Electing the Taoiseach

John_C

I have 2 quick questions.

When the Taoiseach is being elected in the new Dáil;
1. does he need a majority to be elected
2. can he refuse votes from people he doesn't want them from.

e.g.
1. If neither Enda nor Bertie gets 84 (or whatever 50% + 1 is) does the one with the most votes win? If not, what happens.
2. Can they refuse votes from Sinn Féin? If Enda gets 84 votes including 10 from Sinn Féin can he refuse them or is he stuck being Taoiseach?

No they just need to find a coaltion partner ie the way Fianna Fail and the Pd's got together or the rainbow coalition.
Well they don't vote for who you want Taoiseach.Usually the party leader of the largest party of the coalition becomes Taoiseach.

Enda would not be forced to take Sinn Fein support.He could easily and more likely form a government with Labour or the greens.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Enda would not be forced to take Sinn Fein support.He could easily and more likely form a government with Labour or the greens.

He can't stop them voting for him when he is proposed as Taoiseach which he will be regardless of whether he has enough support or not.
They always put their leader up even if FF are certain-its a regular run of the mill way things are done.

I reckon it's very unlikely though that SF would vote for Kenny as he is extremely unlikely to offer them anything.
Ahern on the other hand more than likely would which means in my opinion that a vote for Sinn Féin is a pretty good bet as a vote for 4 or 5 more years of Ahern...

John_C

John_C wrote:

1. If neither Enda nor Bertie gets 84 (or whatever 50% + 1 is) does the one with the most votes win? If not, what happens.
2. Can they refuse votes from Sinn Féin? If Enda gets 84 votes including 10 from Sinn Féin can he refuse them or is he stuck being Taoiseach?

Maybe I shouldn't have included real names in my examples because I think it has confused the issue. My question is about the mechanics of the vote rather than who you think might vote for whom. That's also why I didn't post it in the general election thread because the question isn't specific to this election.

Example 1:
Imagine 3 people are nominated for Taoiseach. Prof. Plum gets 70 votes. Conl. Custard gets 50 and Miss Scarlett gets 34. Is Prof. Plum elected Taoiseach even though he has less than 50% of the votes i.e. does a person need 50% of the votes to be elected Taoiseach?

Example 2;
Similar to above but Miss Scarlett's party all vote for Conl. Custard giving him 84 votes. Custard really hates Scarlett and doesn't want her votes. Is that tough luck for him, he's elected anyway, or can he refuse them, making Prof. Plum Taoiseach?

gilroyb

I'm fairly sure it's done on a yes or no basis.

Do you want Prof Plum to be Taoiseach? Yes or No. If he gets more yes than no votes, he's in. If more no than yes, he's not.

This means if people abstain a minority government can be formed, which can then be brought down at a later point if the party that didn't vote decides to now actively vote against the Taoiseach.

If SF support someone for Taoiseach, he can't refuse their votes. He can on the other hand be elected Taoiseach and then immediately step down from the position.

Both main parties at the moment are saying they wont do anything to buy SF votes for Taoiseach, but if they're freely given then that's democracy, they can't ignore a Dail deputy's vote.

Bard

Doesn't a party or a coalition of parties have to first have a majority (with the most elected T.D.'s) and form a government first and then decide themselves on who the new Taoiseach is?

pigeonbutler

Bard wrote:

Doesn't a party or a coalition of parties have to first have a majority (with the most elected T.D.'s) and form a government first and then decide themselves on who the new Taoiseach is?

In practise yes, in theory no.

It would be pointless having your leader elected Taoiseach in a situation where you couldn't rely on the continuing support as a majority because the Government has to retain the support of the Dail or it will fall.

In theory the first Dail session after an election invites nominees and elects a Taoiseach, without any provision for whatever coalition engineering and deal brokering was required to bring about a majority.

E92

Enda has said on more than one occaison that Fine Gael will not even so much as look for support from the Shinners. The second largest party would consigned to the history books if Enda went in with the Shinners, if Bertie wants to let him at it, it would show in no uncertain terms how desperate FF are for power if he went in with them, irrespective of the cost to the electorate/country. Same goes for Michael Lowrey too re Enda support from him.

gilroyb

Enda has said on more than one occaison that Fine Gael will not even so much as look for support from the Shinners

So you're saying that even if FG and Labour have a majority in the Dail, if SF vote in favour of Enda for Taoiseach then Enda wont accept it? If a party gives their support it can't be refused, the only thing that can be done is for the (very) newly elected Taoiseach to step down.

The point I was making was that neither of the groupings can actually refuse to let SF say they support them for Taoiseach. What they can refuse to do is give them any sort of political deal in exchange for the support. Both Enda and Bertie have said that they will not make any deal with SF in exchange for their support. I'm inclined to believe both of them because if either FF or FG gave them political promises for support from them this time, it would be for a government that would be totally untested. They might not even make six months before they'd be back in front of an electorate who would be very willing to punish them for what they'd done. Coalition government/minority governments aren't normally as stable as the last few have been. FF know that if they make any political deals for power after the next election, they better be able to sell it from the start, not hope they can hold out for five years and pray the thing doesn't come down round their ears in the meantime.

Our man in Havana

So you're saying that even if FG and Labour have a majority in the Dail, if SF vote in favour of Enda for Taoiseach then Enda wont accept it? If a party gives their support it can't be refused, the only thing that can be done is for the (very) newly elected Taoiseach to step down.

This would trigger a new general election?

gilroyb

No, elections are triggered when the President dissolves the Dail on the advice of the Taoiseach.

According to Article 13 of the constitution the President appoints the Taoiseach on the nomination of the Dail, and dissolves the Dail on the basis of the Taoiseach's advice, but they can refuse to dissolve the Dail on their own discretion. If theoretically the Taoiseach is simply saying they're retiring, then I guess it's up to the TDs to vote again and appoint a new Taoiseach.

In this case if Enda were to resign due to having SF support, and Bertie did the same or was expected to do the same, then the Dail would presumably be dissolved, as any other person who was put up as a possible Taoiseach would be voted down by FF and FG. The fact that not even a government with a higher number of supporters than detractors would not be possible would require new elections. It's all very messy, but luckily quite unlikely to work out this way, so no need to worry.

John R

gilroyb wrote:

So you're saying that even if FG and Labour have a majority in the Dail, if SF vote in favour of Enda for Taoiseach then Enda wont accept it? If a party gives their support it can't be refused, the only thing that can be done is for the (very) newly elected Taoiseach to step down.

If the party or coalition parties (say in this case FG and LAB) have a majority on their own then what way a third party voted would be irrelevant. They would have their majority to form their government and would give out all the departments to their own members. In any and every vote in the house the members of other parties could vote whatever way they liked, as long as the government coalition has a majority it is only them that are actually ensuring their votes and not any external TDs or parties who might happen to also vote the same way.

If they get a majority on their own there is no way any action by SF (short of blowing up the Dail) would stop FG and LAB from forming the next government.

gilroyb wrote:

The point I was making was that neither of the groupings can actually refuse to let SF say they support them for Taoiseach.

They could not refuse a particular TDs vote but they could refuse to form a government with them and refuse to accept any posts including Taoiseach so it makes the whole point moot. Nobody is going to form a government with SF (or any other party) unless they agree to do so.

gilroyb wrote:

What they can refuse to do is give them any sort of political deal in exchange for the support. Both Enda and Bertie have said that they will not make any deal with SF in exchange for their support. I'm inclined to believe both of them because if either FF or FG gave them political promises for support from them this time, it would be for a government that would be totally untested. They might not even make six months before they'd be back in front of an electorate who would be very willing to punish them for what they'd done.

Well we can all speculate on the what-ifs of SF being able to get in to government but IMO the only person who can give more than speculation is Bertie and there is nothing I would rule out for that man to do in order to hold on to power.

There really is no chance that a FG/LAB led government would include SF, they would bring in the Greens and other small parties/independents first and there is no way that every one of those would agree to get in with SF even if FG did (which they won't).

gilroyb wrote:

Coalition government/minority governments aren't normally as stable as the last few have been. FF know that if they make any political deals for power after the next election, they better be able to sell it from the start, not hope they can hold out for five years and pray the thing doesn't come down round their ears in the meantime.

It is a whole hell of a lot easier to keep a stable coalition in a booming ecomomy when the decisions are whose departments get the most funding rather than whose get the biggest cutbacks like in many previous coalitions.

A minority government is inherently unstable and basically worse than useless, they would probably end up at the mercy of some of the card carrying lunatics like Healy-Ray or that disgrace of a woman from Mayo. A nightmare scenario.

It also helps when the basic "principles" of the partners are similar, in the current case FF and PD were a great match. The biggest disagreements I can imagine would have been over how much greed and corruption they wanted to partake of.

Zaphod

John R wrote:

A minority government is inherently unstable and basically worse than useless, they would probably end up at the mercy of some of the card carrying lunatics like Healy-Ray or that disgrace of a woman from Mayo. A nightmare scenario.

There have been a number of minority governments down through the years which have not been especially unstable and have arguably been among the best governments e.g. 1961 election of Lemass' minority government which lasted until 1965 and saw unprecedented economic development.

Similarly, between 1987 and 1992 the two minority governments were widely credited with getting the economy back on track.

Lynch's majority government in 1977 wrecked the economy while the majority FF/Lab coalition in 1992 lasted just two years.

EDIT: The 1997 FF/PD minority government was the second longest in the history of the State and the first since 1948 to serve a full term, despite being supported by "card carrying lunatics like Healy-Rae".

Gobán Saor

John_C wrote:

I have 2 quick questions.

When the Taoiseach is being elected in the new Dáil;
1. does he need a majority to be elected
2. can he refuse votes from people he doesn't want them from.

e.g.
1. If neither Enda nor Bertie gets 84 (or whatever 50% + 1 is) does the one with the most votes win? If not, what happens.
2. Can they refuse votes from Sinn Féin? If Enda gets 84 votes including 10 from Sinn Féin can he refuse them or is he stuck being Taoiseach?

1. Yes, he neds a majority of those TD who vote on his nomination. Abstentions are discounted.
2. No. All TDs can vote whatever way thay want.

When a new Dail first meets, the first item is the election of a new Ceann Comhairle. Any TD can be proposed for election. Each nomination is voted on. Once any nominee gets more "YES" than "NO" votes, he is then Ceann Comhairle and takes the chair. The procedure is then repeated for the post of Taoiseach.

Gobán Saor

Bond-007 wrote:

This would trigger a new general election?

Not necessarily. The (new) Taoiseach has a choice. He can request the President to dissolve the Dail - which she MUST do as the Taoiseach does enjoy a majority (even if he doesn't want it!) This would trigger a general election.

OR - the Taoiseach can resign and the Dail will then proceed to elect another new Taoiseach.

flogen

Gob&#225 wrote: »

When a new Dail first meets, the first item is the election of a new Ceann Comhairle. Any TD can be proposed for election. Each nomination is voted on. Once any nominee gets more "YES" than "NO" votes, he is then Ceann Comhairle and takes the chair. The procedure is then repeated for the post of Taoiseach.

I thought the outgoing Ceann Comhairle is automatically given the role again, unless he has retired or refuses it (hence why Rory Hanlon automatically gains a seat - because he's Ceann Comhairle no matter what happens in the other 165 seats and even FG with a majority couldn't oust him etc.)

I think the outgoing Taoiseach is also the automatic first nomination once the Dáil resumes - assuming they're there!

John_C

Gob&#225 wrote: »

1. Yes, he neds a majority of those TD who vote on his nomination. Abstentions are discounted.
2. No. All TDs can vote whatever way thay want.

When a new Dail first meets, the first item is the election of a new Ceann Comhairle. Any TD can be proposed for election. Each nomination is voted on. Once any nominee gets more "YES" than "NO" votes, he is then Ceann Comhairle and takes the chair. The procedure is then repeated for the post of Taoiseach.

Thanks.

Gobán Saor

flogen wrote:

I thought the outgoing Ceann Comhairle is automatically given the role again, unless he has retired or refuses it (hence why Rory Hanlon automatically gains a seat - because he's Ceann Comhairle no matter what happens in the other 165 seats and even FG with a majority couldn't oust him etc.)

Not quite. The outgoing Ceann Comhairle is automaticaly returned to the Dail, but not necesarily as Ceann Comhairle. Otherwise it would be a job for life!

flogen wrote:

I think the outgoing Taoiseach is also the automatic first nomination once the Dáil resumes - assuming they're there!

Not necessarily. Convention is that the parties nominate candidates in order of Dail strength. I don't think that's a rule of law though - just seems to be the protocol.