Rejecting some myths about Immigrants

Gobán Saor

Mucco wrote:

I honestly don't know why people feel threatened by immigrants. Most (probably all) of them are looking to better their lives. Various studies have shown that immigrants are more ambitious and hard-working than the native population. This is evidenced in that the largest economy in the world is a country based on immigration.

In any case, what's the difference between an Irish-born person you don't know getting this imaginary television and an immigrant you don't know?

Sigh:( This is about more than the odd TV set. I am simply pointing out:

1. The basic standard of living we afford to successful asylum-seekers (namely, free housing, free comprehensive medical and dental care, free education to third level for their children as well as a free basic income) is attractive enough compared to circumstances in many parts of the world to generate quite a significant "pull factor" into this country.

2. This also provides a strong incentive to make bogus claims.

3. We have almost no measures in place to deter bogus claims.


Human nature being what it is, when you combine a strong incentive to make bogus claims with no penalties for doing so, guess what - you tend to get lots of bogus claims.

Gobán Saor

Wicknight wrote:

I think it is stretching it a bit to claim that people abandon their home, family and country to come to Ireland for our health service. Its not that great.

As if on cue, today's Irish Times, page 2, reports on the case of a Nigerian mother of two who wants to stay here to avail of services and schooling for her 6 year old son who has been diagnosed with autism.

She arrived here from Italy where she had already secured a residence permit but she claimed she fled that country because she feared persecution due to her former husband's outspoken criticism of criminality among the Nigerian expatriate population. Her application has already been rejected by ORAC, by the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, the minister and the High Court. She now wants the Minister to "re-consider" and held a press conference in Bantry yeaterday where she was supported by general election candidates from FF, FG, SF and Green parties.

By what stretch of the imagination can fear of persecution by criminals in a Western European country, a member of the EU, be even considered as grounds for asylum.

Hoops1888

You might of also heard that immigrants get free food and think this isnt free? I can asure you they get better fed than half the people in Ireland.

Wish I got a prawn salad as a starter everyday

InFront

We have almost no measures in place to deter bogus claims.

This is incorrect, and nullifies the previous two points. A few years ago when Ireland was discovering its economic feet, there were few provisions to deter false claims, this is no longer the case. There is now a fast track system for processing asylum claims (despite the wasteful inefficiency of immigration services here), biometric data electronic fingerprinting, and it is the policy to disallow free access of services to those who are not legitimate claimants under the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. Furthermore, asylum applications are down down 63% since 2002, and the lowest they have been in almost 10 years.

InFront

Gob&#225 wrote: »

As if on cue, today's Irish Times, page 2, reports on the case of a Nigerian mother of two who wants to stay here to avail of services and schooling for her 6 year old son who has been diagnosed with autism.

Clearly Mrs Agbonlahor has no idea about the extent of autistic support services in Ireland.

Mucco

Hoops1888 wrote:

You might of also heard that immigrants get free food and think this isnt free? I can asure you they get better fed than half the people in Ireland.

Wish I got a prawn salad as a starter everyday

Why don't you throw away your passport, claim asylum, live in a hostel and get your €19.10 per week from the government?

Mucco

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Sigh:( This is about more than the odd TV set. I am simply pointing out:

1. The basic standard of living we afford to successful asylum-seekers (namely, free housing, free comprehensive medical and dental care, free education to third level for their children as well as a free basic income) is attractive enough compared to circumstances in many parts of the world to generate quite a significant "pull factor" into this country.

2. This also provides a strong incentive to make bogus claims.

3. We have almost no measures in place to deter bogus claims.


Human nature being what it is, when you combine a strong incentive to make bogus claims with no penalties for doing so, guess what - you tend to get lots of bogus claims.

Why does this threaten you?
We should be proud our country is wealthy enough to offer this to others. I have benefited from the Irish education system, and have a good job, asylum seekers and immigrants don't threaten me at all. In fact, they make life a lot more interesting.

Gobán Saor

Mucco wrote:

Why does this threaten you?
We should be proud our country is wealthy enough to offer this to others. I have benefited from the Irish education system, and have a good job, asylum seekers and immigrants don't threaten me at all. In fact, they make life a lot more interesting.

So you're saying, in effect, that simply because we can afford to be defrauded, we should tolerate it gladly and be proud we can afford it. This is a strange attitude to take to any type of fraud be it bogus asylum-seeking, tax evasion, social welfare fraud or agricultural grant fraud.
Or do you think it's ok, say, for a farmer to claim headage grants for non-existent animals? Any type of fraud on State funds is the very antithesis of proper civic-mindedness and should be strongly discouraged.

BTW I draw a clear distinction between immigrants (legal) and genuine asylum-seekers on the one hand and bogus asylum-seekers on the other hand. I have no problem with those who come here legally.and, yes, they do, in fact, make Irish society more interesting. That does not mean we should adopt an open door policy and let every one who pretends to be a refugee in to Ireland

Zambia

Mucco wrote:

I honestly don't know why people feel threatened by immigrants. Most (probably all) of them are looking to better their lives. Various studies have shown that immigrants are more ambitious and hard-working than the native population.

I think you have answered your own question there. It shows the rest of us up because we all get twice as lazy. :rolleyes:

purple'n'gold

Gob&#225 wrote: »

As if on cue, today's Irish Times, page 2, reports on the case of a Nigerian mother of two who wants to stay here to avail of services and schooling for her 6 year old son who has been diagnosed with autism.

She arrived here from Italy where she had already secured a residence permit but she claimed she fled that country because she feared persecution due to her former husband's outspoken criticism of criminality among the Nigerian expatriate population. Her application has already been rejected by ORAC, by the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, the minister and the High Court. She now wants the Minister to "re-consider" and held a press conference in Bantry yeaterday where she was supported by general election candidates from FF, FG, SF and Green parties.

By what stretch of the imagination can fear of persecution by criminals in a Western European country, a member of the EU, be even considered as grounds for asylum.

The answer to this is perfectly simple. She should be sent back to Italy IMMEDIATELY. She should not be here.

Mucco

Gob&#225 wrote: »

So you're saying, in effect, that simply because we can afford to be defrauded, we should tolerate it gladly and be proud we can afford it.

I've a funny feeling we've been through this before.
Asylum claimants are entitled to accommodation, food and €19 a week (frozen since November 1999). You may find living in a hostel, without privacy, with nothing to do, to be the lap of luxury. I find it strange people get so exercised about a relatively small amount of money, and seem to think that asylum seekers are treated better than Irish natives.
You may call it fraud when an asylum claim is rejected, but I'd much rather have several 'bogus' asylum seekers in the country than send an Iraqi family home to Baghdad because we're too cheap to offer them shelter.
Why not put yourself in their position and decide what you would do?

Zombrex

Gob&#225 wrote: »

So you're saying, in effect, that simply because we can afford to be defrauded, we should tolerate it gladly and be proud we can afford it.

I think he is saying is that we should continue the system despite the bogus claims because to do otherwise would mean we risk turning away real claims. We can afford to do this at the moment.

Its like saying why bother having free legal add for the poor when most criminals are guilty. You don't have it for the guilty ones, which make up the vast majority and where the vast majority of the money goes. You have it for the handful that are actually innocent.

Far Corfe

Fratton Fred wrote:

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Remind me what value of fish has been taken from Irish waters by EU fleets over this same period?

Far Corfe

Those that benefit from immigration are those that employ and house immigrants, companies that like plenty of cheap labour, people who like cheap cleaners, and speculating property investors (who tend to be rich and enjoy lower costs and fatter profits). Those who lose from immigration are those who compete with immigrants (who tend to be poor, and suffer lower wages and higher rents).

Tea drinker

Far Corfe wrote:

Remind me what value of fish has been taken from Irish waters by EU fleets over this same period?

The one that has been fished halfway to extintion because of this?
The one where the Irish fishing fleets have to be scaled back because of this overfishing?

Somebody in political circles (P.Flynn?) did cough this up recently (strange as it was such an obvious ongoing issue for many years)... can't remember the exact figure, but he asserted the value is a very significant portion of the funds Ireland received from EU.
Anyway, the thread is not DIRECTLY about balancing the scales with the EU, but it's relevant information.

Wicknight wrote:

Last time I checked the HSE wasn't paying for my house or providing me with an income.

No that's because the gov already pay your wages!!!:
this is just a smoke screen, He's talking about people on the dole or some equivalent subsistence scheme, not well heeled professionals like yerself!

Wicknight wrote:

I work at the moment (on contract) for the public service.

Wicknight wrote:

Well its good to see this thread isn't going to descend into nonsense generalisations ...

and then:

Wicknight wrote:

But then Irish people have always liked a scape goat to hang real problems on.

I know how much you value my tutilage Wicknight, but if you pull in your horns a bit you will contribute more....:D
Good job otherwise. (he's got to rise to that...)

My tuppence? Loose immigration policies are a great Anti immigration tool, they get the natives all stirred up because of injustices.
Perception is just as important as reality, meeja and taxi drivers have a lot to answer for as well.
I will say what I said in the last thread, that having pre-trained workers arriving here (when there is a need for their skills) is a great thing.
We have well educated people for free. They are contributing to economy for sure, and are contributing to our understanding of world affairs. generally a mind broadening excercise.
However I will accept that they made some property investors dreams come true, and have enlarged the class gaps.

oscarBravo

Tea drinker wrote:

I know how much you value my tutilage Wicknight, but if you pull in your horns a bit you will contribute more....:D
Good job otherwise. (he's got to rise to that...)

I'd rather he didn't, and I'd appreciate you not baiting other posters - tongue in cheek or otherwise.

Far Corfe

Mucco wrote:

I honestly don't know why people feel threatened by immigrants.

You are not an office cleaner then?

Far Corfe

Mucco wrote:

This is evidenced in that the largest economy in the world is a country based on immigration.

The largest economy in the world allows you immigrate if they think they need you, not if you just want to go. And then you sink or swim, without welfare handouts.

Angelique

I am an EU citizen living in this country.

I work, my husband works, we pay taxes. We just bought a house. No handouts from the goverment there:D

We are bringing our children up here and we intend to stay here for good. My children do not feel they are foreigners here, they feel they are Irish and this pleases me because I want them to feel part of this country and to contribute to Irish society later on in their life.

The key to immigration is INTEGRATION.

Appeasing the immigrant minority by putting up signs in Polish or doing an African festival in the local primary school during St Patrick's Week is simply cultural suicide :eek:

EU immigration is inevitable but certain laws can be brought it. Being fluent in English being top priority.

Unfortunately many Eastern Europeans coming in accept very low wages and this in turn has a very bad effect on people who expect to earn a decent living and feed their families.

In the last couple of years there has been mass immigration from Africa and other third world countries into Ireland. What is going on?
How are they getting in? These are the questions we should all be asking.

Zambia

Welcome to Ireland

Zombrex

Angelique wrote:

In the last couple of years there has been mass immigration from Africa and other third world countries into Ireland. What is going on?
How are they getting in? These are the questions we should all be asking.

Define "mass immigration"

Angelique

Zambia232 wrote:

Welcome to Ireland

Thanks

Angelique

Wicknight wrote:

Define "mass immigration"

Surely I do not have to define third world mass immigration to you. It is happening all over Europe, and it is certainly happening in Ireland.

Just take a look around you.

Gobán Saor

Wicknight wrote:

Define "mass immigration"

Well, let me try. Mass immigration could be many things defined by number or proportion or ratio or what ever. Perhaps we should talk about unwarranted immigration instead. How about this for size? Did you know more Nigerians seek asylum in Ireland than in any other country? Don’t believe me? The UNHCR helpfully publishes annual summary statistics showing number of asylum seekers from every country to every other country. http://www.unhcr.org/statistics/STATISTICS/464478a72.html And, unbelievably, we get more Nigerians than any other nation on earth. For example, in 2000, out of 8800 Nigerian asylum seekers worldwide, 3400 fetched up in Ireland. Since the citizenship and direct provision reforms, the numbers have fallen to about 1200 in 2005 but this is still 12% of all Nigerian applicants and still more than any other country on the planet. Now the really odd thing is that asylum seekers are supposed to apply for asylum in the very first safe country they arrive in after leaving their home country. Here’s the bit I don’t understand – how do you get from Nigeria to Ireland without passing through any safe country en route? In attempting to answer this question bear in mind there are NO scheduled direct air links between Nigeria and Ireland. And yet the bleeding hearts still can't see anything wrong with this level of disproportionality. Do you not even have the tiniest little suspicion than something might be amiss?

It is as plain as a pikestaff – we are being taken for a ride.:mad: :mad:

OPENROAD

Its funny that some people who bash `newcomers` with zeal are also vocal supporters of legalising Irish illegal immigrants in the USA.



Very good point, I say kick out all the illeagal Irish in the US, send them back on the first plane to Ireland.;)

Gobán Saor

OPENROAD wrote:

Its funny that some people who bash `newcomers` with zeal are also vocal supporters of legalising Irish illegal immigrants in the USA.



Very good point, I say kick out all the illeagal Irish in the US, send them back on the first plane to Ireland.;)

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I don't bash newcomers - at least the ones that are here legally and abide by our laws. As far as I am concerned all EU citizens are welcome here as are all genuine asylum seekers and refugees.
Nor do I carry any particular torch for the illegal Irish in the US. Every state including the USA (and Ireland) is perfectly entitled to determine its own immigration policies and rules. Those rules should be respected by aspiring immigrants if they wish to be welcomed in the host country. That applies equally to Nigerians in Ireland and to the Irish in the USA. Is that so unreasonable?

OPENROAD

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I don't bash newcomers - at least the ones that are here legally and abide by our laws. As far as I am concerned all EU citizens are welcome here as are all genuine asylum seekers and refugees.
Nor do I carry any particular torch for the illegal Irish in the US. Every state including the USA (and Ireland) is perfectly entitled to determine its own immigration policies and rules. Those rules should be respected by aspiring immigrants if they wish to be welcomed in the host country. That applies equally to Nigerians in Ireland and to the Irish in the USA. Is that so unreasonable?

No not unreasonable, but you see a good chunk of Irish people see the Irish in the US as undocumented rather than illegal, and that they should be allowed stay and howterrible it is that they can't come home for holidays or other events.Also lots of Irish do not integrate in host countries, instead setting up own GAA clubs, drinking in Irish pubs etc.. so fair is fair, just like people coming here should respect our values, we too should do the same.

Gobán Saor

OPENROAD wrote:

No not unreasonable, but you see a good chunk of Irish people see the Irish in the US as undocumented rather than illegal, and that they should be allowed stay and how they can't come home for holidays or other events.Also lots of Irish do not integrate in host countries, instead setting up own GAA clubs, drinking in Irish pubs etc.. so fair is fair, just like people coming here should respect our values, we too should do the same.

Well, undocumented = illegal, so no difference there. Of course Irish people are quite free to lobby the US for a liberal immigration regime for Irish applicants as Nigeria is quite free to lobby Ireland for whatever immigration policy they wish to advance. But, ultimately the power and the right to determine immigration policy rests with the host country. It is wrong to circumvent this by illegal means and gives immigrants a bad rep.

Angelique

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, let me try. Mass immigration could be many things defined by number or proportion or ratio or what ever. Perhaps we should talk about unwarranted immigration instead. How about this for size? Did you know more Nigerians seek asylum in Ireland than in any other country? Don’t believe me? The UNHCR helpfully publishes annual summary statistics showing number of asylum seekers from every country to every other country. http://www.unhcr.org/statistics/STATISTICS/464478a72.html And, unbelievably, we get more Nigerians than any other nation on earth. For example, in 2000, out of 8800 Nigerian asylum seekers worldwide, 3400 fetched up in Ireland. Since the citizenship and direct provision reforms, the numbers have fallen to about 1200 in 2005 but this is still 12% of all Nigerian applicants and still more than any other country on the planet. Now the really odd thing is that asylum seekers are supposed to apply for asylum in the very first safe country they arrive in after leaving their home country. Here’s the bit I don’t understand – how do you get from Nigeria to Ireland without passing through any safe country en route? In attempting to answer this question bear in mind there are NO scheduled direct air links between Nigeria and Ireland. And yet the bleeding hearts still can't see anything wrong with this level of disproportionality. Do you not even have the tiniest little suspicion than something might be amiss?

It is as plain as a pikestaff – we are being taken for a ride.:mad: :mad:

I agree with you here. All the Africans living in my area, and there are a good few of them believe me, are all Nigerians.

Every week I see more and more of them settling in the town. Where on earth are they coming from?

OPENROAD

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, undocumented = illegal, so no difference there. Of course Irish people are quite free to lobby the US for a liberal immigration regime for Irish applicants as Nigeria is quite free to lobby Ireland for whatever immigration policy they wish to advance. But, ultimately the power and the right to determine immigration policy rests with the host country. It is wrong to circumvent this by illegal means and gives immigrants a bad rep.

yup but imo rather hypocritical of people who want the US to allow illegal Irish to remain in US and want illegals here to be kicked out, imo both should be deported. Also I expect Irish who go abroad to integrate fully in the host country they find themselves in, irrespective of which country that is.