The Sinn Féin thread

marco murphy

These same people murdered Gerry McCabe amongst other gardai,

What other Gardai?

Colonel Sanders

Poblachtach wrote:

What other Gardai?

by 'they' I meant the IRA, not those involved in the Adare incident. the first line of my post referred to teh IRA and not just the Adare gang

Liam Byrne

GabharBrean wrote:

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I have not commented on anything you have written above in any of my previous posts.

Talk about obfusctication and deflection. Really, quote me where I've made a statement about any topic above. If you can fine, otherwise, don't put words into my mouth.

It was not my intention to obfuscate or deflect. You validly listed a whole heap of serious issues - poverty, house prices, inflation, etc - on which the electorate should know where a potential candidate stands.

All I meant was that it makes no difference where they stand on those if there is a fundamental view upon which I disagree.

And again, this is not purely anti-SF; I have issues with how FF deal/dealt with certain members of theirs who are/were obviously corrupt, so I can't justify voting for them either. The only difference is that the fact that someone took a brown-envelope payment of €50K is slightly less serious an issue to me than whether they think, for example, killing is OK; but it's still a perfectly valid reason for me not to vote for them.

On that basis, whether it's Haughey or Liam Lawlor or a SF/IRA guy in prison makes no difference; while the severity of the crimes is on a different scale and should of course be reflected in the equation and the prison sentence, the fact is that anyone in FF who might think that their crimes were OK also deserves my disgust and annoyance and my refusal to consider them as worthy of being in office. Likewise, anyone in SF has only themselves to blame if I decide not to vote for them because of their opinion that the actions of the IRA were perfectly OK.

Unfortunately for alot of nationalists, we didn't have the option of voting on the troubles.

And likewise, I don't remember us having the option of voting whether the IRA could claim that they were representing us or not.

None of my views are right-wing; all I'm saying is that if you approve of violence against innocent people or against the forces of law and order in this country, then you are not, IMHO, worthy of consideration for a vote.

That's not right-wing, it's a perfectly valid point of view. I've also previously said that my pacifist outlook hits a grey area for people who are directly antagonised, as the aggressor is at fault - this could apply to a burglar in your house or you could apply it to the RUC or British Army or whoever in the North, if your experience of those justifies that; again, not my view but then I didn't live through it. So I've already - admittedly uncomfortably - given at least some of the violence a slight basis for justification; but I'm being as consistent as I can here, which is more than can be said for some folk who seem to want to have it both ways.

Colonel Sanders

GabharBrean wrote:

right wing extremism

I'm in no way right wing and if being appalled by the actions of the IRA is extremism then I guess I must be an extremist

Liam Byrne

Poblachtach wrote:

What other Gardai?

A quick check in Google resulted in the name Seamus Quaid (RIP) appearing, so that's at least one other based on a cursory 2-second search.

Colonel Sanders

Liam Byrne wrote:

A quick check in Google resulted in the name Seamus Quaid (RIP) appearing, so that's at least one other based on a cursory 2-second search.

I'm from very close to where Seamus Quaid was murdered in Wexford. shot down unarmed in cold blood by IRA man Peter Rogers.

oscarBravo

GabharBrean wrote:

When they have had innocent school friends shot to death by their cronies in the British army , they can pontificate to Republicans. To add insult to injury, their British cronies then label these innocents as terrorists to deflect from the truth and walk away scott free.

When their relatives are interned without due process, they can pontificate to Republicans.

When guns are put to their heads during the marching season and told no taigues are allowed in the town, they can pontificate to Republicans.

As a child I lay awake many a night wondering if my dad was going to come home in the morning, or whether he'd be the next garda murdered by Republican scumbags.

Apologies if that's not sufficiently steeped in the troubles for your liking, but I'm damned if I'm ever going to accept any wishy-washy apologism for the cold-blooded murder of Det Gda McCabe. His murder hit very, very close to home, and until SF distance themselves utterly from the murdering scumbags who did it, they'll never have the faintest shred of legitimacy in my eyes.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

As a child I lay awake many a night wondering if my dad was going to come home in the morning, or whether he'd be the next garda murdered by Republican scumbags.

Before I moved to the north I had very set views on the LVF, UVF, IRA, INLA etc

They all pretty much sat with what was listed above by Oscar Bravo ArthurF etc

Down south it was very cut and dry the IRA where scum, they killed people. We all said thing like "Even the catholics up north dont want them". However I never met the people who where most affected by the troubles who lived in the working class protestant and Catholic areas of Northern Ireland.

I truly believe you should always try and see things from the other sides perspective. Once I did that here I found out that nothing is as easy as I once thought it was. If I lived in the streets of West Belfast during the height of the troubles I can see myself joining the ranks of the IRA should anyone close to me be injured needlessly or killed by security or loyalist paramilitary forces.

Oscar Bravo you where right to worry about your dad coming home however for every night you worried for your dad several thousand Catholic familys worried for there civilian fathers for no reason other than the religon of his birth. This was a situation no group of people would endure without eventually fighting back.

I would not vote SF as I dont believe in their policys, however the DUP,UUP supporters have suffered percentage wise far worse than anyone south of the border at the hands of the IRA. They have decided to move forward with SF accepting the fact they are no longer connected with the military option of armed struggle.(why should they, they have prospered since).

SF are no longer a lunatic fringe in Irish Politics they are far smarter than any Irish Politician has ever given them credit for instead dismissing them with remarks such as "We never shot people".

I dont see SF as a Party I would like to see in goverment at present, however there election numbers speak for them selves up here. They dont distance themselves from the IRA as thats the fire they were born out of.

Funny thing is the only time I have this conversation its with southerners or foreigners.

Liam Byrne

Fair points, Zambia.

The only thing that I would say is that the activities may have been started for a noble reason but they then went way beyond what was required for protection and became criminal, with apparently no-one brave enough to shout stop.

Protecting your family by whacking an intruder with a crowbar is understandable and justified; whacking an innocent bystander doing their shopping would be a different story.

No-one even acknowledged that they were criminal actions, and judging by some of the posts here, some still don't.

Also, the situation in the North where almost all remaining parties have recently been involved or associated with terrorism leaves it with no option but to let those into power; they had the chance at being governed by moderates, and they rejected it; that is their right - to vote for and elect whomever they see fit.

Just as it is ours.

Ulster9

oscarBravo wrote:

As a child I lay awake many a night wondering if my dad was going to come home in the morning, or whether he'd be the next garda murdered by Republican scumbags.

Apologies if that's not sufficiently steeped in the troubles for your liking, but I'm damned if I'm ever going to accept any wishy-washy apologism for the cold-blooded murder of Det Gda McCabe. His murder hit very, very close to home, and until SF distance themselves utterly from the murdering scumbags who did it, they'll never have the faintest shred of legitimacy in my eyes.

How many threads have we got going now with this.Many of the comments here towards republicans are over the top, almost an insitement to hatred.They are completlely out of sink with current developments.
Lets be real here OscarBravo, the IRA werent exactly targeting gardai, the Gerry McCabe case was a very rare accurance.
Was the old IRA a terrorist group or were they ok guys?Did the people of Dublin not spit on the 1916 rebels?I always am uneasy about labeling people terrorists as its used as an excuse to demonise people and remove reason for negotiation.The facts are for the past 20 years now Sinn Fein has been working tirlessly to settle the problems of Northern Ireland so that conflict and all the dirty carry on that spins of from it is a thing of the past.Sinn Fein has faced down the hardliners in its own camp and isolated them so that the people they represent do not have to face another generation of conflict.Sinn Fein have made serious compromises.
So is there any chance some of the posters on here can start to understand other peoples point of views and start talking about constructive issues.Sure the past makes accepting Sinn Fein difficult for some but republicans want the same things everyone else want but history has made that difficult.I have had more respectful discussions with unionists as a republican on other sites than with some of people on here.

GabharBrean

Tristrame wrote:

I don't think you have to be right wing to have been against what the IRA did.
It's not good to simply dismiss opposing views as right wing either.
Engagement is the healthier way.

No more discussion of moderation will be discussed here.
Read the charter.
All discussion like that will be deleted.

Why? The person who's name this is posted under said he didn't post it. He wanted to know who did? It's a valid question. Who is posting these SF threads? One was done in my name and without my consent. What's going on? Who's doing this? What is their agenda?

LordSutch

Am I allowed to contribute?

oscarBravo

GabharBrean wrote:

Why? The person who's name this is posted under said he didn't post it. He wanted to know who did? It's a valid question. Who is posting these SF threads? One was done in my name and without my consent. What's going on? Who's doing this? What is their agenda?

GabharBrean, fair warning: if you post one more time discussing moderation in contravention of the charter, you will be banned for a month. I can't make it any plainer than that. If you have a problem with a post, report it or PM a moderator.

ArthurF wrote:

Am I allowed to contribute?

Absolutely, as long as you're not discussing moderation or otherwise contravening the charter.

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

Oscar Bravo you where right to worry about your dad coming home however for every night you worried for your dad several thousand Catholic familys worried for there civilian fathers for no reason other than the religon of his birth.

Let me be absolutely clear here.

If someone asked me to vote for a politician who refused to condemn the sectarian murder of an innocent Catholic in the north, I'd treat him with the contempt he deserved.

If someone asks me to vote for a politician who refuses to condemn the cold-blooded murder of a member of our police force, he'll get treated with the same degree of contempt.

I'm equal-opportunity where apologists for murdering scumbags are concerned.

oscarBravo

Ulster9 wrote:

Lets be real here OscarBravo, the IRA werent exactly targeting gardai, the Gerry McCabe case was a very rare accurance.

I'm sure that's a great comfort to Ann McCabe, although I'm not sure how exactly you hit someone sitting in a car with eleven bullets from an automatic weapon unless you're targetting him.

Which is beside the point. If it's such an anomaly, why can't SF representatives condemn it for the disgusting crime it is, and leave the murderers to rot in jail like any right-thinking person would do?

GabharBrean

oscarBravo wrote:

GabharBrean, fair warning: if you post one more time discussing moderation in contravention of the charter, you will be banned for a month. I can't make it any plainer than that. If you have a problem with a post, report it or PM a moderator.

I did contact the moderator before. No response. I'll make it easy. I've banned myself from this preppy far right extremist nonsense.

Definition of a Moderator: "The nonpartisan presiding officer of a meeting." The moderators are obviously not impartial. Their posting of threads under others name is unethical to boot. Slán.

jahalpin

Ulster9 wrote:

All i can say to posters slagging off republicans thanks for understanding the plight of your Irish bretheren in the North who were trapped in a country without their consent, denied civil liberties,denied representation, denied parity of esteem.Perhaps you forget why the original struggle for Irish independence was necessary?
Maybe you dont know that when Nationalists sought basic reform of the Northern state.The RUC battered them of the street,the British army opened fire on them in the Streets of Derry driving people to join the ranks of the IRA for a decade.The British army raided peoples homes and interned without trial.Margaret Thatcher introduced the Criminalisation strategy to portray to the world that Ulster was just a huge criminal problem.
The people of Fermanagh/South Tyrone elected Bobby Sands to Westminister to tell Thatcher Irish republicans and Nationalist would not be criminalised.Republicans were marginalised(Somebody had to be blamed, Section 31 was upheld).
Some people on here need to catch themselves on.There are plenty of horror stories 3700 of them.

In my opinion the British government were totally justified in their actions in Northern Ireland. Whether you like it or not, Northern Ireland is soverign British territory, the result of a legal agreement which brought peace to the 26 counties mainly Catholic counties of the Republic of Ireland. The catholic minority in Northern Ireland have always been unhappy with this situation but nobody was preventing them from moving to the Republic.

By saying that the nationalists were denied representation I assume that you are referrferring to the fact they were unable to take their seats in the parliamnent of the United Kingdom without taking an oath of allegience to the head of the state ie the Queen. The elected represenatives in all democracies must swear allegience to the head of state in whose name the government is formed.

I find it amazing that certain people believe that the IRA's campaign of murder and destruction was ok but that any atempts to make the perpetrators pay for their cowardly crimes is wrong and that people on the other side should just sit back and allow people to murder their friends and family and drive them from their homes.

Margaret Thatcher did what any head of government would do when faced with the breakdown of basic law and order in part of their country, she did everything she possibly could to restore law and order by using the army and RUC and showing people that civil disobedience will not be tolerated.

I find it highly unlikely that the British Army fired at protestors unproked in Londonderry.

The nationalists in Northern Ireland have always treated UK soldiers very badly, the nationalists attack them and abuse them, the most recent high profile case of this being when a nationalist mob attacked ambulances ferrying injured soliers from a helicopter crash in Armagh.

Zambia

jahalpin wrote:

In my opinion the British government were totally justified in their actions in Northern Ireland. Whether you like it or not, Northern Ireland is soverign British territory, the result of a legal agreement which brought peace to the 26 counties mainly Catholic counties of the Republic of Ireland. The catholic minority in Northern Ireland have always been unhappy with this situation but nobody was preventing them from moving to the Republic.

By saying that the nationalists were denied representation I assume that you are referrferring to the fact they were unable to take their seats in the parliamnent of the United Kingdom without taking an oath of allegience to the head of the state ie the Queen. The elected represenatives in all democracies must swear allegience to the head of state in whose name the government is formed.

I find it amazing that certain people believe that the IRA's campaign of murder and destruction was ok but that any atempts to make the perpetrators pay for their cowardly crimes is wrong and that people on the other side should just sit back and allow people to murder their friends and family and drive them from their homes.

Margaret Thatcher did what any head of government would do when faced with the breakdown of basic law and order in part of their country, she did everything she possibly could to restore law and order by using the army and RUC and showing people that civil disobedience will not be tolerated.

I find it highly unlikely that the British Army fired at protestors unproked in Londonderry.

The nationalists in Northern Ireland have always treated UK soldiers very badly, the nationalists attack them and abuse them, the most recent high profile case of this being when a nationalist mob attacked ambulances ferrying injured soliers from a helicopter crash in Armagh.

Oh dear lord dont bother posting if your not going to even research basic facts.

jahalpin

Zambia232 wrote:

Oh dear lord dont bother posting if your not going to even research basic facts.

Such as?

Zambia

jahalpin wrote:

Such as?

Im not going to bother. Your post is that bad

Villain

Ah I wondered where my post had gone from the Ferris thread, this has been discussed here time and time again do a search for McCabe and you will find threads nearly 30 pages long.

The fact is the men were convicted of manslauther not murder saying otherwise is just been ignorant and libelous.

Under the good friday agreement the men convicted of Garda McCabe's manslaughter are entitled to early release, in the same way the Norman Coopey who killed James Morgan was entitled to early release although I'm not sure if many people know who he is even. James Morgan was a 16-year-old Catholic boy who was murdered 6 weeks after Gerry McCabe, his body was found near Clough, County Down, in 1997.

The schoolboy was abducted as he tried to hitch a lift near his home at Annesborough, County Down.

His assailants tortured him before beating him to death with a hammer, dousing his body with petrol and setting it alight.

The body was dumped in a pit filled with animal carcases.

The killing was never claimed by any organisation but after Coopey was jailed for life, he moved onto the Loyalist Volunteer Force wings in the Maze prison.

At that time, the group was on ceasefire and the then Northern Ireland Secretary, Mo Mowlam, ruled that its members would qualify for early release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

Norman Coopey was released in July 2000 after serving less than 2 years of his life sentence for the Murder of James Morgan.

The Murder of Gerry McCabe was wrong, criminal and cannot be excused however ther are many many cases of innocent people being killed north and south during the troubles and many of the people found guilty of those crimes have been released early. You can express opinions all you want as they will change from poster to poster however the facts can never change.

jahalpin

Zambia232 wrote:

Im not going to bother. Your post is that bad

You obviously subscribe to the gospel according to St. Gerry ie that everything that republicans do is right and morally justifiable while everything that the big, bad British do is evil and wrong!!!

Liam Byrne

irish1 wrote:

The fact is the men were convicted of manslauther not murder saying otherwise is just been ignorant and libelous.

No-one has said that they were convicted of anything other than manslaughter; the opinions given were that it is almost impossible to imagine how this was considered manslaughter, given the events. The conviction was better than nothing, if they didn't have enough willing witnesses and proof for the intended charge, but it was not the preferred charge.

Under the good friday agreement the men convicted of Garda McCabe's manslaughter are entitled to early release

This depends completely on whether it was an IRA action or not; Gerry Adams did a George Bush on this, changing his mind on numerous occasions according to how it suited him. When it was a hot issue as to whether it broke a ceasefire or whatever, it was nothing to do with the IRA, but when the individuals involved wanted an early release, it was If he doesn't know, how are we to know ?

In addition, while those who did the deed are serving time, no-one has ever stood up and pointed out who "sanctioned" :rolleyes: the murder.

The Murder of Gerry McCabe was wrong, criminal and cannot be excused

Fair play to you (and absolutely no sarcasm intended) for admitting this. True, it shouldn't be hard for anyone to admit it, but if more of the "republican movement" were prepared to say this out loud, rather than fudging and copping out as Treasa Ferris did on The Late Late, then we'd start making progress. If the president of the organisation did likewise, then we could try to accept that there are a few psychotic loose cannons in there, as there could well be in any organisation. If he won't do this, the assumption is - when combined with the photo calls - that he somehow condones it.

As for other atrocities done by other people and organisations - the simple fact is this: those individuals are just as culpable, reprehensible and answerable for their actions, but the main point is that they (1) did not claim to be acting for Irish people and (2) people who seem to agree with what they did are not running for election here in this country. We could discuss - and equally condemn - those on a separate thread or forum, but the politics forum is for discussing matters related to politicians and potential politicians in the upcoming election.

The early release would be very hard to swallow, but that isn't the hub of this particular discussion; the discussion is whether people who refuse to condemn this and let the authorities know what they know about it are suitable for election.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

The Murder of Gerry McCabe was wrong, criminal and cannot be excused however ther are many many cases of innocent people being killed north and south during the troubles and many of the people found guilty of those crimes have been released early. You can express opinions all you want as they will change from poster to poster however the facts can never change.

like the definition of apologist doesn't either.

Zambia

jahalpin wrote:

You obviously subscribe to the gospel according to St. Gerry ie that everything that republicans do is right and morally justifiable while everything that the big, bad British do is evil and wrong!!!

I in fact have no problem with the Union as it currently stands. Nor with Catholics position in Northern Irish society.

I live in a Unionist community and I an extremly happy doing so. Your post is simply so niave I cant explain to you where your off base.

I will take one case in piont

The catholic minority in Northern Ireland have always been unhappy with this situation but nobody was preventing them from moving to the Republic.

Villain

Tristrame wrote:

like the definition of apologist doesn't either.

Do you want to elaborate on that tristrame? Are you accusing me of being an apologist for the IRA?

Colonel Sanders

GabharBrean wrote:

I've banned myself from this preppy far right extremist nonsense.

Still don't understand how condemning violence is right wing extremism. Please explain.

FTA69

Colonel Sanders wrote:

Another man hitting nail on head. How come off duty and unarmed members of the British armed forces were 'legitimate targets' for the IRA but a 'shoot to kill' policy by security forces is classed as murder?

Because the IRA were very open about the fact they were fighting a war. The Brits maintained they were dealing with a "criminal conspiracy" rather than a political conflict and always portrayed the situation as one of cops and robbers. The question then arises why were they dealing with "criminals" by extrajudically killing them on the spot and abducting them from border regions. IRA members were under no illusion about the war, and were fully aware that the Brits could and would shoot back. It was the hypocrisy of the Brits which was the issue.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote:

As a child I lay awake many a night wondering if my dad was going to come home in the morning, or whether he'd be the next garda murdered by Republican scumbags.

Fair enough, I remember being woken up at all hours while armed Gardaí ransacked my home and threatened my family. I had to listen to Special Branch detectives wolf-whistling while I walked past them with my girlfriend. I was threatend that my grandmothers house would be raided while she was in hospital recovering from surgery. I saw my friends come home from police stations with cracked ribs and week-long headaches after recieving the phone book treatment.

I'm not saying this in order to justify what happened in Adare, rather to explain that Republicans and their families often suffered immensely at the hands of the police in this state. Gerry McCabe was one person out of nearly 4,000 who died during the course of the conflict, his death is no more or no less important than that of any other and elevating him to some sort of hierarchial position of victimhood serves no-one.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Do you want to elaborate on that tristrame? Are you accusing me of being an apologist for the IRA?

Your post comes across that way alright when you say above "and cannot be excused however"

There should be no if's and buts.