The official Politics board general election poll-Which government do you want?

Elmo

I never said that, I said a FG/Labour/Green/wild card government would be very unstable and liable to collapse. That's not the same thing.

What have you based this on?

Just look at the cosy, FF/PD love in.

The PD's cann't exit a government when they understand that FF have far more power, if the PD's had left in Nov 2006 or at any time during the current Dail FF could and would get Indo support. While at the same time FF hold their support by letting them have way too much power. 2 mininster 2 junior minister with only 8 sitting TD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An FF/PD government is a one party government, with a smaller party unsure of what they should do in case the upset the big guys.

Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke are 2 very good reasons for these people not to have the support of the PDs (if the PD are so full in integrity).

brianthebard

How can you not see that the more parties with different ideologies you put into a coalition the less stable it will be? And what's this got to do with the PD's, I never mentioned them.

nesf

brianthebard wrote:

Um, that's what I said.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just giving my own thoughts on the matter which happen to coincide with your own to a large extent.


Elmo, surely you'd agree that a mix of FG (right wing economically, socially authoritarian) with the Socialist Party (left wing economically, socially liberal) would be fairly unstable? As is with FG/Lab/Green you have a coalition that runs from mildly liberal left to moderately authoritarian right which will be unstable enough but could work with a bit of luck and nothing too contentious coming up versus adding a hard left party in which would (bluntly) probably oppose most of FG's attitudes to business etc.

The present FF/PD coalition is two right wing economic parties (though they differ on social policy) and it is fairly stable. In my opinion if a coalition at least agrees in either economic or social policy then it'd probably be fairly stable on that front versus matching complete opposites (FG or FF and SP or SF) which would be inherently unstable. Labour are fairly centrist so a FG/Lab government or a FF/Lab government wouldn't be that far apart on policy issues.

brianthebard

nesf wrote:

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just giving my own thoughts on the matter which happen to coincide with your own to a large extent.

Oh right I just didn't understand why you quoted me.

Elmo, surely you'd agree that a mix of FG (right wing economically, socially authoritarian) with the Socialist Party (left wing economically, socially liberal) would be fairly unstable? As is with FG/Lab/Green you have a coalition that runs from mildly liberal left to moderately authoritarian right which will be unstable enough but could work with a bit of luck and nothing too contentious coming up versus adding a hard left party in which would (bluntly) probably oppose most of FG's attitudes to business etc.

I agree, I mean even labour would find it hard to work in government with the SP,they are quite far apart I think. FG and SP would be completely incompatible imo.

nesf

brianthebard wrote:

I agree, I mean even labour would find it hard to work in government with the SP,they are quite far apart I think. FG and SP would be completely incompatible imo.

Personally I think that Greens are cut-off point of coalition possibilities. Both large parties are fairly right wing economically and Sinn Fein and the Socialist/Workers Party are just far too left wing for it to work. Labour are (from their joint documents with FG anyway) slightly to the right of centre and would find it difficult to reconcile with either also.

The Greens are odd in that they (imho) are the only left wing party who'd stand a chance of being in Government, and even then you'd really couldn't describe them as being any more than centre-left tbh. The PDs are our only neo-liberal party and could (in theory policy wise) match up with either FG or FF but I doubt that a FG/PD coalition will happen any time soon. If they both found themselves in opposition for a long period of time though you might see them finding common ground which could be interesting.

Elmo

Elmo, surely you'd agree that a mix of FG (right wing economically, socially authoritarian) with the Socialist Party (left wing economically, socially liberal) would be fairly unstable? As is with FG/Lab/Green you have a coalition that runs from mildly liberal left to moderately authoritarian right which will be unstable enough but could work with a bit of luck and nothing too contentious coming up versus adding a hard left party in which would (bluntly) probably oppose most of FG's attitudes to business etc.

I cann't see SP being in government with any of the parties TBH. I don't think the FG/Lab are that desprate to make up the numbers. The Greens are a a centre party IMO.

I personally don't think that FF/PD are a great government, both FF and the PDs have opertunites to walk away from one another. FF keep the PDs happy by giving them as much power as possible, while the PDs fear that FF go with Indos and remove them from office. I think the PDs and FF have very different ideas and both have descide to shut up and put up.

The PDs are our only neo-liberal party

I don't like this term. PDs are Ultra-conservative.

FF do swing from right to left. Bertie is a Socialist don't you know.

FG/PD coalition will happen any time soon

Thank god.

I think right/left can work together. Basically becoming Centre. You need to have balance. Certain departments are more suited to the right while others are more suited to the left wing.

I don't think the Green Party would make it an unstable government.

I would not suggest that FG consider going into government with SP.

Anyway SP won't go into government with anyone since they are ultra-socialist, and agree with no one.

nesf

Elmo wrote:

I cann't see SP being in government with any of the parties TBH. I don't think the FG/Lab are that desprate to make up the numbers. The Greens are a a centre party IMO.

I can't see it either but I think it'd be more for stability reasons than their numbers not being necessary.

Elmo wrote:

I don't like this term. PDs are Ultra-conservative.

Ultra-conservative? They're (or at least claim to be) socially liberal. Far to the right economically sure, but I wouldn't describe them as being conservative socially tbh.

Elmo wrote:

I think right/left can work together. Basically becoming Centre. You need to have balance. Certain departments are more suited to the right while others are more suited to the left wing.

I don't think the Green Party would make it an unstable government.

I would not suggest that FG consider going into government with SP.

Anyway SP won't go into government with anyone since they are ultra-socialist, and agree with no one.

I agree, though I think that if both parties are too far from the centre they'll have difficulty in finding common ground to build from. I think the Greens will make it more unstable than a simple FG/Lab government but it would probably work. It just wouldn't be as straightforward as the FG/Lab coalition. Can you imagine if the Greens picked up more seats than Labour though? That would be interesting.

Marathon Man

Fianna Fail don't want back in. They realise the country is on the verge of a downward spiral. In opposition they can then blame the new government for what was going to happen anyway.

murphaph

Well, I voted FG/LAB/GREEN and was surprised to see so many agree. Pleasantly surprised I might add. I feel it's time for change. FF are stale and haven't delivered on the NDP 2000-2006. The money has been there or they could have borrowed to complete it (not all borrowing is bad!) but the didn't. I am also deeply against building (more) private hospitals on public land. I believe the green element would be good for public transport while being in the minority they would have to accept that roads are needed too.

brianthebard

I think people are picking the FG/Lab/green because the other green alternative is green/ff, which aren't really that compatible. I don't think we'll see the green party in government unless both FF and FG take big hits, which doesn't make sense.

Lennoxschips

I voted other: Urban/city planning

An issue that ties infrastructure, public transport, green issues, housing and corruption all together.

It's genuinely sad to see how Ireland has developed into a disgusting L.A. style sprawl in the last 10 years. And it's permanent, can't get rid of it now.

I can remember when most people in Cork city walked everywhere or took the bus. We developed later than other countries, where the hard lessons where already learned. We could have built ideal cities based on those lessons. But no, we let the developers maximise their profit.

After that I'd say the health service is another major issue for me.

Then road safety. The speed limits need to be lowered on many roads in Ireland, and advisory speeds need to be posted at dangerous corners. And another thing, if I tested 0.8 per mil alcohol (the Irish limit) here in Holland, they'd take my license off me. The whole provisional licensing system needs to be scrapped.

Captain Planet

TBH, I think odds are very likely of Greens being in government. Though FG will make gains, FG/LAB just won't add up. It really doesnt follow that FF and FG have to make big losses for the Greens to get in, not at all. at all.

The idea that the PDs are socially liberal is the biggest lie in Irish politics. They're IMO the most socially conservative party we have (think ASBOS, reduced pub opening hours, blocking/stalling all efforts to bring in same-sex marriage). The one thing keeping them going in Irish politics was their "integrity" as moral guardians, which was flushed away following Bertiegate. *End rant*

I'm voting Green, partly cos they are the party of public transport, partly cos they are the only ones who will deal with climate change, partly cos of their stand on same-sex marriage, and partly because their policies are eminently sensible.

Rowley Birkin QC

wheres the FF majority option?

Elmo

Ultra-conservative? They're (or at least claim to be) socially liberal. Far to the right economically sure, but I wouldn't describe them as being conservative socially tbh.

I don't like when people go around saying they are Liberal, generally they are lying. Socially the PD's are hugely conservative.

As a woman Mary Harney should be ashamed of her handleing of the nurses (a profession still viewed by many as a vocation). Mary these women aren't nuns, and the only reason you cann't pay them good money is because they are women in a Woman's profession (not that I beleive this, after a 4 year degree I think people deserve some money espically nurses).

Micheal McDowell is ultra-conservative in his role as Minister for Justice. He insists that policy and legislation will change the justice system. It won't. He is unwill to accept his resposiblity in the handling of the C case or should I say lack of handling. He had more then 5 years to insure that Sex Crimes and the Justice system surrounding victims of sex crimes to be changed. During the contraversy he even had the gaul to suggest that the AG was in the wrong during the C case, a case that was going to go before the Courts according to him over the last 70 years. So why McDowell as AG from 1999 to 2002 did you sit back and do nothing, why didn't you do something about the Law surrounding rape and other sex crimes during your first year as Minister for Justice. and lets not talk about his conservative approach to Immigration, rather then have a Amnesty for Illegal Immigrants he has a wish-washy Arms Amnesty. Lets not talk about ASBO which do nothing to actually help.

I see this poll is turning out like I expected-nowhere near reality.
60% in favour of lab/FG/Green

And if this had been a which party you vote for poll another 30% would be Sinn Féin probably...

Thats what you get with a poll on a discussion forum thats a honey pot for the politically active minded.
It's not like a RED C or an MRBI because we don't have any input into selecting a cross section of society for the survey.

Mind you the poll results were never going to surprise me given the leaning of the posts here.

nesf

Elmo wrote:

I don't like when people go around saying they are Liberal, generally they are lying. Socially the PD's are hugely conservative.

As a woman Mary Harney should be ashamed of her handleing of the nurses (a profession still viewed by many as a vocation). Mary these women aren't nuns, and the only reason you cann't pay them good money is because they are women in a Woman's profession (not that I beleive this, after a 4 year degree I think people deserve some money espically nurses).

Um, the nurses thing isn't really liberal or conservative imho.

Elmo wrote:

Micheal McDowell is ultra-conservative in his role as Minister for Justice. He insists that policy and legislation will change the justice system. It won't. He is unwill to accept his resposiblity in the handling of the C case or should I say lack of handling. He had more then 5 years to insure that Sex Crimes and the Justice system surrounding victims of sex crimes to be changed. During the contraversy he even had the gaul to suggest that the AG was in the wrong during the C case, a case that was going to go before the Courts according to him over the last 70 years. So why McDowell as AG from 1999 to 2002 did you sit back and do nothing, why didn't you do something about the Law surrounding rape and other sex crimes during your first year as Minister for Justice. and lets not talk about his conservative approach to Immigration, rather then have a Amnesty for Illegal Immigrants he has a wish-washy Arms Amnesty. Lets not talk about ASBO which do nothing to actually help.

I don't know, I've always taken liberal to mean not necessarily in favour of tradition and authoritarianism. I did say that they claimed to be liberal because I'm unconvinced myself but I don't think you could call the above ultra-conservative socially. We don't get constant rhetoric about the Church, the traditional family and so on. (We could though be just interpreting the same things as having different labels though)

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you the poll results were never going to surprise me given the leaning of the posts here.

Any theories on why the leaning is the way it is? Is it an example of the phenomena you sometimes see on bulletin boards where the majority view is under-represented and vice versa for the minority views?

Elmo

We don't get constant rhetoric about the Church, the traditional family and so on. (We could though be just interpreting the same things as having different labels though)

From which party do we get Church rhetoric?

As for the family, we should support the family. The PD/FF government have said that they are liberial by giving tax credits to perants who go out to work, yet they have taken tax credits away from families with one parent staying at home. Yet if it was a liberal government they would have increased tax credits to women who go to work while their partner stays at home. (But perhaps this is ultra liberal).

I've always taken liberal to mean not necessarily in favour of tradition and authoritarianism

When do liberal leanings become traditional and authoritarian? Perhaps some tradions are liberal. Liberal is not interpreting the same things as having different labels.

Um, the nurses thing isn't really liberal or conservative imho.

It is a fact that women get paid less then men. If the majority of nurses where men they would be paid more this is a fact. I can see that the profession of nursing is unfortunately underminded by the fact that the majority of nurse are women. This is a fact and if the Liberal minister for health was to progress the womans cause she would have given increments with out question without the need for strikes and work to rule, nurse would not have even had to ask.

It is a conservative view that Nursing is a vocation, nursing is not a vocation it is a profession and more importantly a career for many people.


As for the above poll, I would read too much into it. But you could always look at it that here FG have 60% and FF have 40%, FF supporters are very varied IMO they understand that the party will go into government with anyone and that is what the poll reflexs

The Rooster

Time to get FF out, but the I hate the thought of the Greens being in government. I think FG + Labour + PDs would work well as a combination if they forgave and forgot. Most of the PDs are former Fine Gaelers anyway. Though the polls say the PDs won't have enough seats to figure...

Elmo

Time to get FF out, but the I hate the thought of the Greens being in government. I think FG + Labour + PDs would work well as a combination if they forgave and forgot. Most of the PDs are former Fine Gaelers anyway. Though the polls say the PDs won't have enough seats to figure...

It's time to get the PD's out of government. They are to far right for Labour.

Anyway our system is all over the place realistically the divisions should be like so: -

FG/PD
FF/SF
LAB/GP
and others, why? we have no really socialist or capitalist groupings IMO and very few in the Centre.

You will note that the PD's came from FF and invited some from FG to join them.

Mary Harney (FF), Micheal McDowell (FG). Liz O'Donnell is a PD I don't think she was involved in other parties.

The O'Malley's (FF) i.e. the founders.

nesf

nesf wrote:

Any theories on why the leaning is the way it is? Is it an example of the phenomena you sometimes see on bulletin boards where the majority view is under-represented and vice versa for the minority views?

Well I'd imagine that a lot of the electorate here are young and are less representative of the whole of the country.
By young I mean under 30. A lot of these people would be quite aspirational in nature.
You also have party hacks frequenting here or people who are vociferous and feel the urge to get their views down in a thread.

As for me I'm just totally cynical of the alternative to the current bunch.I suppose I'm old enough to remember a couple of FG and labour governments and expect that after 2 or 3 years,we'll all be on here complaining about the new FG/Lab?Green or whatever it is government that we get after this one.

I'm not naive to be taken in by opposition promises.I know they wont deliver on the quarter of them.
That said a change is as good as a rest and as long as I think who I vote for aren't going to wreck the economy and will make some attempt to reform the health service I'll be happy.

For instance I'd prioritise funding and listen to no bull about it and open closed wards -The nurses would be found somewhere.
I cant fathom why thats not being done but I expect whatever is stopping it will still be around under a new FG lab government and that they will be a lot slower that they say they will be solving it.

Anyhow enough said by me.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Well I'd imagine that a lot of the electorate here are young and are less representative of the whole of the country.

By young I mean under 30. A lot of these people would be quite aspirational in nature.

I hope that's not a rehash of the maxim
"If you're not a socialist in your 20's you have no heart, If you're not a conservative in your 30's you have no brain"

You also have party hacks frequenting here or people who are vociferous and feel the urge to get their views down in a thread.

Are there more opposition party hacks than FF PD hacks? I thought Fianna Fail were famous for their active grassroots membership?

As for me I'm just totally cynical of the alternative to the current bunch.I suppose I'm old enough to remember a couple of FG and labour governments and expect that after 2 or 3 years,we'll all be on here complaining about the new FG/Lab?Green or whatever it is government that we get after this one.

Yeah we probably will, But many people are extremely annoyed with the Privatise everything agenda of the FF/PD government. At least with labour and the greens, this will be postponed. A lot of people are also extremely annoyed with the cosy/crony relationship between FF and the developers that has blocked any kind of sensible planning during the fastest period of expansion in the history of the state. FF and the PDs have no vision other than 'more of the same' mostly failed and failing policies.

That said a change is as good as a rest and as long as I think who I vote for aren't going to wreck the economy and will make some attempt to reform the health service I'll be happy.

I think the economy is already wrecked. Whoever wins this election will get the blame, But while it might look shiny and impressive, there are enormous cracks under the surface and the economy is no longer capable of standing. It will crumble with a puff of wind from the wrong direction.

For instance I'd prioritise funding and listen to no bull about it and open closed wards -The nurses would be found somewhere.

Something that should have been done years ago, and will never be done as long as the PDs and FF are pursuing a policy of "Starving the Beast" in all public services to manufacture an excuse to pursue privatisation. (the examples of this are everywhere, Dublin Bus refused permission to expand fleet, ESB forced to raise prices to 'attract competition and make the balance sheet look healthier prior to a privatisation, Hospitals forced to give away land for free to private hospitals, forced to close services while private HMOs are being given tax breaks and incentives etc etc etc

I cant fathom why thats not being done

It's in ideological addiction to private enterprise and small government which would not be so pervasive under a government that includes Labour and the Greens

I read your entire post akrasia and just have one immediate issue with it-how is the economy wrecked exactly?

The Rooster

Akrasia wrote:

Hospitals forced to give away land for free to private hospitals,

Well that's bull anyway.

The hospitals will be getting close to half a million up front for a site that they could probably do little with anyway. The hospitals will get a guaranteed annual rental, the private operator is oliged to build a state of the art facility from scratch (costing €200 million plus) and then at the end of 50 years, they hand it over to the State free gratis!

Its a great deal for the public hospitals / state. But Labour have done a great job in blinding most people to the facts

Mizu_Ger

The Economy for me. All the parties are making big claims of Stamp Duty changes, income tax reductions etc etc, but so far I have only seen one party say anything about growing the economy and tackling inflation. That has to be done first to pay for everything else.

I'm surprised crime is so low. General public disorder and eduction would be my second(s).

Khannie

I voted "crime", but it's more "antisocial behaviour". There's a real problem in my locality with gangs of 60-100 14-17 year olds roaming around with bags of cans, doing damage as they see fit with nobody to stop them (the police station closes at 6pm :rolleyes:).

lunapark

The Rooster wrote:

Time to get FF out

No way!you know, i think what everyone is forgeting, in fairness to FF, is that the last ten years have been a whirlwind of events, everything has happened so quickly, economy wise, jesus who would have thought that in ten years time there would have been more than .5 million immigrants in this country!!!!
So sorry, but FF have'nt done too bad at all, considering the blast of events that have changed tha face of Ireland in the last two govt. terms...
And of course, easy for snivelly little Enda to take the throne and refine ten years of blood sweat and tears. I'm sorry he drives me mad- remember the amount of cheap shots he took at bertie AND his family( divorce etc.) regarding those 'payments' bertie received- what a great guy to lead an inspirational country on many grounds (esp. economy ) like Ireland.

lunapark

The Rooster wrote:

Time to get FF out

No way!befor you all get carried with a different govt,you know, i think what everyone is forgeting, in fairness to FF, is that the last ten years have been a whirlwind of events, everything has happened so quickly, economy wise, jesus who would have thought that in ten years time there would have been more than .5 million immigrants in this country!!!!
So sorry, but FF have'nt done too bad at all, considering the blast of events that have changed tha face of Ireland in the last two govt. terms...
And of course, easy for snivelly little Enda to take the throne and refine ten years of blood sweat and tears. I'm sorry he drives me mad- remember the amount of cheap shots he took at bertie AND his family( divorce etc.) regarding those 'payments' bertie received- what a great guy to lead an inspirational country on many grounds (esp. economy ) like Ireland.

galactus

FF + Labour- not an option according to Rabbitt tonight.

/RANT:

Also will people please give up the idea that FF/PDs are "responsible" for the Celtic Tiger.

Global Economics, low corporate tax, demographics - any eejit government could have presided over our recent growth. It takes a different class of muppet altogether to squander it. We all know the gory details: a f***-ed up public service, out-negotiated by private companies and religious orders.

And on top of of it all...THE ARROGANCE. Telling fibs i can take. Its the FF sanctimonious attiude..yes (FF2 etc.)

Think Bertie isn't lying to us about being on the take? Grow up.

In summary: well pissed off in Cork. About time Michael Martin grew some balls and went independant.

The_Minister

galactus wrote:

FF + Labour- not an option according to Rabbitt tonight

Thats not what he said. Listen to what he actually said, not seemed to say, and he refused to rule it out.

galactus

The_Minister wrote:

Thats not what he said. Listen to what he actually said, not seemed to say, and he refused to rule it out.

Well you'd better email RTE and tell them so LOL

"Labour leader Pat Rabbitte renewed his stance that his party would not enter into a coalition with Fianna Fáil"