17 yr old girl not allowed an abortion

Macha · 30-04-2007 9:02pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0430/missd.html?rss

For how long are young women's fertility rights going to be determined by old men?

Ridiculous

Faith · 30-04-2007 9:10pm

I don't understand how the HSE can stop her leaving the country? If that were me, I'd have kept my head down and said I was off to London for the weekend, for a shopping trip.

panda100 · 30-04-2007 9:11pm

From what I can see so far there is no reason why this girl should have been stopped from having a termination. We passed a referendum in 1992 allowing women the freedom to travel between the State and another state for a termination.
However at this stage, it would seem that the HSE has a reason to prevent the girl from traveling to England.Its difficult to comment without all the facts. We must not forget that Proffessor Drumm is a renowned paediatrican andwouldnt make this decision lightly.

cormie · 30-04-2007 9:12pm

Maybe there is no risk of suicide yet, but perhaps if she gives birth and sees her child die that will trigger emotions in her and she may take her life then.

Crucifix · 30-04-2007 9:13pm

Can they really confine her to the state? Not providing an abortion is understandable, but surely if she wants to go on holidays to england for a spell that's her business?

biko · 30-04-2007 9:13pm

So now she has to carry the child 5 months so it can die after birth. Fecking terrible.

The girl is in the care of the HSE and is challenging its decision to contact gardaí and not to let her travel for the abortion unless she presented as a suicide risk.

This is the loophole they tried to close a while ago isn't it?

green123 · 30-04-2007 9:16pm

why is she even asking ?
if she wants to do it why doesnt she just go do it ?

panda100 · 30-04-2007 9:16pm

Crucifix wrote:

Can they really confine her to the state? Not providing an abortion is understandable, but surely if she wants to go on holidays to england for a spell that's her business?

Not a 17year old in state care especailly since it sounds like she has had quite an unstable upbringing. There would be outrage if the HSE allowed her to fly around the world willy nilly.
Also Im assuming she hasnt flown over to England herself as abortions and flights are expensive. So If she was to have a termiantion she would have to have financial support from the HSE.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 30-04-2007 9:28pm

this is awful. surely even most pro-lifers would be appauled by this

rainbow kirby · 30-04-2007 9:29pm

And this is another reason why abortion should be safe and legal in this country.

daveirl · 30-04-2007 9:33pm

This post has been deleted.

Faith · 30-04-2007 9:35pm

The child isn't going to live. No matter what, it's going to die one way or another: either via an abortion, or in a few months. Why not permit her to have to abortion and spare her the emotional trauma that she's going to go through? It all sounds ridiculous.

Hagar · 30-04-2007 9:39pm

taconnol wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0430/missd.html?rss

For how long are young women's fertility rights going to be determined by old men?

Ridiculous

Emotive statement, but ultimately isn't the law of the land equally determined by all voters, men and women alike?

humbert · 30-04-2007 9:54pm

Hagar wrote:

Emotive statement, but ultimatelt isn't the law of the land equally determined by all voters, men and women alike?

While I'm not saying the statement is correct is wasn't the voters that made this specific decision.

I would like to get some clarification as to what grounds the HSE can hold someone in the country. I presume it's because she's 17 and in their care?

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 10:06pm

how iunderstand it is the girl is under the car of the hse...ie they are her guardians(for whatever reason) until she is 18...............that is how they can stop her going i think maybe im wrong but all the news bulletins said "she is under the care of the hse" so thats what i take that to mean

it is a disgrace putting her threw the birth etc when the child has no chance at all

Hagar · 30-04-2007 10:07pm

As a rule the populace don't vote on individual cases, we vote in people who we trust to represent our wishes. If we find that they are not do that we vote them out. Since the HSE was established by our elected representatives it is by extension carrying out the stated wishes of majority of the voters in the State. There will always be a minority who do not wish to abide by the law of the land, the question is how far do we go in allowing them to usurp the rule of law?

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 10:08pm

Hagar wrote:

Emotive statement, but ultimately isn't the law of the land equally determined by all voters, men and women alike?

Hagar wrote:

As a rule the populace don't vote on individual cases, we vote in people who we trust to represent our wishes. If we find that they are not do that we vote them out. Since the HSE was established by our elected representatives it is by extension carrying out the stated wishes of majority of the voters in the State. There will always be a minority who do not wish to abide by the law of the land, the question is how far do we go in allowing them to usurp the rule of law?

i dont see any law that prevents citizens from leaving the country

Hagar · 30-04-2007 10:17pm

I'm not a lawyer but if abortion is illegal in Ireland, to protect the right of the unborn, and if the young girl has stated her intent publically in Ireland then the HSE are bound to try to prevent the abortion by whatever means are at their disposal.

Macha · 30-04-2007 10:19pm

Hagar wrote:

Emotive statement, but ultimately isn't the law of the land equally determined by all voters, men and women alike?

Individual cases are dealt with differently in the courts. It is no secret that the majority of judges are male and older, rather than younger.

Take for example the X Case in 1992. Initially the 14 year old rape victim was prevented from leaving Ireland for an abortion. It was only after a public outcry that the Supreme Court overturned the original injunction and she was allowed to go to England.

I think it is ultimately the woman's, even if she is under 18.

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 10:23pm

Hagar wrote:

I'm not a lawyer but if abortion is illegal in Ireland, to protect the right of the unborn, and if the young girl has stated her intent publically in Ireland then the HSE are bound to try to prevent the abortion by whatever means are at their disposal.

are the gardai legally bound to stop you from travelling if they find out you are going to amsterdam to buy hash and smoke their or to use hookers?????

even if they are

panda100 wrote:

We passed a referendum in 1992 allowing women the freedom to travel between the State and another state for a termination.

therefore the hse have nothing to do with it

Hagar · 30-04-2007 10:26pm

If that is the case then I stand corrected the HSE should not interfere.

humbert · 30-04-2007 10:29pm

In this case though the unborn is guaranteed a prompt and certain death but the HSE is forcing a fragile young girl to go through with the pregnancy. They may be following the strict letter of the law but all that proves is that the law didn't foresee this eventuality because there is no ethical defence for this course of action.

Also I believe a person who goes to England to get an abortion is breaking no law, in the same way I can go to the Netherlands and smoke weed without breaking any law, but I'm open to correction on that.

EDIT: too slow....

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 10:36pm

humbert wrote:

EDIT: too slow....

booyeaaahh

i should add that i dont know if that is what happened in 1992 as i was a mature 7 year old at the time but im assuming it is

edit; just spoke to my pro life extremist father and he said that the referendum did happen but since then a law has been passed giving the unborn child equal rights to the mother which apparently nullifies the referendum

Piste · 30-04-2007 10:39pm

Shouldn't the X case in 1992 have set a precedent what the HSE couldn't overrule if they tried? So why the fuss?

robinph · 30-04-2007 10:57pm

Can she not pop down to one of the embassy's and claim asylum due to being mistreated by the state? They then fly her out and let her get proper medical attention elsewhere.

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 11:02pm

robinph wrote:

Can she not pop down to one of the embassy's and claim asylum due to being mistreated by the state? They then fly her out and let her get proper medical attention elsewhere.

ehhh what???

that would only have even a chance of working if she was a citizen of said embassies country

Boston · 30-04-2007 11:06pm

I don't see the difference between this and a parent refusing to allow a 17 year old to travel(as I recall from when I travelled as a kid i need parental permission). They have the right to stop her as she is in their care. Now why they wish to stop her is another question.

Also pro lifers don't believe that abortion is wrong in all cases. Well some might, but you don't need to adopt such a strict line to be pro-life.

robinph · 30-04-2007 11:07pm

PeakOutput wrote:

ehhh what???

that would only have even a chance of working if she was a citizen of said embassies country

OK so it's a bit far fetched admittedly, but is only along the same lines as any other asylum seekers that come to our shores due to claims of mistreatment if they stay in their own countries.

PeakOutput · 30-04-2007 11:08pm

Boston wrote:

I don't see the difference between this and a parent refusing to allow a 17 year old to travel

well the difference is by extension the hse's opinion is meant to be that of the nations

Boston · 30-04-2007 11:12pm

PeakOutput wrote:

well the difference is by extension the hse's opinion is meant to be that of the nations

How do you make that out? The HSE is a public body but it's actions don't neccessary reflect what the public want, or what they believe to be in the best interest of the public. Theres a different there.

robinph · 30-04-2007 11:14pm

Boston wrote:

I don't see the difference between this and a parent refusing to allow a 17 year old to travel(as I recall from when I travelled as a kid i need parental permission).

Under 16's I can understand, but does a parent still have legal authority over preventing a 17 year old doing what they want?

17 yr old girl not allowed an abortion

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