Cambelt snapped before 60k

Revelation Joe

A friend of mine has a Zafira with 57k on the clock. It was serviced last week (minor service) but the cambelt went today. Opel recommends cambelt changes are done at 60k.
Does she have any case against Opel to get it done free or at reduced cost, even though it's out of warranty?

mike65

Nope, its the nature of a belt that no-one can for certain say when it'll let go. I imagine in the small print, it'll say something like *'belt life dependant on
conditions beyond the control of Opel' etc.

Mike.

bo-bo

cam belt condition can be affected by the amount and type of milage you do (ie lots of short trips tend to be harder on belts). there is no way a manufacturer can be accountable for this unfortunately in your case.

bazz26

How long is the car out of warranty?

You could try but my previous experience of dealing with Opel (especially when the warranty is up) means your on your own and you will get zero help from them.

BTW I think the wording manufacturer's use is that it is a recommended interval. Alfa Romeo recommend their belts be changed at 60k or 70k miles. Anyone who has one will tell you do it every 36k miles.

Opel timing belts have been known to snap at 40k miles.

JHMEG

If the belt was supposed to be changed at 60k or 5 years which ever is sooner (you need to check the exact details), and neither have passed, there is a strong case for a good-will gesture from Opel Ireland to have the belt done. I would ask the garage to ask Opel nicely to finance it.

Guy:Incognito

It can never really be an exact science with regard these things. Ie a car used for 60k miles in a city and one used for 60k miles in the country will most likely have very different lives. The city car could have twice as many running hours as the country car, just from sitting in traffic.



On a similar note, is there a reason, other than financial, that all manufacturers dont use timeing chains? Surely it would be better.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote:

It can never really be an exact science with regard these things. Ie a car used for 60k miles in a city and one used for 60k miles in the country will most likely have very different lives.

Hence most manufacturers will specify two different mileages, a lower one (typically 60k miles/5 years) for "severe conditions", and a higher one (eg 90k miles/7 years) for "normal conditions".

BrianD3

I don't know about Opel, but IIRC there have been posts here before about Ford guaranteeing that timing belts will last the specified mileage/time.

This surprised me as I always assumed any manufacturer would try to wriggle out of guaranteeing these things.

Was the Zafira serviced on time, every time by an Opel dealer? If so, I'd say the chances of getting something out of them are better. There may be a "visual check" of the belt in the Opel service schedule and if this wasn't done it may give them an excuse not to guarantee the belt. One of the things they might look for in the check is evidence of oil leaks from the crank/camshaft seals as oil dripping onto a rubber belt could shorten its life considerably

JHMEG

bazz26 wrote:

Opel timing belts have been known to snap at 40k miles.

Usually only the engines fitted with that faulty plastic idler pulley (part number escapes me), which is replaced with a better one (metal) on the first timing belt change. I have seen a Vectra with a broken belt after 13k miles.

crosstownk

What year is the Zafira? A few years ago GM revised the timing belt interval on a lot of petrol models - some down as far as 34k miles. This is relevant to most of the previous generation models.

Usually, a manufacturer will recommend that the belt is checked at each service and replaced if necessary and they will also have a maximum mileage/time for the belt. It's not unusual for a belt to need replacement before the recommended interval.

If you like, you can chase Opel for warranty but at best they will only contribute to the costs. If you don't have full Opel service history then I imagine that you'll be wasting your time.

bazz26

BrianD3 wrote:

I don't know about Opel, but IIRC there have been posts here before about Ford guaranteeing that timing belts will last the specified mileage/time.

I think it was the chain driven engines rather than belt driven which Ford replaced, afaik the timing chain is guaranteed to last the life time of the engine.

Most manufacturers starting to switch to chains these days.

mike65

I always thought before I had the Merc 190e that chains might be a bit "agricultural" but in fact they are smooth and quiet assuming its looked after.

Mike.

DublinDilbert

mike65 wrote:

I always thought before I had the Merc 190e that chains might be a bit "agricultural" but in fact they are smooth and quiet assuming its looked after.

Mike.

The reason the chains are so reliable "touch wood" is cause they are pretty much covered in oil...

They are usually tensioned based on the oil presure in the engine too... hence at low RPMs minimal tension is put on the chain, but as RPMs increase, so does the oil presure, hence the tension also increases to stop the chain knocking around, I sure this also helps increase the life of the chain...

Where as the good aul timing belt is kept at the same tension no matter what the engine speed is, this must leed to extra wear on the belt, as the tension applied must be enough for the range of RPMs which the engine operates over...

I know alot of vecta's had problems with time belts snapping early ( not sure if it was the plastic pullys breaking up or the belt ), but i thought they would of sorted that out...

Revelation Joe

Thanks for all those replies.
It is FSH but I don't think it's at an Opel dealer.
I didn't realise that it's actually an '01 - time flies!

Looks like a no-go then, but there's no harm in trying!

unkel

Stekelly wrote:

is there a reason, other than financial, that all manufacturers dont use timeing chains?

None, as far as I know. A few euro saved off the initial purchase price of the new car, followed by painful and expensive experiences later, even regardless of when you follow the manufacturer's maintenance guide

Mercedes and BMW never used belts afaik. As bazz26 said, there seems to be a tendency for some manufacturers to go chains. I had an early 90s Micra with a chain. Mrs unkel had a late 90s Fiesta with a chain. So if it can work out commercially for even low-end cars, it should be viable for all cars to have chains

crosstownk

Other than financial, a belt is quieter than a chain - or at least it used to be. But with advancements in engine design, chains are now nearly if not as quiet as belts. BMWs, Mercs, some Toyotas and others use chains. The trend seems to be back to chains, thank God. Hell, even a Lada Riva had a chain!!

BrianD3

AFAIK some Toyota Landcruisers have a series of cogs to drive the camshaft from the crankshaft. If a chain is better than a belt then surely the cog arrangement is better still!

IMO consumers are copping on to the fact that timing belts can cause major grief. A glorified rubber band that if it fails, usually wrecks the engine - bit of a risky setup isn't it.

I'd say in 5 year time, most new cars will be using chains.

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote:

Mercedes and BMW never used belts afaik.

The 6 pot M20 engine used up to the BMW E30/E34 320i/520i and 325i/525i (until the early ninetys) used a timing belt.

Do-more

I've got a Zaf and the guy that service's it told me last year that cambelt change intervals had been revised to 40K.

Surely if the car was serviced last week at around 57K the garage servicing it should have advised the owner that a cambelt change was due and the norm would be to have it done with the rest of the service rather than bringing it in, in 3K miles for a cambelt change between services?

Lex Luthor

bazz26 wrote:

Alfa Romeo recommend their belts be changed at 60k or 70k miles. Anyone who has one will tell you do it every 36k miles.
.

The manual on the 156 stated it was 72k mile intervals but after a few yrs they sent out an updated bulletin to all the UK dealers to change at 36k. That information never got to the dealers over here but seemed to have filtered through by non-official channels.

Regardless,, of which, I think any case here of a belt snapping before 72k miles was not covered by Alfa.

If like Do-More says that Opel had been informed of the revised change, I would think they have a good case if it wasn't done last week at 57k

DublinDilbert

crosstownk wrote:

Other than financial, a belt is quieter than a chain - or at least it used to be. But with advancements in engine design, chains are now nearly if not as quiet as belts. BMWs, Mercs, some Toyotas and others use chains. The trend seems to be back to chains, thank God. Hell, even a Lada Riva had a chain!!

Crosstownk,

Almost all cars had chains up untill the late 70's early eighties, the reason was that the cam shaft ran along the side of the engine and there was a series of push rods which ran vertically up the engine to actuate the tappets/valves. In this case the chain was relativly short, say about 10 inches between the crank shaft and cam shafts. These never gave problems, as they were sitting in oil, my fist car ( 1.2 opel cadet '85 ) still had this sort of set up.. .

In the '80 "over head cam shafts" became the rage, now they needed to span a much large distance, from the crank shaft to the cam shaft, probably about 24 inches. The general feeling was that it would be very difficult to do this with a chain, due to having such a long chain and keeping tension on it... so everyong went to belts for OHC. also alot of the early engines with OHC were not interferance type engines, so if the belt snapped, you aligned the timing marks pop on a new belt and away you go! ( i done this recently on a 924 porche after the belt snapped )

Along came the '90 the car makers started looking at the timing chaing again, and trying to solve the problem with keeping the correct tension on it, over the operating range of the engine, which isn't an easy task... they all tension them based on the oil presure in the engine as far as i know. BMW's around the early to Mid '90s started appearing with timing chains again, my '96 E36 had one, i think the BMW M43 changed to a chain in 1994.

I guess in summary:-

Timing chains ( but very short ones ) --> Timing belts ( but they break ) --> Timing chains ( tensioned with oil presure )


Thats the story as far as i know it, but what would i know I'm an electroincs head...

How many cogs are there in a land cruser?? there must be lots to span that distance?? :S


On an aside, my 318i E46 was getting very very sluggish and before the engine would warm up there was no power in it ( would kinda chug some times ), yesterday i removed the Mass flow sensor, cleaned it with a q-tip and some switch cleaner (€4 maplin), put it back in, and she is as good as new!! i can't believe the differance... sorry had to tell someone!

Lucifer

Is the zafira a 1.6 or a 1.8?

SouperComputer

the reason was that the crank shaft ran along the side of the engine and there was a series of push rods which ran vertically up the engine to actuate the tappets/valves.

I think you mean camshaft! Ford still use pushrod engines in some models. They are still fairly popular in the US.

BTW, DOHC engines have been around since the early 20's! Although it wasnt used often in road cars until the 60's.

Have to say i'm liking the move back to chains myself. Although it can give a false sense of security if the oil level and condition hasnt been maintained through its life.

ednwireland

petrol primeras all had chains dont know about new shape

Wossack

BrianD3 wrote:

AFAIK some Toyota Landcruisers have a series of cogs to drive the camshaft from the crankshaft. If a chain is better than a belt then surely the cog arrangement is better still!

IMO consumers are copping on to the fact that timing belts can cause major grief. A glorified rubber band that if it fails, usually wrecks the engine - bit of a risky setup isn't it.

I'd say in 5 year time, most new cars will be using chains.

pretty sure the vfr range of motorbikes use timing gears aswell - gives them a great sound, a sort of high pitched whine at high rpms

course the distance thing isnt as big a problem on a bike engine as a car one as mentioned in DublinDilberts (rather excellent) post.

testicle

bazz26 wrote:

BTW I think the wording manufacturer's use is that it is a recommended interval. Alfa Romeo recommend their belts be changed at 60k or 70k miles. Anyone who has one will tell you do it every 36k miles.

Opel timing belts have been known to snap at 40k miles.

Alfa sent out a TSB to change it to 36k. I believe Opel did the same for 40k. I remember on my old Astra having to change it at 40k

JHMEG

testicle wrote:

Alfa sent out a TSB to change it to 36k. I believe Opel did the same for 40k. I remember on my old Astra having to change it at 40k

That's correct re Opel. The owners manual says 80k. The plastic idler pulley is the problem.