Irish Overseas - Postal Vote

irishsurfer

Just wondering.
How many Irish Passport holders, Irish Born or- I guess most important- how many people on the electoral register on here are overseas and would like a postal vote?

I feel that as a citizen, overseas for work, I should have a postal vote.

Why, through no real fault of my own am I excluded when convicted molesters in jail get the vote?

ejmaztec

I think that this suggestion has been put for decades and that any government would be too s***-scared to do bring it into law. The emigrants who were forced to leave as there was no work would have to lay the blame for their plight on their local TDs and the government in power for ineffectual job creation over the years. I think that, had the idea been made law thirty or forty years ago, this place would now be a communist dictatorship, initially voted in by the absentees to spite those who did the dirty on them back home.

irishsurfer

Well, I think its time to change then.

The election register is 'pruned' on occasion - so people who are not habitually resident or have moved away or are dead get dropped from the list.

Those who are habitually resident but for work are stationed out of the state for long periods- e.g. Merchant Navy, Long Distance Drivers, Long term overseas contracts, Oil workers etc - who still file tax returns etc should have a vote.

It really pisses me off that a man who, in the same constituancy as me - about 15/20 miles away - who habitually over a long term raped a child, he gets a vote.
A guy who murdered a girl in Carraroe in a brutal way - he gets to vote in my constiuancy:mad:

They are in jail, do not pay tax, do not in any way contribute to society

They can vote, I cant.

Embassy staff, UN, Garda overseas, Army overseas, EU staff -
They can all-rightly- vote - I can't???

Why cant regular non-public service citizens vote

In the UK - postal votes are normal.
The French and the Americans go to their embassies.

And they talk about voter apathy - when it is impossible to vote while being on contract in Holland

If they dont allow (and in fairness its a small number) people overseas to vote out of fear they might not agree with the government - well, its not democratic - and its not fair.

Lennoxschips

Why cant regular non-public service citizens vote

because they don't vote fianna fail

blorg

irishsurfer wrote:

If they dont allow (and in fairness its a small number) people overseas to vote out of fear they might not agree with the government - well, its not democratic - and its not fair.

I think that's part of the problem - it's not such a small number. The number of people living abroad entitled to an Irish passport would be in excess of the actual population living here.

The_Minister

Sinn Fein get most of their money from the Irish in America.
I would not like to see a majority SF Dail.

dave2pvd

The_Minister wrote:

Sinn Fein get most of their money from the Irish in America.
I would not like to see a majority SF Dail.

There may be a shift away from this trend (Irish immigrants to US voting SF). I'd say that most Irish immigrants who arrived during the last 10-15 wouldn't be voting SF. A lot of the 50s and 60s immigrants may have passed onwards and upwards (with luck!). 70's and 80's folks I can't comment on too much - the only 80's imports I have known have gone back home.

Lennoxschips

Sinn Fein get most of their money from the Irish in America.
I would not like to see a majority SF Dail.

Sinn Fein do a lot of fundraising amongst Irish-American communities and Irish-American businessmen. These people are U.S. citizens with vaguely Irish links at best, and are not Irish citizens. Once again, there is a difference between "Irish diaspora" and "Irish citizens."

Personally I think there should be an overseas constituency of about four Dail seats. But there's been a whole thread on this already.

blorg

I think you might be surprised at the number of people who are entitled to Irish citizenship. Irish-born grandparent and you're in. It certainly dwarfs the local population.

There are also more than one or two Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland, you know.

irishsurfer

No, just to be clear.

I dont believe that every one with an Irish passport should have a vote.

That would be impossible - there are 30,000,000 valid irish passports in circulation.

But I am still normally resident in Ireland - I do believe that a citizen, who is on the register, who is issued with a ballot paper, who is on contract longterm overseas should be entitled to a postal vote.

I just want to point out that a man who habitually raped his own children gets the vote. One of the children asked my sister and my cousin, to help them bring in the authorities and they approached Childline, who helped and must be applauded for that, and that resulted in a conviction.

That man - who is now in prison for that crime, who came from my constituancy, who had a TD - Mr Bobby Maloy - write a letter to a judge for him for clemancy- he gets a vote.

And I dont - and Im on the register - I contribute to Irish society as best I can - I file my tax return.
I dont cost the tax payer money sitting in Mountjoy

And that has to change

Lennoxschips

blorg wrote:

I think you might be surprised at the number of people who are entitled to Irish citizenship. Irish-born grandparent and you're in. It certainly dwarfs the local population.

There is a difference between being entitled to Irish citizenship and actually having Irish citizenship.

If you are worried about millions of 70 and 80 years olds in the USA suddenly applying for Irish passports then you should take issue with Irish citizenship rules. But that's a whole different debate.

Lennoxschips

I dont believe that every one with an Irish passport should have a vote.

That would be impossible - there are 30,000,000 valid irish passports in circulation.

Where did you get that figure? There are approx 7 million Irish citizens worldwide (including the ones living in Ireland), not 30,000,000.

Once again, my particular proposal is to give the 3 million Irish overseas a Dail constituency of four or five TDs. That would amount to 1 TD per 750,000 overseas Irish citizens (in the case of four TDs), compared to roughly 1 TD per 25,000 in the case of resident Irish citizens. So overseas citizens would have some say in what goes on, but only 1/30th of the say that a resident citizen does. Seems fair enough to me.

irishsurfer

Sorry, my mistake- but going on 7m citizens, with about 4 on the Island, thats still 3 overseas.

irishsurfer

Looking at another post -
Judge lets rapist walk free, again -

Either in or out that prick has more voting rights than Me

blorg

irishsurfer wrote:

Looking at another post -
Judge lets rapist walk free, again -

Either in or out that prick has more voting rights than Me

There is merit in your argument calling for some form of postal vote for people normally Irish resident who are temporarily resident outside the country, makes a lot of sense.

But you seem obsessed to a very peculiar degree with this idea of "the voting rapist." Whether criminals should have a vote or not (as in the US) is another matter that is worthy of disucssion but I don't think it helps your case to link the two.

"Irish overseas should have the vote - because rapists do." I presume you advance this because Irish overseas are "better" than rapists? But if so, surely there are other groups that are similarly "better" - hard-working resident non-citizens, perhaps. It's a strange argument to me, I don't quite get the connection.

irishsurfer

To me the fact that someone who commits a major crime and is a burden on the state has a right to vote, and the state bending over backwards to facilitate this - and that Im told to bugger off and stop bothering the registrar pisses me off.

I use the example of this to show how messed up the system is.

And it does bother me that people like Adam Keane, Patrick Naughton and John McDonagh have a vote, and have a say in the running of the State and I dont.

I feel very aggrieved.

Its just wrong.

robinph

irishsurfer wrote:

And it does bother me that people like Adam Keane, Patrick Naughton and John McDonagh have a vote, and have a say in the running of the State and I dont.

They are permanently resident in the state though, you are not.

irishsurfer

I'm overseas for work, long term, I am Domicile but Non Resident, I contribute to the state.

Zambia

As an Irish citizen Ireland is your home soil and you are entitled to live there by that right you should be entitled to have a say in who runs the show.

robinph

Zambia232 wrote:

As an Irish citizen Ireland is your home soil and you are entitled to live there by that right you should be entitled to have a say in who runs the show.

But in which constiuency though seeing as you are not actually resident?

Referendums and presidential votes it would not be an issue for though, but for the upcoming election it is dependant on where you are actually living within the country as to who you get to vote for though.

irishsurfer

Galway West is my local constituancy

Gandhi

irishsurfer wrote:

I'm overseas for work, long term, I am Domicile but Non Resident, I contribute to the state.

What exactly does "Domicile" mean? Do you seriously have to pay taxes to Bertie + Co. despite living in NL? If so, you should get to vote, or you are getting seriously ripped off. He who pays the piper gets to call the tune, etc.

I live in the US and I do not feel that I should get the right to vote in Irish elections. I neither have to obey the laws nor pay the taxes.

By the way, there is another discussion on this in Region->Abroad->Abroad, dominated by views from the "other side of the fence", as you would expect.

Manic Moran

I could vote in US elections from Iraq by mail. In fact, my precinct here in San Jose has so few registered voters in it that it's not deemed worth setting up a polling station, so I have to vote by postal vote even when at home. Nothing hard about the concept.

What have diplomats and soldiers abroad been doing when there are elections in Ireland?
I'd think that the requirements for a postal vote should be pretty simple, and not solely based on a passport. So what if you have a passport? What's the address that you would want your postal ballot application form mailed to? (Not least also figure out what district you're in) Oh, you live in the US and don't have an address to send the application to in Ireland? Sorry... can't play.

NTM

axer

I don't think those that are long term overseas should get a vote but those who are temporarily or shortterm overseas should (< 4/5 years i.e. the term of a government). The voting overseas should definitely only happen at Irish Embassys and not via the post. Also that argument about the Irish abroad having 4/5 TDs is rubbish. Most people who live longterm abroad are entitled to vote wherever they are and for people who will make a difference for them there. I can't see how their vote in Ireland will directly effect them the same as if they were resident in the state.

I am in Germany temporarily and spend about half of the year in Germany each year. Thankfully I will be home for the May 24th elections but if it just so happened that I was coming home that day. If I hadn't been coming home then I should be allowed to vote via the Irish Embassy in Berlin because I am normally resident in Ireland.

irishsurfer

There are provisions for a postal vote for Soldiers, Diplomats and EU staff.

Domicile but non resident means that I am of Ireland but spend more than 183 days a year overseas per annum.

I am in favor of extending the postal vote overseas

axer

irishsurfer wrote:

There are provisions for a postal vote for Soldiers, Diplomats and EU staff.

They are different as it is easy to keep track of them thus it is (relatively) easy to get postal vote cards to them. Those who are not Soldiers, Diplomats nor EU staff couldn't vote by post. They would have to do it via Irish Embassys.

robinph

irishsurfer wrote:

Domicile but non resident means that I am of Ireland but spend more than 183 days a year overseas per annum.

I thought you said that you were paying Irish tax though, which if your away for that long each year you shouldn't have to.

irishsurfer

I am exempted from income tax.
I pay PRSI on a volantary basis, even though until I become resident it is of no use to me.
It may seem a token, but it is important to me.
I file a return each and every year.
This keeps me within the Irish system.

I regard myself as Irish - never lived or worked anywhere else long enough to regard myself as being anything else.
What I would call my political representation is all Irish.
The things I care about are Irish, and local Connemara issues.

Re: Embassy voting
The majority of citizens overseas like myself are there for work. Most would not be able to get to an Irish embassy.

Post is the only pragmatic system unless you are allowed to nominate someone to vote for you. That involves an extra person, so it gets complex.

The UK has a post vote system - as does Ireland to a limited extent.

The vote is sent to the registrars office where it is opened by two returning officers.
They check for tampering.
This vote is then tallied.

Lennoxschips

axer wrote:

They are different as it is easy to keep track of them thus it is (relatively) easy to get postal vote cards to them. Those who are not Soldiers, Diplomats nor EU staff couldn't vote by post. They would have to do it via Irish Embassys.

So Irish people living in Anchorage would have to fly to Washington D.C. to vote??

irishsurfer

hence the practicality of a post in ballot

alcon

irishsurfer wrote:

There are provisions for a postal vote for Soldiers, Diplomats and EU staff.
.
.
.
I am in favor of extending the postal vote overseas

I'm curious as to where you got this information. I've been campaigning for years regarding emmigrant voting rights, but so far I think I only ever had 2 or 3 favourable replies from any politician.

However, I am EU Staff. I work in Brussels. I am fiscally resident in Ireland. Although I live here, I am only on the alien residence list, and am not considered fully resident.

I've never heard of provision made for EU Staff. Have you a reference for this, or is it only rumour and hearsay?

I'd be *very* interested.