the definitive disproof of the free will argument as theodicy

skeptic griggsy

Were we more in imago Dei, we would have free will,yet disinclined to commit wrong doing.It is mere special pleading to argue otherwise.It would only take a little wrong doing to contrast with the good anyway. John Hicks makes a straw man out his all or nothing argument that we naturalists demand paradise here on Earth,but we hurl back at anaturalists that it is they who assert paradise for Heaven, we taking them at their word.We also hurl back at them that we would be robots as they so strenuously argue were we thus constituted as they would assure us that God is not the Supreme Robot.They want to have it both ways! A loving god would have put us in a safe place in the first place.[Yahweh did, but he irrationally drove the first pair out of Eden when they should have had a notion of right and wrong in the first place! ]Theodicy is just one dodge after another to absolve God of respnsibility for evil. Religion is indeed mythinformation as someone notes.:eek:

Dades

This comes across as you just thinking out loud.

If you want a specific point addressed, you will need to post a specific question. Also, one thread at a time, and some formatting would be preferable.

stevejazzx

skeptic griggsy wrote:

Were we more in imago Dei, we would have free will,yet disinclined to commit wrong doing.It is mere special pleading to argue otherwise.It would only take a little wrong doing to contrast with the good anyway. John Hicks makes a straw man out his all or nothing argument that we naturalists demand paradise here on Earth,but we hurl back at anaturalists that it is they who assert paradise for Heaven, we taking them at their word.We also hurl back at them that we would be robots as they so strenuously argue were we thus constituted as they would assure us that God is not the Supreme Robot.They want to have it both ways! A loving god would have put us in a safe place in the first place.[Yahweh did, but he irrationally drove the first pair out of Eden when they should have had a notion of right and wrong in the first place! ]Theodicy is just one dodge after another to absolve God of respnsibility for evil. Religion is indeed mythinformation as someone notes.:eek:

I think we've found the atheist equivalent of JC.
OP can you express your point a tad more succintly please. As Athiest says you appear half crazed fron the above ramblings, well I say that but Atheist was thinking it.
Actually from the amount of threads you've started and the unending referneces to famous Theologians I suspected that you were actually Schuart gone mad, but then his posts make sense. Although he does seem keen to outpost those pagans so perhaps.....

PDN

skeptic griggsy wrote:

Religion is indeed mythinformation as someone notes.:eek:

Mythinformation. Is that a weight loss plan as in my-thin-formation?

Scofflaw

PDN wrote:

Mythinformation. Is that a weight loss plan as in my-thin-formation?

Keyboard LISP?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins

Hi skeptic griggsy,
Yeah I would agree with other posters. Try to a bit clearer so other people can respond. I didn't understand anything there.
Regards

Schuhart

stevejazzx wrote:

Although he does seem keen to outpost those pagans so perhaps.....

Its not me, and my plan to take over the world by passing out the number of threads on the Paganism forum has been achieved so I've no pressing need to spam up a few threads.

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

Its not me, and my plan to take over the world by passing out the number of threads on the Paganism forum has been achieved so I've no pressing need to spam up a few threads.

There's still more posts on the Christianity forum, although now that some of the Christian posters have come over here to argue I see the Christianity forum is a lot slower-moving...I suspect we're responsible for a lot of the posts there, quite aside from the Creationism thread...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

Scofflaw wrote:

I suspect we're responsible for a lot of the posts there, quite aside from the Creationism thread...

Indeed, as it was effectively the general religion forum in addition to being the Christianity forum.

But with our wise and witty posts and boyish good looks, there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't overtake that forum and become the undisputed top dog religion forum. That will be a signal for Pope Benedict to cast aside his disguise, reveal himself as the Arch Secularist and lead us on an aggressive campaign to force our corrupting philosophies on the rest of the globe.*

*This is just an experiment to see if adding a wild prophecy into the atheist mix does anything to encourage converts.

Fanny Cradock

skeptic griggsy wrote:

Were we more in imago Dei, we would have free will,yet disinclined to commit wrong doing.It is mere special pleading to argue otherwise.It would only take a little wrong doing to contrast with the good anyway. John Hicks makes a straw man out his all or nothing argument that we naturalists demand paradise here on Earth,but we hurl back at anaturalists that it is they who assert paradise for Heaven, we taking them at their word.We also hurl back at them that we would be robots as they so strenuously argue were we thus constituted as they would assure us that God is not the Supreme Robot.They want to have it both ways! A loving god would have put us in a safe place in the first place.[Yahweh did, but he irrationally drove the first pair out of Eden when they should have had a notion of right and wrong in the first place! ]Theodicy is just one dodge after another to absolve God of respnsibility for evil. Religion is indeed mythinformation as someone notes.:eek:

Wait, I'm confused about the movie. So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?

Sorry, but I just couldn't follow the point of your post at all

Tim Robbins

Scofflaw wrote:

There's still more posts on the Christianity forum, although now that some of the Christian posters have come over here to argue I see the Christianity forum is a lot slower-moving...I suspect we're responsible for a lot of the posts there, quite aside from the Creationism thread...

cordially,
Scofflaw

I reckon the Christians miss me Since I can't post in the Christianity forum following my ban, they are following me over here How path..... - doh

Dades

Multiple LOLs.
Well, at least this thread was good for something.

Will give the enigmatic OP a bit longer to respond before the inevitable closure.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Wait, I'm confused about the movie. So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?

Sorry, but I just couldn't follow the point of your post at all

ROFL

skeptic griggsy

Gee, if God is not the Supreme Robot, then without special pleading, we would not be robots had we free will and still not be inclined to do wrong. [It is as simple as that moderator.I am used to Antony Flew so I wrote like him. On other forums, others find me hard to read,yet still others respond yea or nay.Please reopen the two category thread. There I wanted to add that apparent design is the effect of "reproduction, survival and changes to the enviornment" as Douglas J. Futuyma notes.Natural selection ,though mindless,is the architect of that apparent design and needs no divine mind to guide it. Suspect reads quite well! The purpose of the threads is to show the basis for anti-theism.The two category shows that selection is a power of its own without need to invoke God to guide it. The ignostic and Occam show either God signifies nothing or else He is redundant. This one shows that the ever so praised free will defense in theodicy is silly. Might Suspect comment whether to open that thread! Thanks.

skeptic griggsy

If as John Hick alleges that there might be corresponding virtues in Heaven for our Earthly ones, why not here in the first place?[Check similar thread @ IIDB for responses to show that others do fathom me!] Why not Heaven on Earth in the first place withouot the tests-the unredeemable evils to overcome.This argument depends on theists proclaiming paradise for Heaven. We reallly would settle for a minimum amout of wrongdoing to contrast with the good.I got the notion for the argument from Fr.Meslier and Michael Martin's " Atheism,Meaning and Morality," page 32. [By the way I have to Google to get to this forum. Is it that my computer is at fault that I don't receive new messages? Thanks.]:)

Tim Robbins

skeptic griggsy wrote:

If as John Hick alleges that there might be corresponding virtues in Heaven for our Earthly ones, why not here in the first place?[Check similar thread @ IIDB for responses to show that others do fathom me!] Why not Heaven on Earth in the first place withouot the tests-the unredeemable evils to overcome.This argument depends on theists proclaiming paradise for Heaven. We reallly would settle for a minimum amout of wrongdoing to contrast with the good.I got the notion for the argument from Fr.Meslier and Michael Martin's " Atheism,Meaning and Morality," page 32. [By the way I have to Google to get to this forum. Is it that my computer is at fault that I don't receive new messages? Thanks.]:)

Everything makes sense now, thanks for that.

Dades

skeptic griggsy wrote:

Please reopen the two category thread

I've reopened it for you, now you've shown you're not a hit-and-run.

skeptic griggsy wrote:

By the way I have to Google to get to this forum. Is it that my computer is at fault that I don't receive new messages? Thanks.:)

This link will bring you straight to this forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

And this is the main Boards link:
http://www.boards.ie/

I presume you mean messages that your threads have been posted in? It should work if you subscribe to the thread and use a valid email.

Top-tip: you might get more responses if you used some spacing in your posts. You can actually use formatting to enhance your message.

skeptic griggsy

The Atheist, thank you very much! I most certainly will follow your advice. As one with Irish ties, I certainly want to post in the old sod! You have made my day. Bless you. skeptic griggsy lamberthml@ comcast.net

skeptic griggsy

Another problem the anaturalist has with the problem of evil is the one she has with the teleological argument, assuming what she has to demonstrate that there is God the designer who had us in mind rather than we are the mere products of naturalistic forces. I have just thought of this. To assume God as designer, one has to overcome the imperfections of the world. Now I daresay that anaturalists try to allay that problem in solving the problem of evil, but we naturalists find no real design and the imperfections are what one would expect in a world without God.:cool:

skeptic griggsy

The imperfections show exactly natural selection at work.They show exactly what one expects nature to be without divine input.[Check out Rational Responders to see the high quality of comments on my similar threads there,please! That is a find site for us naturalists/rationalists.] Theists just find rationalizations to exonerate their god from allowing evil and the imperfections thereby. [I came across another version of this argument today @Ebon Musings.] This argument shows that theists try to have it both ways: they want free will and no inclination to do wrong for God but not for humankind.They have no suffcient reason to overcome that,I think. We still would not be gods but would be free and not inclined to do wrong like Him.It is special pleading to exempt us from that status. [I have work to do to overcome cognitive defects.]Thanks, Asiaprod!

Dades

In case anyone missed this in the other threads:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53432079&postcount=46

skeptic griggsy

I came by this topic from Fr. Meslier in a journal and Michael Martin's " Atheism, Meaning and Morality,"p.32. There is a similar comment by someone else @ Ebon's Musings. If God is not a robot, neither would we be so had we free will and no inclination to do wrong. Theists put forth free will as a defense,but I see that as a mere dodge.We only need a little wrong anyway to compare with the good.But as they allege paradise in Heaven, I demand the same logic for us in paradise on Earth. Soul-making is no more justifiable than someone would pay us a millliON pounds if she could break our limbs. If as John Hick alleges there could be analogical virtues in Heaven, then there could be such here on Earth in the first place. Do the victims of the Holocaust get extra Brownie points? What is the point of animal suffering? Yes, theodicy is merely one dodge after another to exonerate God of allowing pointless evils!