Rejecting some myths about Immigrants

OPENROAD

Angelique wrote:

I agree with you here. All the Africans living in my area, and there are a good few of them believe me, are all Nigerians.

Every week I see more and more of them settling in the town. Where on earth are they coming from?

As a matter of Interest, what part of the EU are you originally from?

Angelique

OPENROAD wrote:

As a matter of Interest, what part of the EU are you originally from?

Malta

oscarBravo

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, let me try. Mass immigration could be many things defined by number or proportion or ratio or what ever. Perhaps we should talk about unwarranted immigration instead.

Interesting tactic: define something by talking about something completely different. Perhaps you should look up "define" in a dictionary.

(Recursive humour intentional, thankyouverymuch, I'm here all week.)

Angelique wrote:

Surely I do not have to define third world mass immigration to you. It is happening all over Europe, and it is certainly happening in Ireland.

Just take a look around you.

/takes a look around

Nope, no mass immigration happening here. Try harder.

Angelique wrote:

All the Africans living in my area, and there are a good few of them believe me, are all Nigerians.

How do you know?

Angelique

I know thats all I can say. I dont want to be lynched alive or something. I get enough agro from these people as it is.

InFront

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, let me try. Mass immigration could be many things defined by number or proportion or ratio or what ever. Perhaps we should talk about unwarranted immigration instead. How about this for size? Did you know more Nigerians seek asylum in Ireland than in any other country? :

Apart from making a reasonably interesting statement about how Ireland has become to Nigeria what Boston was to the Irish (relatively speaking I suppose), you haven't really said anything interesting about a possible problem. ireland takes its fair share of Nigerians. So what? British cities like London and Birmingham once took lots and lots of Irish and Indians, was that immigration "unwarranted" because of its volume?

Do you think people emigrate for fun? For social welfare?

For example, in 2000, out of 8800 Nigerian asylum seekers worldwide, 3400 fetched up in Ireland.

This does allude to a problem, and that was an old problem of Ireland's asylum legislation being open to abuse by some immigrants.
But again, simply pointing out that Nigeria has a lot of asylum seekers doesn't mean that they're scamming the Irish Government. It simply means that Nigeria is quite a messed ip place, I doubt anyone is disputing that.

Anyway, as you did point out yourself, asylum has declined rapidly since the new legislation, so I'm not sure what your problem with the asylum process is at the minute?

Zambia

Ireland does business with Nigeria , yet we accept asylums seekers from there claming some goverment bloke wants there head or something.

By admitting asylums seekers we are stating that the goverment in nigeria is going to kill this poor fella.

So why are we dealing with a goverment like that??

InFront

Is there any country that Ireland refuses point blank to do business with? I doubt it.

If there is not, ought we refuse point blank any asylum applications whatsoever, get rid of the asylum process, disregard the Geneva convention?

Also, bear in mind that Ireland is one of the most centralised countries in Europe, and that not all countries, EU or otherwise, share such a system of central Government. In Nigeria, not only is this not the case, the country is divided by many religious and cultural and ethnic identities which causes serious division and unrest among its national population, and among regional Government.
This can occur to such an extent that there are Nigerians born in Nigeria, living in Nigeria who are not considered - by the Government - as Nigerians. They are stateless in their own country.

The human rights record is improving there, and that's possibly also related to why Ireland is receiving far fewer applications these days.

PhonyDoctor

dochasach wrote:

Myth #1: .....

Respectfully, coming from a country that is overwhelmed with legal and illegal immigrants so much that English is now a second language in Washington DC, I think that there are a few major questions you need to ask yourself.

FYI, I have no problem whatsoever with legal immigration.

Question #1: Are the immigrants adapting to Irish culture, or does it appear that immigration will lead to Ireland becoming something foreign.

Question #2: What is the strain on your resources, e.g., healthcare.

Question #3: Are these immigrats a drain or a benefit at the end of the day. For example, it is well documented that each illeal immigrant without a high-school diploma will cost the US taxpayer over 1.2 million dollars (US) over ther course of his life. Obviously, as are 85% of Americans, I oppose illegal immigration and want our borders secured. I only wish our politicians did, but it appears that both our major parties could care less.

OPENROAD

PhonyDoctor wrote:

Respectfully, coming from a country that is overwhelmed with legal and illegal immigrants so much that English is now a second language in Washington DC, I think that there are a few major questions you need to ask yourself.

FYI, I have no problem whatsoever with legal immigration.

Question #1: Are the immigrants adapting to Irish culture, or does it appear that immigration will lead to Ireland becoming something foreign.

Do we adapt to the local culture when we go abroad?

OPENROAD

Angelique wrote:

I know thats all I can say. I dont want to be lynched alive or something. I get enough agro from these people as it is.

You obviously have issues with Nigerians?

PhonyDoctor

OPENROAD wrote:

PhonyDoctor wrote:

Do we adapt to the local culture when we go abroad?

To some extent, of course. Certainly if I moved to Paris I would work to speak perfect French and try to adhere to the local customs that dictated civility.

I guess what irks me is people who come to the US, UK, France, Sweden or whever to escape the murderous dysfunctional culture of their birth, then demand that their adopted homelands embrace the same dysfunctional characteristics that led them to flee in the first place.

Take all the protests in the US by illegal immigrants. They cant seem to protest the Mexican government for reforms, but they demand that we bend to their will.

OPENROAD

PhonyDoctor wrote:

OPENROAD wrote:

To some extent, of course. Certainly if I moved to Paris I would work to speak perfect French and try to adhere to the local customs that dictated civility.

I guess what irks me is people who come to the US, UK, France, Sweden or whever to escape the murderous dysfunctional culture of their birth, then demand that their adopted homelands embrace the same dysfunctional characteristics that led them to flee in the first place.

Take all the protests in the US by illegal immigrants. They cant seem to protest the Mexican government for reforms, but they demand that we bend to their will.

But most immigrants do, certainly using your criteria, i.e, Language and respecting the laws of the country? So in terms of intergration are we talking about language and respecting the law only? what else?

wes

PhonyDoctor wrote:

Take all the protests in the US by illegal immigrants. They cant seem to protest the Mexican government for reforms, but they demand that we bend to their will.

Maybe if your US government punished the people who give them jobs they wouldn't go to the US in the first place. No jobs = no illegals, but of course these companies get off very easy and everyone blames the problems on the illegals immigrants alone. So perhaps some condemnation of companies taking advantage of poor people and pay them a pittances and are a huge part of the problem in the US.

Of course if they did this then these companies may have to pay actual American's a decent wage to do these jobs.

Its just another case of follow the money. A lot of people benefit from the cheap labor illegals immigrants provide in the US.

As for the Irish situation. Well a lot of people seem to think our system is falling apart at the seams. I am not sure if the reality is quite up to peoples perceptions. Certainly we should have a sensible policy that benefits the country as well as the migrant. No good having people come here if there are no jobs for them.

As for illegals, they should be sent on there way.

Angelique

OPENROAD wrote:

You obviously have issues with Nigerians?

Not issues per se. Let us say I have to deal with a good number of them on a daily basis in an atmosphere where they are a majority. There attitude is scary to say the least.

Angelique

PhonyDoctor wrote:

OPENROAD wrote:

To some extent, of course. Certainly if I moved to Paris I would work to speak perfect French and try to adhere to the local customs that dictated civility.

I guess what irks me is people who come to the US, UK, France, Sweden or whever to escape the murderous dysfunctional culture of their birth, then demand that their adopted homelands embrace the same dysfunctional characteristics that led them to flee in the first place.

Take all the protests in the US by illegal immigrants. They cant seem to protest the Mexican government for reforms, but they demand that we bend to their will.

Success for any immigrant here in Ireland is dependent on complete integration into society.

Unfortunately many immigrants who are coming here in their thousands are very often herding together trying to recreate their country's life and mores in an alien culture.

They have not yet discovered the truth of the ages-old recipe for successful survival: when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

The saying is supposed to be a contraction of some advice given to (Saint) Augustine by (Saint) Ambrose: “Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi” (when you are in Rome, live the Roman way; when you are elsewhere, live as they do there.”

darkman2

Ive concerns regarding this whole 'integration' thing. No country in the world has successfully done this. How is Ireland different exactly?

OPENROAD

Angelique wrote:

PhonyDoctor wrote:

Success for any immigrant here in Ireland is dependent on complete integration into society.

Unfortunately many immigrants who are coming here in their thousands are very often herding together trying to recreate their country's life and mores in an alien culture.

They have not yet discovered the truth of the ages-old recipe for successful survival: when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

The saying is supposed to be a contraction of some advice given to (Saint) Augustine by (Saint) Ambrose: “Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi” (when you are in Rome, live the Roman way; when you are elsewhere, live as they do there.”

Bit like us Irish then,(I will exclude myself though) go to parts of London and you will see Irish flags flying from peoples bedroom windows, Irish pubs where they show gaa matches on weekends,and when the English national team are playing,they will abuse the players while drinking pints of Guiness, before going onto the local Irish club. This scene is repeated in many parts of the US, so if we Irish do not integrate fully when abroad, we can hardly expect people to do the same here.

I really want to know what people mean by integration? How far should people be expected to integrate?

Zambia

I think integration means they come over in small enough numbers as to not make a difference to the overall look and feel of the country.

OPENROAD

Zambia232 wrote:

I think integration means they come over in small enough numbers as to not make a difference to the overall look and feel of the country.

So the opposite of Finsbury Park and Kilburn then??

Angelique

OPENROAD wrote:

Angelique wrote:

Bit like us Irish then,(I will exclude myself though) go to parts of London and you will see Irish flags flying from peoples bedroom windows, Irish pubs where they show gaa matches on weekends,and when the English national team are playing,they will abuse the players while drinking pints of Guiness, before going onto the local Irish club. This scene is repeated in many parts of the US, so if we Irish do not integrate fully when abroad, we can hardly expect people to do the same here.

I really want to know what people mean by integration? How far should people be expected to integrate?

When people choose to emigrate to any country and make it their home, they should accept the values and respect the rights of the citizens of that country.

No one is expecting them to give up all forms of their culture or identity, but like it or not some of it must go in order to adopt the culture of the new country.

We talk about multiculturalism, this is a bit of an oxy moron, we can either have one dominant culture, made up of many races to form a single identity, or dozens of small exclusive communities all with different religions, values, culture, language and idenity.

Migrants MUST accept Irish Culture and identify themselves, first and formost as Irish, not as a ???.. living in Ireland.

This only breeds indifference, and an identity crisis for the next generation, just look at how many people today, born and raised in neighbouring Britian, still see themselves as ???. first and have little affilation with the English community, or identity.

Migration is give and take, on both sides, but for many who choose not to change or assimilate, I ask why live in Ireland if you live the same way as in your old country?

PhonyDoctor

wes wrote:

Maybe if your US government punished the people who give them jobs they wouldn't go to the US in the first place. No jobs = no illegals, but of course these companies get off very easy and everyone blames the problems on the illegals immigrants alone.

I fully appreciate your opinion, and indeed I share it. Both political parties are guilty, but to be fair that's not a response that goes to my issue.

So perhaps some condemnation of companies taking advantage of poor people and pay them a pittances and are a huge part of the problem in the US.

Take my word, what they get here is a fortune in their own countries, but that being said I do agree with you.

Of course if they did this then these companies may have to pay actual American's a decent wage to do these jobs.

The terrible thing about this is that the Democrat party, which claims to be the champion of the people of whom you refer, i.e., the people whose wages are affected most by illegal immigration, are the bigger part of the problem.

It is the reason I left the Dem party years ago.

Its just another case of follow the money. A lot of people benefit from the cheap labor illegals immigrants provide in the US.

but to the detriment of most Americans. It is shameful, and I wish that I could disagree with you, but you are right.

As for the Irish situation. Well a lot of people seem to think our system is falling apart at the seams. I am not sure if the reality is quite up to peoples perceptions. Certainly we should have a sensible policy that benefits the country as well as the migrant. No good having people come here if there are no jobs for them.

As for illegals, they should be sent on there way.

We seem to agree 100% on every issue.

OPENROAD

[This only breeds indifference, and an identity crisis for the next generation, just look at how many people today, born and raised in neighbouring Britian, still see themselves as ???. first and have little affilation with the English community, or identity.

and the Irish are at the top of the list.

Angelique

OPENROAD wrote:

[This only breeds indifference, and an identity crisis for the next generation, just look at how many people today, born and raised in neighbouring Britian, still see themselves as ???. first and have little affilation with the English community, or identity.

and the Irish are at the top of the list.

So what are you suggesting?

Should we close our eyes and give up on trying to assimilate immigrants coming in just because some of the Irish people living over in Britian failed to assimilate?

OPENROAD

Angelique wrote:

So what are you suggesting?

Should we close our eyes and give up on trying to assimilate immigrants coming in just because some of the Irish people living over in Britian failed to assimilate?

Don't take me up wrong, I actually agree with some of your points, it is essential that immigrants do integrate into our society by learning the language and respecting the laws, but beyond that, what do we expect? All I am trying to do is point out how hypocritical a large chunk of us Irish actually are. I would say that most Irish abroad would see themselves as Irish first, and looking at England, they certainly would not see themselves as English, and even if they have kids, they tend to bring them up as Irish. So although I agree with what you are suggesting, we Irish have on the whole never fully integrated when abroad but we expect foreigners to integrate fully here.
I think this will sum up the mentality here, was listening to a show on the radio where they interviewed Irish people who had left the country years ago and gone to England cause there own country could not provide them with work and they were asked would they return home now, none said they would as the country had changed so much with the foreigners here now -priceless you could not make it up

InFront

Angelique wrote:

Migrants MUST accept Irish Culture - or a nationality - and identify themselves, first and formost as Irish, not as a ???.. living in Ireland.

Ridiculous. Forcing someone to accept a culture or call themselves Irish is a guarantee that they will struggle against you and dig their heels in on their own terms.

Apart from the fact that it's unclear how they should be 'forced' to accept the culture, or what exactly Irish culture entails, I think this notion of monocultutralism and forced assimilation is a copmpletely unworkable, and a disastrous idea from beginning to end.

What is so important about identifying yourself as Irish?

I ask why live in Ireland if you live the same way as in your old country?

Few people live the same as they did in their old country - they might be employed here, have a better quality of life, have more educational opportunity, whatever.
But if you mean speaking the native language, wearing traditional clothing or staying friends with their fellow countrymen (and women) coulde you expand upon your problem with that?

There is no cultural contract with immigration - nor should there be. If the Government are happy to allow entry to an individual for work or for study, you can be sure they are not doing so out of charity or love for foreigners - the incentive is almost always an economic one on their behalf.

If people must talk is terms of parasitism, and someone always does when it comes to immigration, then it must be realised that the "parasitic" relationship is a symbiotic one - both the immigrant and the state have something to gain from immigration.
Cultural observance just doesn't come into it. Acting Irish doesn't come into it. And I fail to see how it could even conceivably be "policed".

wes

PhonyDoctor wrote:

I fully appreciate your opinion, and indeed I share it. Both political parties are guilty, but to be fair that's not a response that goes to my issue.

Take my word, what they get here is a fortune in their own countries, but that being said I do agree with you.

The terrible thing about this is that the Democrat party, which claims to be the champion of the people of whom you refer, i.e., the people whose wages are affected most by illegal immigration, are the bigger part of the problem.

It is the reason I left the Dem party years ago.

but to the detriment of most Americans. It is shameful, and I wish that I could disagree with you, but you are right.

We seem to agree 100% on every issue.

Grand to see you aren't just blaming the immigrant. Just taught it should be pointed out. There are people who make money of this whole mess, to the detriment of everyone else involved.

bonkey

Angelique wrote:

In the last couple of years there has been mass immigration from Africa and other third world countries into Ireland. What is going on?

Angelique wrote:

I agree with you here. All the Africans living in my area, and there are a good few of them believe me, are all Nigerians.

So which is it you have a problem with...Africans, or Nigerians?

Where on earth are they coming from?

I'm gonna take a wild guess on this one and say Nigeria.

Angelique

InFront wrote:

Ridiculous. Forcing someone to accept a culture or call themselves Irish is a guarantee that they will struggle against you and dig their heels in on their own terms.

Apart from the fact that it's unclear how they should be 'forced' to accept the culture, or what exactly Irish culture entails, I think this notion of monocultutralism and forced assimilation is a copmpletely unworkable, and a disastrous idea from beginning to end.

So far, multiculturalism all over Europe has succeeded in attenuating our own Western culture’s particularities and identity, in order to make us more tolerant of sharing our living space with other cultures. This is a recipe for disaster.

Take the Muslims in Britian living the multicultural experiment. They struggle against the country they were born and bred in, they dig their heels in on their own terms and aspire to be ruled under Sharia Law.

InFront wrote:

What is so important about identifying yourself as Irish?

Being Irish is being of the European/Western mindset. This is the way I see it. Immigrants who plan to live here all their lives and rear their children in this country should assimilate if they want to be indeed successful.

bonkey

Angelique wrote:

So far, multiculturalism all over Europe has succeeded in attenuating our own Western culture’s particularities and identity, in order to make us more tolerant of sharing our living space with other cultures. This is a recipe for disaster.

Take the Muslims in Britian living the multicultural experiment.

No. Take the Tamils living in Swtizerland.

They struggle against the country they were born and bred in, they dig their heels in on their own terms and aspire to be ruled under Sharia Law.

The Tamils in Swizerland, on the other hand, are only partially integrated but still seen as a welcome addition to the cultural mix. They are well-respected and not treated as members of some foreign culture. Sure...they weren't accepted immediately when they started flooding into the country, but its a two-way street. They've gotten used to Switzerland, and integrated somewhat (but only somewhat), and the Swiss have gotten used to seeing them around the place, and discovered that - unsurprisingly - they're just people like the rest of us.

Maybe there's a correlation between not accepting cultures and finding that those cultures struggle against that which hasn't accepted them. Strange thought, I know, but it always struck me that "problematic" non-integration always seems to go hand in hand with non-acceptance. I'm just not convinced that the non-acceptance is a result and not a cause.

Immigrants who plan to live here all their lives and rear their children in this country should assimilate if they want to be indeed successful.

So...you don't think we should accept them if they don't integrate?

Maybe if you accepted them, they'd integrate faster.

Again...I look at the Tamils. Living their lives, rearing their kids. Naturalising. Holding on to their culture. Getting on in life, and yes...even being successful. I don't see a problem.

wes

Angelique wrote:

Take the Muslims in Britian living the multicultural experiment. They struggle against the country they were born and bred in, they dig their heels in on their own terms and aspire to be ruled under Sharia Law.

A lot of there trouble has to do with the UK's dodgey foreign policy as much as the Muslims themselves. Both went hand in hand in creating the situation. Also the MCB (who demanded Sharia) is representative of no one but themselves. Read up on the people who run it and then read up and there other dozen or so Muslim organizations who disagree with them. I am not saying there aren't problems, but that it is not cut and dry like your trying to say here. Illegal invasions that destroy a country due to the occupier stupidity tend to add to existing problems and cause things to get far far worse.