Rejecting some myths about Immigrants

dochasach · 01-05-2007 1:07pm #1

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes. Because of this, and the fact that boards.ie still doesn't have a dedicated forum to discuss immigration, I think this is a good time and place to address some myths about immigrants which are almost univerally accepted by the voting public:

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

Myth #1: "You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house, car, the lot. But if you are Irish, born, bred and reared and are down on your luck you get nothing."

This was quoted from a post on boards.ie and I can assure you that immigrants, including those who claim political asylum, do not receive a free car or free house here and in fact may not avail of many benefits which are available to Irish citizens. For example, child benefit is not payable to asylum-seekers who arrived in Ireland after the 1st May 2004.

Myth #2: "You can get automatic citizenship by having a child here."

As far as I know, this has never been true. It certainly isn't true now and the more we spread the word around the world, the less likely people will come here thinking this is the case. The problem is, as recently as early 2007, RTE (Ireland's tax subsidized national T.V. station) was still reporting this myth as fact. The citizenship referendum (voted by a majority, understood by a minority), did nothing but remove the automatic citizenship right of children born in Ireland. The parents never had that right.

Myth #3: "Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

While it's true that immigrants helped build many of the houses, it was under direction of Irish property developers and investment interests. For the most part, immigrants have been left off the bottom of the property ladder. How many recent Polish or Nigerian immigrants do you know who are able to drop 350,000 euro on an average Dublin house? Some might wonder if they're contributing to rental demand, that may be true but property prices vs rent yields are currently at an all time low which suggests either an undersupply of tenants or an oversupply of homes. The truth of this matter is that we were in a speculative bubble and according to the last census approximately 250,000 Irish houses sit empty, their owners relying on capital appreciation.

Myth #4: "Immigrants can get automatic citizenship by marrying an Irish person."

Tánaiste McDowell recently introduced a fast-track law to address this myth, but you are only eligible for citizenship after marrying an Irish person and living here at least 5 years.

Myth #5: "Immigrants get automatic citizenship by living in Ireland for 5 years."
You are eligable to apply for citizenship _after_ reckonable residence of at least 5 years, then you must wait several years for the application to be processed. The years spent awaiting decisions on immigration issues do not count as reckonable residence.

Myth #6: "Immigrants are eligible for a green card after living in Ireland for 5 years." The laws were written such that many who have lived here much longer than 5 years are only eligible for short term visas.

Myth #7: "Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate." Traffic fatalities are actually lower than they were years before the immigrants came. Many countries where these immigrants come from have lower traffic fatality rates than here. The problem we're a 1st world country with a 4th world road infrastructure, and we drive too fast.

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now. Of the 4 immigrants in Holles when our child was born, two of them were Philipinos, a nurse and an obstetrician. The problem is really mismanagement of the resources we have.

These are only 8 myths off the top of my head. Don't be surprised if you had no idea this was the way things worked here. From my experience, many who work in the immigration department have no idea what the real law is or the real obstacles faced by immigrants.

GarraiGamhain · 01-05-2007 1:11pm

"You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house,

So what about all those asylum seekers that live out by me in Galway? Are they paying for their accomadation then?

Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate.

Its true that our traffic fatalities have declined but that decline would be more pronounced if immigrant deaths were not included.

Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

They have most definitely had an effect on rental and sales markets in Ireland. What type if an effect is open to debate.

robinph · 01-05-2007 1:33pm

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Its true that our traffic fatalities have declined but that decline would be more pronounced if immigrant deaths were not included.

Huh!?!

Do you mean it would be even more reduced if they just stopped counting the numbers?

Captain Trips · 01-05-2007 1:33pm

dochasach wrote:

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen, and apparently Minister McDowell know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes.

Many people have real concerns about immigration policies in Ireland. There has been no attempt to increase education, health and transport resources in line with increased amounts of immmigrants. Nor has there been adequate increases in policing for the large amount of asylum seekers.

These are real concerns, and are not "anti-immigrant nationalism". The citizens of this country have paid for this state - through 18% mortgage rates and 70% income tax. Now they are left with dilapidated schools, failing health policies and over €100 Million going to Poland every year to pay child support and social services while our own child support systems are collapsing.

But they can have Starbucks.

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

Zombrex · 01-05-2007 1:41pm

Captain Trips wrote:

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

I would imagine he means the birth rate in Ireland, rather than the number of Irish citizens having children.

Zambia · 01-05-2007 1:54pm

This is a good thread you can Post a myth and then it can be disproved.

Myth # Foriegn cars(Eastern Europe) driving Southern Irish roads are insured to a maxium of 160,000 to cover third party. Irish minium insurance requirements state a minium of 3,000,000 euro in the same case.

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

Personnally I dont think these are myths

dochasach · 01-05-2007 2:05pm

Captain Trips wrote:

Many people have real concerns about immigration policies in Ireland. There has been no attempt to increase education, health and transport resources in line with increased amounts of immmigrants. Nor has there been adequate increases in policing for the large amount of asylum seekers.

These are real concerns, and are not "anti-immigrant nationalism".

Yes there are real concerns and I'm not advocating keeping our heads buried in the sand. By posting this thread I'm trying to separate the anti-immigrant nationalism (which does exist, like it or not) from real concerns which can be addressed fairly. I have no problem with a strict but fair immigration policy, I do have problem with a government, press and populace which directs a disproportional amount of dissent towards newcomers. Look at asylum seekers, it was a huge issue in the last election but it only amounted to a few thousand people during the boom years and has now fallen to what it was in the mid-90s before Ireland's boom.

The citizens of this country have paid for this state - through 18% mortgage rates and 70% income tax. Now they are left with dilapidated schools, failing health policies

Most immigrants pay taxes also, some foreign multinational companys avoid direct tax, but it would be foolish to ignore their contribution towards the boom. But most importantly the take from stamp duty (a huge windfall which would not be possible without the rapid rise in house prices... which some claim is caused by immigrants) should be enough to pave Irish streets with gold and yet we're made to feel as though we're lucky to have them paved at all.

and over €100 Million going to Poland every year to pay child support and social services while our own child support systems are collapsing.

Thanks for reminding me of another myth. Actually there was some truth in it. As is typical in Irish immigration law, there was a huge loophole and after it was reported even more people took advantage of it, but it was closed in March of 2006.

Many immigrants have the opposite problem, we pay full taxes and yet we are ineligible for child benefits. We pay pension, yet we're unlikely to be allowed to live here long enough to collect it. Why isn't this big news? Because it only affects a minority. A minority which doesn't have the right to vote.

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

I meant the number of births on the island of Ireland. I dug up the statistics several years ago when the citizenship referendum was up for a vote. I won't bother digging them up again, facts are notoriously ineffective in shaping opinion.

dochasach · 01-05-2007 2:26pm

Zambia232 wrote:

This is a good thread you can Post a myth and then it can be disproved.

Myth # Foriegn cars(Eastern Europe) driving Southern Irish roads are insured to a maxium of 160,000 to cover third party. Irish minium insurance requirements state a minium of 3,000,000 euro in the same case.

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

Personnally I dont think these are myths

I'm glad you like the thread. I agree that should have posted sources for refuting each myth but I posted it in a hurry before lunch because I'd heard one too many claims that I knew (from personal experience) to be false and because I've yet to meet an Irish person who understands these issues as well as newcomers do.

I don't know if your "Foreign car" myth was meant to prove that Ireland wouldn't have a terrible road fatality rate without foreigners but to me all it proves is that Ireland needs to improve enforcement of insurance laws. Ireland needs to improve traffic enforcement in general and road test procedures... and roads but that's another bucket of threads which would persist even if Ireland were an "ethnically pure" state.

The second one sounds like a reference to either a true but unusual event (unusual enough that it probably made the papers therefore you heard about it), or urban folklore. Claims that this is repesentative is bad both for the immigrant (predjudicing Irish against them) and bad for Ireland because if desparate immigrants believe this will work, someone will try it.

My advice for anyone immigrating anywhere is that you will need your passport and every reference and original record you can get from your homeland. If the country your are a guest in needs originals which don't exist in your own country you're out of luck. I was stopped from getting a transferrable Irish visa by the fact that my home university published only detailed acedemic transcripts instead of parchment diplomas. Their decorative parchment diplomas which said "Bachelor of Science" and didn't detail the degree. This was unacceptable to the people at the Irish visa office even though by rights I was qualified for this visa. Yes I know this encourages forgery and probably lets in as many criminals as it rejects qualified applicants, that's why my university stopped using parchment diplomas as legal documents.

Zambia · 01-05-2007 2:40pm

dochasach wrote:

I don't know if your "Foreign car" myth was meant to prove that Ireland wouldn't have a terrible road fatality rate without foreigners but to me all it proves is that Ireland needs to improve enforcement of insurance laws. Ireland needs to improve traffic enforcement in general and road test procedures... and roads but that's another bucket of threads which would persist even if Ireland were an "ethnically pure" state.

Agreed irish people need no foriegn help killing themselves on irish roads but let me be more spefific.

Lets say what is the limit of a Polish/Lithunian cars maxium 3rd Party Insurance.

IMO if a car is on irish roads despite being from a foriegn nation it should have travel insurance/insurance that matchs the max limit on 3rd party of the nation its used in.

This is to ensure parity of the cost of damages in the nation the accident happened.

I in no way want to blame non-nationals for any increase in road accidents however we all make mistakes.

dochasach · 01-05-2007 2:54pm

Zambia232 wrote:

Agreed irish people need no foriegn help killing themselves on irish roads but let me be more spefific.

Lets say what is the limit of a Polish/Lithunian cars maxium 3rd Party Insurance.

IMO if a car is on irish roads despite being from a foriegn nation it should have travel insurance/insurance that matchs the max limit on 3rd party of the nation its used in.

This is to ensure parity of the cost of damages in the nation the accident happened.

I in no way want to blame non-nationals for any increase in road accidents however we all make mistakes.

Well said. I happen to agree with you here. I'd also suggest that the fact that Ireland accepts left hand drive cars and drivers from countries with a much higher per km traffic fatality rate than Ireland means that the transport minister should negotiate license parity with countries with a left hand drive and much lower per km traffic fatality rate (e.g. Canada). This would be one way to quickly clear some off the driver testing queue thoughit might require negotiation between Canada and the E.U. Alternatively E.U. countries with left-hand drive could be required to get their car modified and take the Irish driving test and then the DL testing queues will extend even longer, which means more job security for the testers.

Zambia · 01-05-2007 3:24pm

dochasach wrote:

Well said. I happen to agree with you here. I'd also suggest that the fact that Ireland accepts left hand drive cars and drivers from countries with a much higher per km traffic fatality rate than Ireland means that the transport minister should negotiate license parity with countries with a left hand drive and much lower per km traffic fatality rate (e.g. Canada). This would be one way to quickly clear some off the driver testing queue thoughit might require negotiation between Canada and the E.U. Alternatively E.U. countries with left-hand drive could be required to get their car modified and take the Irish driving test and then the DL testing queues will extend even longer, which means more job security for the testers.

Im missing your pionts , however I suppose the 1st Myth is still not disproven then.

If one of the many Polish or Lithunian cars on Irish roads hits you and causes life affecting injuries , the policy that insures them will only pay out 160,000 euro.

Hardly enough to support you in ireland over a long period after medical expenses. Not to mention polish premuims are cheaper. So as an irish citizen you have to pay irish insurance premuims to support irish limits but as a driver of a polish vehicle you pay less insurance for less cover unsuitable to support an Irish claim yet your are able to drive irish roads.

As for the second one I will try and recall why they do such things.

* Note I have no problem with either polish our Lithunian migrants just your vehicles , Welcome to Ireland.

Captain Trips · 01-05-2007 3:50pm

dochasach wrote:

Thanks for reminding me of another myth. Actually there was some truth in it. As is typical in Irish immigration law, there was a huge loophole and after it was reported even more people took advantage of it, but it was closed in March of 2006.

Many immigrants have the opposite problem, we pay full taxes and yet we are ineligible for child benefits.

On the matter of child benefits, I was incorrect - the debated figure is actually €150 Million per year. Furthermore, it is not "typical in Irish...law" - the UK has the exact same problem.

The Habitual Residence Requirement is NOT a requirement for EU and EEA workers. EU and EEA nationals can claim Irish benefits even if their child is living in another country.

Irish child benefits: ~€140/week
Poland child benefits: €11/week

Migrant Resource Centre http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/accessing_socialprotect.htm - from the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland.
Irish Council of Civil Liberties http://www.iccl.ie/DB_Data/publications/04_draft_referendumpaper.pdf
You said this was a "loophole" and was closed - yet clearly it hasn't as it is still advised to migrants of EU countries to do this. I.E - you lied in your repsonse, or were not aware of what Migrants are being advised to do to claim and extract benefits from Ireland and move them to other poorer countries.

The MIgrant Rescource Centre of Ireland advises people to claim child benefits if their child is not resident in the state - as that is legal and has not been a loophole that has closed, as you incorrectly stated.

I will reiterate - a migrant worker from any EU state can claim the (very high) child benefits from Ireland and move them to the child in Poland. This is money that Irish taxes paid for, and yet Irish citizens will see none of. It costs ~€150 Million per year. The poor immigrant who gets no benefits does not exist - as the state will give full child benefits to ANY person worker here - EU or EEA or Zimbabwe.

I think it is outrageous that over €100 Million is taken from Irish children and sent to Poland. Next time your grandmother waits 8 hrs for chest pain in A/E, or a children in Clondalkin go to school in prefabs, think of the Polish kid in Krakow. I'm sure he is glad you paid your taxes. I'm sure he's glad a nation 4 million people is supporting a nation of 40 million. When Ireland was a net receiver of payments from the EU, we were a tiny blip - about the population of a single French or German or Italian city on the grand EU cash radar.

Or maybe some of that could fix the Galway water treatment problem. No - instead it goes to supporting a country 10 times our population while people in Galway get parasite infections.

dochasach wrote:

I meant the number of births on the island of Ireland. I dug up the statistics several years ago when the citizenship referendum was up for a vote. I won't bother digging them up again, facts are notoriously ineffective in shaping opinion.

http://www.esr.ie/Vol32_2fahy.pdf

However, the Irish birth rate is now dropping. 1980: 70064 births. 1994: 48255. 2002: 60521.

Population replacement rate among Irish citizens is around 1.9, below the replacement rate. Having children does not go well with rampant consumerism. Having children is for the poor and working class. irish people don't want children.

Fact is: a higher proportion of births now than 20 years ago are to foreign born mothers - EU or not. While the influx of Polish are sitting pretty taking hundreds of millions out of the economy to feed their own children in Poland, the few *Irish* children left (as seen by the falling birth rates) won't have access to any of this cash.

So, Irish taxes are now going to support the children of Poland - which has a rising birth rate, and not Irish children, who are dwindling in number.

GarraiGamhain · 01-05-2007 4:49pm

Poland child benefits: €11/week

Jesus..What a ****hole. We're a very small country to be supporting such a larger one financially and its something that should only be for the short term. Poland needs to get in step with the rest of Europe.

Fratton Fred · 01-05-2007 5:42pm

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Jesus..What a ****hole. We're a very small country to be supporting such a larger one financially and its something that should only be for the short term. Poland needs to get in step with the rest of Europe.

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Poland is in the same position Ireland was 15 years ago, now Ireland is wealthy and is having to pay it's dues.

That is why it is called the european community.

Still, it's not like the Irish have ever gone abroad looking for work is it:rolleyes:

Captain Trips · 01-05-2007 5:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote:

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Poland is in the same position Ireland was 15 years ago, now Ireland is wealthy and is having to pay it's dues.

That is why it is called the european community.

Still, it's not like the Irish have ever gone abroad looking for work is it:rolleyes:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

Again, Ireland is a tiny country - EU aid helped enormously, but it was 200 million people helping 4 million.

The only countries that allow this are Ireland, UK and Sweden which all have adopted a similar policy with the accession states. Including a tiny country like Ireland is not a big deal for big countries - that even now realised why they shouldn't adopt the Swedish/UK/Ireland approach. This was Germany, France, Italy, etc,. . They all supported Ireland for many years, but it's swung far FAR back on us.
Can you comment on how this is the same thing because I can't see how it would be, especially as people can barely afford child care in Ireland as it is, why more money should be thrown abroad carelessly.

Ireland = tiny country, got money from loads of huge countries.

Ireland = supporting a country with ten times it's population now.

Does it make sense? Clearly the government is misdirecting money away from the needed child care areas in OUR OWN country which surely should be taken care of first.

Zambia · 01-05-2007 5:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote:

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Wonder how much we spent on magic beans??

Fratton Fred · 01-05-2007 5:56pm

Captain Trips wrote:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

Again, Ireland is a tiny country - EU aid helped enormously, but it was 200 million people helping 4 million.

Can you comment on how this is the same thing because I can't see how it would be, especially as people can barely afford child care in Ireland as it is, why more money should be thrown abroad carelessly.

Ireland = tiny country, got money from loads of huge countries.

Ireland = supporting a country with ten times it's population now.

Does it make sense? Clearly the government is misdirecting money away from the needed child care areas in OUR OWN country which surely should be taken care of first.

Oh, so every person that left Poland went to Ireland. Don't for a minute think Ireland is unique in this, it is just new that is all.

And where do you think EU money comes from, it all comes out of us tax payers.

Captain Trips · 01-05-2007 5:59pm

I am still waiting for a reasonable repsonse to the following:

a) Why funds generated by Irish tax payers are not being giving to Irish services like child care, child benefits and education, social housing, etc.,

b) Why a tiny country should be sending so much money abroad when all other EU countries except for UK and Sweden have chosen NOT to.

Arguments restricted to 2007 please.

darkman2 · 01-05-2007 6:10pm

dochasach wrote:

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen, and apparently Minister McDowell know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes. Because of this, and the fact that boards.ie still doesn't have a dedicated forum to discuss immigration, I think this is a good time and place to address some myths about immigrants which are almost univerally accepted by the voting public:

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

Myth #1: "You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house, car, the lot. But if you are Irish, born, bred and reared and are down on your luck you get nothing."

This was quoted from a post on boards.ie and I can assure you that immigrants, including those who claim political asylum, do not receive a free car or free house here and in fact may not avail of many benefits which are available to Irish citizens. For example, child benefit is not payable to asylum-seekers who arrived in Ireland after the 1st May 2004.

Myth #2: "You can get automatic citizenship by having a child here."

As far as I know, this has never been true. It certainly isn't true now and the more we spread the word around the world, the less likely people will come here thinking this is the case. The problem is, as recently as early 2007, RTE (Ireland's tax subsidized national T.V. station) was still reporting this myth as fact. The citizenship referendum (voted by a majority, understood by a minority), did nothing but remove the automatic citizenship right of children born in Ireland. The parents never had that right.

Myth #3: "Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

While it's true that immigrants helped build many of the houses, it was under direction of Irish property developers and investment interests. For the most part, immigrants have been left off the bottom of the property ladder. How many recent Polish or Nigerian immigrants do you know who are able to drop 350,000 euro on an average Dublin house? Some might wonder if they're contributing to rental demand, that may be true but property prices vs rent yields are currently at an all time low which suggests either an undersupply of tenants or an oversupply of homes. The truth of this matter is that we were in a speculative bubble and according to the last census approximately 250,000 Irish houses sit empty, their owners relying on capital appreciation.

Myth #4: "Immigrants can get automatic citizenship by marrying an Irish person."

Tánaiste McDowell recently introduced a fast-track law to address this myth, but you are only eligible for citizenship after marrying an Irish person and living here at least 5 years.

Myth #5: "Immigrants get automatic citizenship by living in Ireland for 5 years."
You are eligable to apply for citizenship _after_ reckonable residence of at least 5 years, then you must wait several years for the application to be processed. The years spent awaiting decisions on immigration issues do not count as reckonable residence.

Myth #6: "Immigrants are eligible for a green card after living in Ireland for 5 years." The laws were written such that many who have lived here much longer than 5 years are only eligible for short term visas.

Myth #7: "Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate." Traffic fatalities are actually lower than they were years before the immigrants came. Many countries where these immigrants come from have lower traffic fatality rates than here. The problem we're a 1st world country with a 4th world road infrastructure, and we drive too fast.

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now. Of the 4 immigrants in Holles when our child was born, two of them were Philipinos, a nurse and an obstetrician. The problem is really mismanagement of the resources we have.

These are only 8 myths off the top of my head. Don't be surprised if you had no idea this was the way things worked here. From my experience, many who work in the immigration department have no idea what the real law is or the real obstacles faced by immigrants.

I know how this thread will end up!:rolleyes:

Zambia · 01-05-2007 6:56pm

darkman2 wrote:

I know how this thread will end up!:rolleyes:

I can see where it could go but the last Immigration thread remained civil.

ircoha · 01-05-2007 7:10pm

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

Captain Trips · 01-05-2007 10:53pm

ircoha wrote:

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

I am only hearing these myths for the first time. Again, lets forget about myths and concentrate on reality.

Please stop setting fabricated argument goal posts - no one on this forum has even defended any of these myths but I still see no intelligent responses to my previous questions.

I don't think anyone cares about myths - they have little to do with reality after all. Let's discuss the reality of the situation in modern Ireland with regard to benefits, education and health seeing as those are the topics that your myths refer to.

WHere are you getting these myths? - no-one on these boards has ever proposed such outrageous suggestions. What it does suggest is that you wish to label people who wish proper discussion as being racist, while appearing clearly racist yourself in suggesting that Irish people believe these "Myths". Stop being racist against Irish people.

How about some FACTS about modern Ireland that has been created over the past decade:

Where did this 1500 teachers myth come from? Did you just make it up? I've never heard anyone mention anything so outrageous. What IS a FACT is that out teacher: pupil ratio has continued to change in the wrong direction, which can be attributed to increase in class sizes.

Now, with the Irish population not having children - where do you think the extra numbers are coming from? Myth? Out of the big myth bucket?

1. FACT - Ireland pays over €100 million per year to child benefits abroad while Irish children do not have access to this tax generated money.

2. FACT - Irish suicide rates have doubled since 1987 and over that period there has been a corresponding decrease in the portion of the health budget for the mental health services

3. FACT - We have a pupil: teacher ratio of 20.3. This is here http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_pup_tea_rat_pri_lev-pupils-teacher-ratio-primary-level. Ironically, Poland's ratio is just over 10, so they have double the number of teachers for their school population, yet we *still* foot the bill in Ireland while we rank almost at the bottom of Europe now for teachers : pupils.

NOWHERE< has anyone said 1500 teachers are going for language problems, etc., . The only myths are made up by you.

dochasach · 02-05-2007 12:18am

Captain Trips wrote:

On the matter of child benefits, I was incorrect - the debated figure is actually €150 Million per year. Furthermore, it is not "typical in Irish...law" - the UK has the exact same problem.

The Habitual Residence Requirement is NOT a requirement for EU and EEA workers. EU and EEA nationals can claim Irish benefits even if their child is living in another country.

Irish child benefits: ~€140/week
Poland child benefits: €11/week

Migrant Resource Centre http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/accessing_socialprotect.htm - from the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland.
Irish Council of Civil Liberties http://www.iccl.ie/DB_Data/publications/04_draft_referendumpaper.pdf
You said this was a "loophole" and was closed - yet clearly it hasn't as it is still advised to migrants of EU countries to do this. I.E - you lied in your repsonse, or were not aware of what Migrants are being advised to do to claim and extract benefits from Ireland and move them to other poorer countries.

The MIgrant Rescource Centre of Ireland advises people to claim child benefits if their child is not resident in the state - as that is legal and has not been a loophole that has closed, as you incorrectly stated.

MRCI is an independent immigration advocacy organization, if government employees don't understand the government's own laws, how do you expect outsiders to? Here from the horses mouth: http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/families/cb.html:

Department of Social and Family Affairs
An Roinn Gnóthaí Sóisialacha agus Teaghlaigh
Child Benefit

Child Benefit is a benefit paid every month for each qualified child normally living with you and being supported by you. A qualified child is:

* a child under age 16
and/or
* a child aged 16, 17 or 18
- who is in full-time education, or
- is attending a FÁS YOUTHREACH course, or
- is physically or mentally disabled and dependent on you.

Captain Trips wrote:

I will reiterate - a migrant worker from any EU state can claim the (very high) child benefits from Ireland and move them to the child in Poland. This is money that Irish taxes paid for, and yet Irish citizens will see none of.

This money comes from all taxes, both those paid by Irish and those paid by the foreign worker. As the governmen website above states that it is for children supported by parents. This benefit goes overwhelmingly to workers (i.e. taxpayers) with children. In other countries they call this a tax rebate for dependent care, Ireland used to call it a "Children's Allowance." Those who construe it as free money that goes only to immigrants are just plain wrong. Call this Myth #42.

It costs ~€150 Million per year. The poor immigrant who gets no benefits does not exist - as the state will give full child benefits to ANY person worker here - EU or EEA or Zimbabwe.

No, non-E.U. immigrants must be considered "habitually resident" before they qualify for any child benefits and even though I've been here more than half a decade, I've yet to collect the "Early Childcare Supplement", which appears to be only for E.U. citizens even though it is also partially supported by taxes paid by immigrants.

Where did the 150 Million/year number come from, I didn't see it when glancing at the links you sent? It sounds like a journalist or politician scaremongering but consider this: Polish workers helped build about 80,000 houses per year which at the current average price of €309,071 contributed about 24 Billion to the Irish economy (160 times the Child benefit estimate). A couple billion more will be collected in stamp duty, not to mention income tax, VAT tax and other financial benefits Ireland would not see if he were laying bricks in Warsaw.

... When Ireland was a net receiver of payments from the EU, we were a tiny blip - about the population of a single French or German or Italian city on the grand EU cash radar.

Or maybe some of that could fix the Galway water treatment problem. No - instead it goes to supporting a country 10 times our population while people in Galway get parasite infections.

Wait a minute, now you're blaming immigrants for Galway's water problem? The government should be rolling in money right now because of the economic boom. The fact that this money isn't managed correctly in order to get results is a problem that immigrants, sadly have nothing to do with and probably can't fix. They can't vote here. That's youre job.

As for Ireland's economic magnitude, I could be wrong but I think you underestimate the gap between the Irish and Polish economy. You say Poland has 10 times the population of Ireland, but your numbers above suggests that the Polish economy is on the order of 1/10th that of Ireland. In fact average wages in Poland are about 5520 Euro, about 1/5th the average here.

While we're complaining about money flowing across borders and disrupting lives, why don't we see newspaper articles about Polish, Bulgarian, Turkish and even Spanish nationals being priced out of their homes by Irish speculators? When someone distorts the economics of a faraway land with speculative vacation homes, shouldn't he be prepared to accept the people he displaces?

http://www.google.com/trends?q=property+poland&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

mikemac · 02-05-2007 12:30am

Zambia232 wrote:

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

It's a good thread OP, can you expand on this one?
If you claim asulym, don't you have to do so at the first safe country you arrive in?
I've heard from a few sources that there are no direct flights between Ireland and Nigeria. I don't know the route that Nigerian asulym seekers take to come to Ireland but if they stop in the UK or France for example, why not look for help there? Why travel onwards?

I'm using Nigeria as an example as it's the country most often discussed in Ireland for situations like this

dochasach · 02-05-2007 12:31am

ircoha wrote:

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

I agree with Captain Trips on this one, I hadn't heard these myths but most of the ones I mentioned at the start of this thread well enough ingrained that I'm confident I'm not the only one who has encountered them.

Is the belief that many immigrants are criminals common enough to qualify as Myth 9 or would this be an unfair assumption? The news media seems quick to assume that the baddy is a foreigner. When a dismembered body was found in the canal we read about african ritual killings and only later learned that it was the work of indigenous "scissor sisters."

dochasach · 02-05-2007 12:51am

micmclo wrote:

It's a good thread OP, can you expand on this one?
If you claim asulym, don't you have to do so at the first safe country you arrive in?
I've heard from a few sources that there are no direct flights between Ireland and Nigeria. I don't know the route that Nigerian asulym seekers take to come to Ireland but if they stop in the UK or France for example, why not look for help there? Why travel onwards?

I'm using Nigeria as an example as it's the country most often discussed in Ireland for situations like this

I don't know either, but there was quite a bit of hype regarding asylum seekers considering their numbers. There were 4314 Asylum seeker applications last year, the lowest number since 1998: http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/culture.htm
I think the rejection rate is close to 50% so we're really talking about a small inflow, the Nigerians are a percentage of that and those who are here on false pretense are a small percentage of that. For comparison, there are approximately 30,000 Irish citizens living illegally in New York City alone. Thanks to a convenient skin colour and allies like Bertie and Clinton, they'll probably move to the top of the queue ahead of 10 million illegal immigrants from Mexico. As you probably know, Mexico's economy is not as robust as Ireland's currently is and an illegal immigrant from Mexico is much less likely to find a job in his own country, yet you don't see Mexico's president Felipe Calderón lobbying on behalf of illegal immigrants from his country.

Captain Trips · 02-05-2007 8:43am

dochasach wrote:

MRCI is an independent immigration advocacy organization, if government employees don't understand the government's own laws, how do you expect outsiders to? Here from the horses mouth: http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/families/cb.html:

Department of Social and Family Affairs
An Roinn Gnóthaí Sóisialacha agus Teaghlaigh
Child Benefit

You've onlu provided a part-answer. the Habitual Residence Requirement, which is required to claim beneifts, is NOT a requirement for EU or EEA nationals.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.

The website you linked to is out of date in this regard, and you can see clearly that the Citizens Information site states that the requirement is not necessary for

One-Parent Family Payment
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
Family Income Supplement
Child Benefit.

So, you could please comment further on how Ireland is supporting families and children not born nor have ever been resident here? I used the MRCI site, as it would avoid accusations of racism - I am using migrant and public resource websites for references.

FACT: Ireland does not require children to have been resident in the state, nor does it require the minimum 2 years residence to claim benefits. Those benefits can be paid to children not resident in the state to any other EU or EEA state. Only Ireland, UK and Sweden allow this - no other EU state does.

This money comes from all taxes, both those paid by Irish and those paid by the foreign worker. As the governmen website above states that it is for children supported by parents. This benefit goes overwhelmingly to workers (i.e. taxpayers) with children. In other countries they call this a tax rebate for dependent care, Ireland used to call it a "Children's Allowance." Those who construe it as free money that goes only to immigrants are just plain wrong. Call this Myth #42.

I would think that more Irish people are paying into the Irish tax kitty than non-Irish workers here. Hence, it is primarily Irish taxpayer money being spent abroad.

No, non-E.U. immigrants must be considered "habitually resident" before they qualify for any child benefits and even though I've been here more than half a decade, I've yet to collect the "Early Childcare Supplement", which appears to be only for E.U. citizens even though it is also partially supported by taxes paid by immigrants.

Your personal circumstances are not relevant to the argument, I think.

Where did the 150 Million/year number come from, I didn't see it when glancing at the links you sent? It sounds like a journalist or politician scaremongering but consider this:

The benefits are around €1000/year (low estimate as currently it is ~€140/month) for around 100,000 people (which is ~20% of the migrant population in Ireland who have dependent children). In case you missed it, it was reported by Irish Time and Independent around 8 weeks ago, have a google.

Polish workers helped build about 80,000 houses per year which at the current average price of €309,071 contributed about 24 Billion to the Irish economy (160 times the Child benefit estimate).

Thanks for taking credit for all of the home built last year. How many exactly? All homes? by all Polish workers? Source please? I don't think you'll find one. Are you really suggesting that Polish workers built every single house in Ireland last year?

And that all of the asking price of each house is a "contribution" to the Irish economy? You realise that that is 24 billion borrowed by Irish people primarily to purchase those homes? Stop using magic maths. What is a contribution?

A couple billion more will be collected in stamp duty, not to mention income tax, VAT tax and other financial benefits Ireland would not see if he were laying bricks in Warsaw.

Give me numbers, not ideas. Give me facts and not suggestions.

Wait a minute, now you're blaming immigrants for Galway's water problem? The government should be rolling in money right now because of the economic boom. The fact that this money isn't managed correctly in order to get results is a problem that immigrants, sadly have nothing to do with and probably can't fix. They can't vote here. That's youre job.

I am suggesting that money sent abroad to support non-resident children could have been better spent fixing local sanitation problems and education facilities for Irish people and resident EU and EEA nationals in Ireland.

As for Ireland's economic magnitude, I could be wrong but I think you underestimate the gap between the Irish and Polish economy. You say Poland has 10 times the population of Ireland, but your numbers above suggests that the Polish economy is on the order of 1/10th that of Ireland. In fact average wages in Poland are about 5520 Euro, about 1/5th the average here.

This is in a tangent to the original argument I had - that Poland has a population 10 times that of Ireland, yet Ireland is supporting children in POland without any minimum residence requirement of the parents in Ireland. This is what the Citizens Information (Government run) and MRCI (VOlunteer run) sites advise, as linked above. I never in any of the above points said anything of the Polish economy - whatever you infer from it is your business. I mentioned NOTHING of the Polish "economy".

It is NOT about the "economy" - a vacuous and ambiguous term. I am talking population numbers because that is what is relevant - a much smaller country supporting a much larger country, and only the UK and Sweden are the only other EU countries to have such a ridiculous situation when services in the home country are so poor.

While we're complaining about money flowing across borders and disrupting lives, why don't we see newspaper articles about Polish, Bulgarian, Turkish and even Spanish nationals being priced out of their homes by Irish speculators? When someone distorts the economics of a faraway land with speculative vacation homes, shouldn't he be prepared to accept the people he displaces?

http://www.google.com/trends?q=property+poland&ctab=0

This is going way off the point and the thread I think - it is about myths and (my) rebuttals to facts about immigrants in Ireland.

Captain Trips · 02-05-2007 9:01am

I'll reiterate the main part of my argument here, for anyone who wishes to make a reasonable debate:

1. Non-irish EU and EEA workers can claim family and child benefits in Ireland

2. Those workers do not have to meet Habitual Resident Requirements. This is referenced :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland

3. As such, non-reisdent EU and EEA children have access to benefits paid for primarily by the Irish tax payer. The child may have never even resided or visited Ireland. The parent can be working in Ireland for as little as a week to claim them.

4. The benefits are around €140/week - over 10 times what they are in Poland.

5. Only the UK, Ireland and Sweden allow this transfer of benefits across borders. No other EU country, including Poland, allows the payment of benefits to non-resident workers.

mikemac · 02-05-2007 10:18am

dochasach wrote:

I don't know either, but there was quite a bit of hype regarding asylum seekers considering their numbers. There were 4314 Asylum seeker applications last year, the lowest number since 1998: http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/culture.htm
I think the rejection rate is close to 50% so we're really talking about a small inflow, the Nigerians are a percentage of that and those who are here on false pretense are a small percentage of that. For comparison, there are approximately 30,000 Irish citizens living illegally in New York City alone.

You didn't answer my question at all but instead posted about the Irish in America.
All I want to know is why don't Nigerian asulym seekers seek help in the first safe country they arrive in as they are supposed to?
And since there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland, I can't understand how they arrive here. There's a fault in the system somewhere.
May seem like an obvious question to all you experts but I can't understand it.

Fratton Fred · 02-05-2007 10:22am

micmclo wrote:

You didn't answer my question at all but instead posted about the Irish in America.
All I want to know is why don't Nigerian asulym seekers seek help in the first safe country they arrive in as they are supposed to?
And since there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland, I can't understand how they arrive here. There's a fault in the system somewhere.
May seem like an obvious question to all you experts but I can't understand it.

it's pretty simple, the country they first arrive in can't wait to ship them on somewhere else. It's not an Irish question either, there are people all over Europe asking the same thing.

One possibility, is that Asylum in Ireland may be easier to acquire than the UK, once settled in Ireland, the UK is just a short, very easy, hop away.

take a look at this http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=261

Zombrex · 02-05-2007 10:36am

Captain Trips wrote:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

You had me up to here.

You were making interesting points about the strain put on the child benefit system by immigration (not that I consider that a negative against immigration, rather the current running of the Social Welfare system)

But now you are just talking nonsense rhetoric. Ireland is not support thing the child care system of 40 million people

Once again a immigration thread on Boards has descended into scaremongering nonsense

:rolleyes:

Rejecting some myths about Immigrants

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