settled people begin to recognise words in order to maintain a separation between settled and travelling communities. A programme introduced in Galway to teach primary school children Gammon had to be scrapped because of the outrage it caused. Have any books been written in Cant since Brady's Paveewhack?). Let them follow their own rules and regulations. But if they choose to live outside settled laws, then why should they receive settled benefits? If they contribute nothing in income tax, then why should they be entitled to the benefits experienced by those who pay tax?

I don't care if I come across as being hard. If you want to contribute to a society then you're welcome to be part of it. If not, then that's fine, but be prepared to lose the benefits being in that society brings with it.

InFront

Thaedydal wrote:

No one is a constituent unless they are are on the electorate rolls; reguardless of thier 'culture'.

That's arguable enough on its own, but I fail to see the relevance. Whether they are registered to vote or not, does not mean they have any less of a stake in Irish society, nor does it mean that a politician should not have a definite policy on social inclusion in relation to travellers.

I do object to them cold calling door to door and before they get to my door looking in the sitting room window and then trying to sell me things which I don't want

I have a problem with Caucasian window salesmen doing the very same thing.

traced back by the headmisstress and the health nurse and the socail workers to those children from the settlements.

CSI Style? How exactly can that be said with any accuracy? Headlice can be transmitted from both directions, maybe one of the traveller children picked it up from one of your kids?

Trotter

InFront wrote:

CSI Style? How exactly can that be said with any accuracy? Headlice can be transmitted from both directions, maybe one of the traveller children picked it up from one of your kids?

Your constant playing of devils advocate is becomming ridiculous. What classroom background do you have to assume that tracing it was difficult?

It is actually very easy to figure out where an outbreak starts. Very easy. I wont go into the details because its off topic, but your blind defence throughout this topic has been very clear. Debating with someone who's opinion is fixed regardless is futile.

Have you had any interaction with a classroom including members of the travelling community? In my experience, hygiene has always been an issue. Clean hair is what lice prefer, but its normal to treat them immediately. It becomes a major issue when it is clear to the teaching staff that one or more families are not treating the problem.

You can see them walking when the problem is very very bad.

CSI :rolleyes:

DublinWriter

Thaedydal wrote:

I do object to thier 'culture' lacking certain standards of hygine so that I and my family are greatly discomded due to several out breaks of headlice in the primary school which were traced back by the headmisstress and the health nurse and the socail workers to those children from the settlements.

Well that's just a prime example of the prejudice right there. Head lice...dirty travellers...lack of hygiene, etc, etc.

It's a medical fact that head lice prefer clean hair.

Got that? Here's the link to the BUPA website that cross references the current UK NHS data: http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/Mosby_factsheets/head_lice.html

...and here's the direct quote from the site just in case you missed it...

Head lice can be found in all types and lengths of hair. It is a common mistake to associate head lice with dirty hair.

The traveller friends I made never had dirty hair and took great pride over their overall appearance. I've also known one or two Irish Jewish people too, and they didn't have big noses either.

InFront

Trotter wrote:

Your constant playing of devils advocate is becoming ridiculous.

What makes you think that I'm playing devil's advocate? Is it that hard to believe that not everybody feels comfortable with making sweeping generalisations about travellers, or shares your opinions about their hair hygiene?

What classroom background do you have to assume that tracing it was difficult? It is actually very easy to figure out where an outbreak starts. Very easy. I wont go into the details because its off topic

Go right ahead, it can't be worse than some of the other comments so far.
When I was in primary school I caught headlice, and so did my twin brothers. I don't think there is any shame in contracting such a problem. If you were to follow me home one evening and saw my brothers with itchy hair, you'd have assumed that this was the source of the problem. As it happens it wasn't, but it would have been an easy assumption to come to.

They didn't come to my house, but I wonder if the public health nurse and the social worker called to Thaedydal to inspect her hair?

Nevyn

Right do any of you lot have children in schools and how how the assment and checking for head lice is done ?
cos it looks to me like ye have not got a flaming clue between you and are talking out your hats about it.

I am not saying that they are dirty or that all traveler;s have headlice but
that some don't see the point of elmitinating it and just accept them as part of life which for the rest of soictey it is not accpetible and steps are taken
to rid them from children and homes.

It is a culture clash which has a negative impact which was why I choose that example.

simu

Gawd... this thread reminds me of Borat and the Jews. Except that Borat was a piss-take.

Some travellers break the law and some might be a bit rough but that does not make it right to make blanket statements about the lot of them.

Basic ethics, no?

simu

Thaedydal wrote:

Right do any of you lot have children in schools and how how the assment and checking for head lice is done ?
cos it looks to me like ye have not got a flaming clue between you and are talking out your hats about it.

I am not saying that they are dirty or that all traveler;s have headlice but
that some don't see the point of elmitinating it and just accept them as part of life which for the rest of soictey it is not accpetible and steps are taken
to rid them from children and homes.

It is a culture clash which has a negative impact which was why I choose that example.

Sorry Thaed, but that post seems pretty clueless to me. I've been subjected to lice myself through my younger sister's primary school where the problem keeps recurring because some parents don't follow up on lice elimination procedures properly. None of these people are travellers so it would seem laxness about lice is more common than you imagine.

Nevyn

True it is like saying the Nazis were german ergo all germans at the time were nazis but this thread is about why people in general have the concepts they do of travelers and it may be a case of a few rotten apples but it seems to be enough to be make people think less of the orchard never mind the barrel.

Nevyn

simu wrote:

Sorry Thaed, but that post seems pretty clueless to me. I've been subjected to lice myself through my younger sister's primary school where the problem keeps recurring because some parents don't follow up on lice elimination procedures properly. None of these people are travellers so it would seem laxness about lice is more common than you imagine.

Don't say sorry for disagreeing I'm not going to get cross at you

That may be but the issue locally was as I outlined which had a negatice impact on the school and the parents and the rest of the community until parents were going to pull thier children from the school intil it was tackled.

Until the isolated 'incedents' which prepetuate the notions that travellers are as a social group 'trouble' die off and people learn to look beyond the sterotype I can't see over all attitudes changing, but every time someone has a run in with a bad apple it reinforces the negative sterotypes not only to them put to thier friends and family as well.

simu

Thaedydal wrote:

Until the isolated 'incedents' which prepetuate the notions that travellers are as a social group 'trouble' die off and people learn to look beyond the sterotype I can't see over all attitudes changing, but every time someone has a run in with a bad apple it reinforces the negative sterotypes not only to them put to thier friends and family as well.

True. Although I see that some are trying to combat the negative stereotypes with more positive ones, like those guys who did the calendar. I don't like celebrity culture much but maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if some of those girls who did the calendar did join the "Irish models" set so that when people heard the word "traveller", they didn't automatically think of some negative run-in.

Kinda like the way Gráinne Seoige and other TG4 presenters changed the image of Irish-speakers!

Dontico

Hobbes wrote:

What if we discriminated again Cork people? Would that be acceptable?
.

If there was a common trait that most Cork people had that was different to the way the law tell us to act.

Hobbes wrote:

Actually a very very small percentage of Travellers actually are illegally halting.
.

Statistics? oH wait they are travelers. They dont fill census forms.

Hobbes wrote:

How is that different then a normal person giving a false name and address? For the record though Travellers fall into three areas of what you are suggesting.
.

Ask a detective which group they find hardest to track down.

Dontico

InFront wrote:

I have a problem with Caucasian window salesmen doing the very same thing.

Never met a traveler that wasnt caucasian.

GuanYin

Thaedydal wrote:

I do object to thier 'culture' lacking certain standards of hygine so that I and my family are greatly discomded due to several out breaks of headlice in the primary school which were traced back by the headmisstress and the health nurse and the socail workers to those children from the settlements.

Possibly one of the most unfounded prejudiced and ignorant comments I have ever come across.

Despite what your schools headmistriss told you, headlice are not in any way linked to poor hygene. Quite the opposite in fact, otherwise they wouldn't spread as easily as they do.

Incidently, as a health care worker with 2 years specialty training in epidemiology, I can tell you that anyone who claims they traced an outbreak of headlice is either psychic or a liar. I know which I'm going with.

I'm incredibly surprised and disappointed in seeing this post come from you.

Thaedydal wrote:

Right do any of you lot have children in schools and how how the assment and checking for head lice is done ?
cos it looks to me like ye have not got a flaming clue between you and are talking out your hats about it.

Ermm let me seee...do I know anything about checking for headlice....... :rolleyes:

I am not saying that they are dirty or that all traveler;s have headlice but
that some don't see the point of elmitinating it and just accept them as part of life which for the rest of soictey it is not accpetible and steps are taken to rid them from children and homes.

My god, they're kids. Do you know how hard it is to diagnose anything with a kid? It seems to *me* that your talking out of your hat now.

With the exception of city children, who seem to be raised in a manner that make them more concious of medical ailments, children tend to ignore pain and discomfort. One of the biggest challenges for paediatrics is to catch severe conditions like Crohn's on time, because kids who are used to rough and tumble and discomfort, don't report symptoms.

If there is any statistic to say that headlice is more prevalent in traveller communities (and I have NEVER in 7 years in Irish medical circles seen any data on this) it is most likely because the kids don't report it, not because the people are more accepting.

My god....

Thaedydal wrote:

It is a culture clash which has a negative impact which was why I choose that example.

Your example was a prejudicial farce.

Newaglish

I think what Thaed is trying to say is not that travellers are the source and cause of all headlice outbreaks, but that when there is an outbreak, they do not co-operate it attempting to eliminate it, thus perpetuating the problem.

I actually have no experience in this area myself so can't comment!

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

What if we discriminated again Cork people? Would that be acceptable?


It would be great if you could actually back that up with some proof. I suspect you can't.



How is that different then a normal person giving a false name and address? For the record though Travellers fall into three areas of what you are suggesting.

1. Settled = Fixed abode.
2. Legally settled = Fixed abode.
3. Illegally settled = See earlier comment.



I've been mugged three times in my life by Irish people. Does that mean all Irish are criminals?



I would love to know how you came to that conclusion. They had some traveller group (some new newspaper) on the radio. They mentioned that the majority of travellers do not get any hassle at all until it is found out they are actually a travaller and then it may as well be black in Alabama in the 50's. One of them mentioned her mother has never committed a crime in her life but is followed from shop to stop everytime she goes out.

How would you feel about that if it was your mother and the only reason they were doing it is because someone in your neighbourhood stole from the shop?

We had this kind of guilty by association years ago for Irish people and where they lived. We have (for the most part) grown out of it. Shame we can't of this too.

1- re the start, Cork people are not particularly renowned for criminal behaviour bar some areas on its northside which have a bad rep. Corks population is close to 500,000, around 20% of the population. If they had the same incarceration rate as travellers relative to the population upwards of 80% of prisoners would be from Cork (and thats according to a gov rept some time ago that stated travellers were around 3% of the prison population. The author of that book on travellers released recently stated on the Late Late the true figure was 10%. While I dont know where he got it, Martin Collins was on that night and didnt raise an objection to the comment.

2- Please dont pretend you are not aware of the low attendance in school amongst traveller kids.

3- You have been mugged three times by an ethnic group that until recent years comprised 99% plus of the population. You choose to compare it to a guy saying he has been accosted multiple times by members of a group that makes up under 1% of the population. Keep digging that hole........

I love the way people are asked for proof for their comments but you are prepared to believe this traveller woman on the radio who says her mother was never convicted of a crime in her life. She well may not have been, but how come you believed her without proof but demand it here?

Its been said a trillion times, the travellers are not a race. Many of them are certainly physically distinctive from the settled population, in terms of hair/skin tone and general "look". I think we all know the reason for this of course, however for me to state the obvious would only bring up demands for linked proof to something that has probably never been studied and a possible ban so I shant bother.

The reason there is the unpopularity is that many people simply feel they`re a law unto themselves. As said in a previous post on AH, when Pavee Point sticks up for people at Dunsink who pelt rocks at passing motorists, when they call for a terrified old man who shot dead a piece of filth that, judging by her quick re marriage, even some of the family of the man dont seem to particularly miss, and when they dont have a load to say about, for example, that case of the girl in Tallaght who was nearly killed by a car driven by some lunatics chasing after a rival gang, then tbh nobody could care less. These rights groups seem to be troublemakers and whingers, nothing more.