Has the 'Champions League' got any credibility now?

p.pete

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Current Premiership standings:


1 Man Utd - 85 pts
2 Chelsea - 80 pts
3 Liverpool - 67 pts


Current Serie A standings:


1 Inter Milan - 87 pts
2 Roma - 69 pts
3 AC Milan - 59 pts


Now it would seem to me that a European Cup final ought to showcase the two greatest teams in Europe. Based on the above domestic tables, that is not what we are going to get this year in Athens at all.

So my question to you all is this - is it time to revamp the format of the Champions League?

That scenario above was perfectly capable of happening under the old system when only the Champions of each league qualified. I don't think too much of a revamp is needed but maybe a name change. It certainly provides a lot more worthwhile european football participation that the Cup Winners Cup ever provided (I'm not bitter due to Liverpool never winning it).

The tournament was perfectly respectable until rable like Porto and Liverpool started spoiling it for everyone else...

cashback

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Credit to Liverpool and Milan for making the final and while I question the system which paved the path for them, their journey was admirable and they merit reaching their destination.

So as a United fan, you will always question the system that allowed them win the Champions league in 1999? I can't see you starting this thread if United were in another final. They shouldn't have been in it this season if it was only a league for Champions.
You asked were Milan and Liverpool the two best teams in Europe this season? Well they battled their way to the final so I suppose they are.
This years league positions have nothing to do with it either.

county

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

I think there should be a max of 2 teams from each country in the CL
still both milan and liverpool are deserved finalists

i would agree with that

~Rebel~

Agh. Got halfway through reading this thread and wanted to cry!

NO KNOCK OUT TOURNAMENT WILL CONSISTENTLY PRODUCE THE "BEST TEAM IN EUROPE".

There, now is that clear? you can revamp it all you want. If you really want the best team in europe, then what you need to get is get all the top teams into a league, have them all play each other twice, home and away, and then see who is at the top at the end.

People said there was parity restored last year when "proper champions" Barcelona won it, but i can only image the whinging if Barca had lost to Arsenal after liverpool winning it the previous year, the complaints, just like this one, that champions weren't winning it. The only way "worthy champions" are gonna win it every year is if you have the top english, spanish, italian and maybe german, dutch and french team (though i'm sure they wouldnt be considered worthy if teams like bremen, alkmar and Nantes were produced) play each other, but to be honest that would be a bit sh!t cause its only a handful of games, and dammit i love my european football!


Yes in theoryits a beutiful idea, the winners playing each other, but in practice its just a handful of unreal teams playing a load of substandard ones. Yeah thered be the odd upset but all in all crap football.

In practice, right now, we have IMO the perfect mix of quality, underdogs (still good enough to all still have a chance of beating a big dog), scheduling and knockout. It just works the way it is. Maybe you could lessen it to the top 2 teams from the big leagues, but you still have your problem of the CHAMPIONS not being in it so in that sense there is no change, and the competition suffers as it loses quality. Liverpool and Milan are in the final because they are good enough to be. They beat all comers. Thats what a knock out tournament is all about!

Mr.Nice.Guy, the only point i really keep seeing over and over is that its called The Champions League. Its a brand name - get over it! Refer to it as the European Cup yourself if you like. What the champions league is all about is the best of the best up against each other - and thats what we get. The winners of each european league ARE IN IT THEY'RE JUST NOT ALL GOOD ENOUGH TO QUALIFY FOR THE FINAL STAGES. What exactly is the problem with weeding out the poor teams? If they're good enough, they go on to face the usurpers to their rightful throne, the 2nd's 3rds and 4ths of top leagues - if they're good enough, they'll win. As I said, take out the quality, and the competition suffers for it. <<<EDIT>>> Had a big thing about the eircom league clubs being probably happier with it the way it is as they can have proper european runs against equal quality teams, if they win they step up to the next level and take them on, if they keep doing this they will eventually start in the same place as the english teams. Its fair. Unlucky Lloyd explained it very well

Christ. Rant over.

redzerdrog

super_furry wrote:

You think that's good? You should see his travel plans for the final - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/DJDunk/Athens.jpg

robbed for my bebo page:o

FatherTed

Fact is that Chelsea and Man Utd are both out of the CL now because they are going full whack in the Prem plus the FA Cup.

Unlike Liverpool who were finished with the Prem in December. Milan are 28 points behind Inter.

Fact: Gerrard, Carragher, Reina, Mascherano, Crouch, Kuyt, Finnan were all rested on Saturday.

Fact: Inzaghi, Kaka, Jankulovski, Gattuso were all rested on Saturday.

Every league game Chelsea and Man Utd is like a CL final. Not so for Liverpool who can take it easy.

Liverpool or Milan will win the CL competition. But they are nowhere being the best team in their country.

super_furry

Fact is United are out.

Waaaaaah!

PiE

Lemons. Everywhere.

I love how EL fans seem to think their teams should be allowed fast-track into the European big leagues. The 'top teams' are the top f*ckin' teams because they've earned it over... ohhh I dunno.. the last 100 years?

Sure it's not easy but the smaller champions all have their chances, just keep working on that coefficient and bloody earn your place. Oh and stop letting idiots run your league into the ground.

John_C

PiE wrote:

Lemons. Everywhere.

I know. To me the "Champions'" League lost all credability when Derry was allowed to enter.

Tusky

We watch the champions league because we get to see great teams from different countries play against each other. Thats what makes it special, competitive and entertaining. Liverpool v Barcelona, Milan v Celtic, Utd v Milan, B.Munich v Milan etc

If the ammount of teams entering from the top leagues is reduced it will make the competition less competitive, more predictable and ultimately alot less special. People seem to be getting hung up on the name 'Champions League' - if thats the only problems then the name should be changed to European Cup because the current format is on par with the world cup for thrilling, entertaining clashes of the worlds best footballers.

Its hard to take this outcry against the champions league seriously seeing as its been brought up on the same night that Man Utd crash out of Europe.

PHB

The format is fine. It's a knock out competition. Anybody can win. Nobody says that the winners of the Champions League are the best two teams in Europe.

I think that sums up the whole thing.
CL is lots of fun, best cup competition in the world, and we get to see really exciting games between teams that you normally wouldn't see.
In the old format, United and Milan and Liverpool wouldn't even be in the thing, but where would the fun in that be?

It really is hard to see this as anything but trying to justify the idea that United are still better than Liverpool despite them being in the CL cup final.

My views on the CL have been stated many times before, as I don't think it's the best test of skill, but is the cup without credibility? I don't know, the FA Cup very rarely has the top two teams from England in it? This year it has number one and two, but last year it didn't? Does that mean the FA Cup has no credibility?

It's a cup. Milan were better than United over two legs. Liverpool were better than Chelsea over two legs.

Does that mean that Liverpool are better than Chelsea? Maybe, the league would suggest otherwise, but then again, Chelsea vs. Liverpools headtohead would suggest so. Does that mean Milan are better than United? The relative league positions would suggest otherwise, but the two knockouts over the last three years would suggest so.

Sure this is half the fun, there's no real way to determine the best team, just different opinions.

Kingp35

I agree to a point with Mr. Nice Guy. There is no way that four teams from one country should be allowed enter this competition. Its an absolute joke and is totally unfair on smaller nations. You lot keep going on about the best teams should be in it and I agree to a point but you cant do this without hurting the development of football in smaller nations. Anybody here who says that smaller nations get a fair crack of the whip are deluded. Football is all about the big G-14 teams now and its starting to get sickening. Ill take EL teams as an example. They have to enter the CL at the Qualifying rounds. They have to win three rounds to get into the CL. As its a cup competition and anything can happen as people keep saying then even though they could be the better side they still may not make it whereas a team that finished fourth in another league could.

Its all about money. UEFA have set up the competition in a way that the big clubs will qualify because if they dont then UEFA will lose a fortune. Its a flawed competition and it is totally geared towards the G-14. Liverpool and Milan totally deserved to be in the final this year BUT I seriously think that a limit of three per country should be brought in to at least give the smaller clubs some kind of chance of getting in. At the moment they have no hope because the money just keeps getting pumped at the top clubs and the divide gets bigger and bigger.

The CL is a great competition with some wonderful football but it is totally unfair on smaller clubs.

LuckyLloyd

Kingp35 wrote:

Ill take EL teams as an example. They have to enter the CL at the Qualifying rounds. They have to win three rounds to get into the CL

Does their consistent failure to win two two - legged cup ties in succession against the weaker end of European competition not indicate that they aren't good enough to be at the table?

Shelbourne got close in 2004, but were unable to beat Steau Bucharest the following year, and it wasn't really close. The Swiss team that got in last year - they deserved their place, and won their way in. So if someone from the Swiss league was to complain about this topic I would certaintly listen to their complaints a little more attentively.

Tusky

Kingp35 wrote:

I agree to a point with Mr. Nice Guy. There is no way that four teams from one country should be allowed enter this competition. Its an absolute joke and is totally unfair on smaller nations. You lot keep going on about the best teams should be in it and I agree to a point but you cant do this without hurting the development of football in smaller nations. Anybody here who says that smaller nations get a fair crack of the whip are deluded. Football is all about the big G-14 teams now and its starting to get sickening. Ill take EL teams as an example. They have to enter the CL at the Qualifying rounds. They have to win three rounds to get into the CL. As its a cup competition and anything can happen as people keep saying then even though they could be the better side they still may not make it whereas a team that finished fourth in another league could.

Its all about money. UEFA have set up the competition in a way that the big clubs will qualify because if they dont then UEFA will lose a fortune. Its a flawed competition and it is totally geared towards the G-14. Liverpool and Milan totally deserved to be in the final this year BUT I seriously think that a limit of three per country should be brought in to at least give the smaller clubs some kind of chance of getting in. At the moment they have no hope because the money just keeps getting pumped at the top clubs and the divide gets bigger and bigger.

The CL is a great competition with some wonderful football but it is totally unfair on smaller clubs.

The champions league showcases the best teams and players in the world. If they were good enough, they would get past the 3 qualifying rounds.

raven136

uefa are running a third and fourth place play off for the champions league this year.The match will be played at the new Wembley and will be called the FA Cup!!!!:D

All joking aside the champions league is exciting,fun and may not always have the 2 best teams(in their respective league) but invariably the 2 who make nearly always deserve it.Can anyone honestly say Milan and Liverpool dont deserve it after beating the 3 favourites?

Kingp35

Tusky wrote:

The champions league showcases the best teams and players in the world. If they were good enough, they would get past the 3 qualifying rounds.

Your right, they are not good enough at the moment, I never said they were. My problem is that they are not being given a chance to ever get good enough. UEFA dont care about the smaller Leagues. Having four teams from England Italy and Spain in it is just making it harder for smaller clubs to develop. They never get the chance to earn the type of cash that the top four in England earn. Football is all about money now, if you dont have money you will win nothing with maybe Porto being the exception although they are not exactly broke now are they.

Look im not living on a cloud where I think EL teams or teams of other smaller clubs are good enough to compete with the richer leagues but until changes are made then they will never be. The divide is getting bigger and bigger because the money is all going to the top clubs. Its a sad state of affairs really that any real football fan should be worried about.

DerekD Goldfish

The World Cup is suposed to be for the top nations in the wolrd
in relaity at any one time only 1 African Side is good enough to be concidered in the top 32 and no asian side is. But Fifa knowns its good for the delelopment fo the game to have them there. There are European and South american nations that miss out that are better than some of the african/aisan nations there but I think its fairer that way.
I do think the more powerful nations deserve an extra place in th CL because thier leagues are stronger the same way europe gets more WC places. I just dont think they should get 4 each.
IMO Top 2 from Italy,Spain,England,Germany and whichever league is 5th in the coefficent league that seaoson.
The holders also get automatic qualification.
Every other league gets one
The winners of the top 5 leagues and the holders get automatic qualification.
2nd place in the top 5 and the winners of all other leages get dwarn togeter till its down to 32 teams for the group stages (probably 2 rounds)

I think this system would be the fairist of the lot.

wont happen though
If it did we might one day see a retuirn to when the likes of Seeau Beuacarest could win the CL and teams from eastern europe,scandanavia and maybe even Ireland could participe in the later stages.
The Big teams will always dominate but it doesnt have to be to the entent they are now.

RE*AC*TOR

Look at the expression on the Chelsea players faces after the penalty shoot-out - that's the credibility.

Its still the top european comeptition, and does as good a job of pitting the best teams in Europe against each other.

DerekD Goldfish

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Look at the expression on the Chelsea players faces after the penalty shoot-out - that's the credibility.

Its still the top european comeptition, and does as good a job of pitting the best teams in Europe against each other.

In not saying its not credible Im just saying the current format isnt good for the development of the game

LuckyLloyd

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

In not saying its not credible Im just saying the current format isnt good for the development of the game

If the Eircom league cannot produce a team that is good enough to get to the third qualifying round regularly, then the problems of developing the domestic game are much beyond the fact that the top five co - efficient leagues get four places each in the competition. Irish football doesn't help itself much and, as such, is not deserving of any help from outside sources - or a rejig to the best club cup competition in the world.

Kingp35

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

If the Eircom league cannot produce a team that is good enough to get to the third qualifying round regularly, then the problems of developing the domestic game are much beyond the fact that the top five co - efficient leagues get four places each in the competition. Irish football doesn't help itself much and, as such, is not deserving of any help from outside sources - or a rejig to the best club cup competition in the world.

This isnt about Irish football, it is about football in ALL the smaller nations and UEFA are doing nothing to help the development of football in those countries. They are supposed to represent all of Europe and not just the top clubs.

DerekD Goldfish

Kingp35 wrote:

This isnt about Irish football, it is about football in ALL the smaller nations and UEFA are doing nothing to help the development of football in those countries. They are supposed to represent all of Europe and not just the top clubs.

Exaclty this is far more than an Eircom Leage v Premership argument

or a rejig to the best club cup competition in the world.

THE WC is the best International Competition in the world do Iran,South Korea, trinidad deserve a place?

leninbenjamin

I though everyone would agree that the current format of the Champions league is mainly to maximise revenues? I mean the group stages is there to pretty much eliminate the chances of a smaller club causing an upset and getting into the latter stages? It takes more clubs from the heavy hitting nations because frankly if all leagues were limited to only one team there would be a lot less public interest. I didn't really think it ever pretended to be anything else than what it is, a money spinner?

doesn't mean i don't dislike it, the current format is probably the one that maximises entertainment value and public interest.

SCULLY

Personally I would prefer a change back to the old European Cup format of an open draw (no seedings) . I think the competition really only comes to life when it reaches the knockout stage anyway (there have obviously been good group stage games but an awful lot of crap ones as well). Not sour grapes, just my opinion..

DerekD Goldfish

SCULLY wrote:

Personally I would prefer a change back to the old European Cup format of an open draw (no seedings) . I think the competition really only comes to life when it reaches the knockout stage anyway (there have obviously been good group stage games but an awful lot of crap ones as well). Not sour grapes, just my opinion..

Will never happen though clubs and sponsors wouldnt let it
my sujestion is at least semi plausable

smemon

yeah i agree with this.

i've said before porto and liverpool winning the CL de-valued the competition as in most people's eyes, they were not contenders to retain it the following season - proving they were punching above their weight.

this year however, liverpool winning it wouldn't de-value it any imo as they are a much stronger side imo with a better manager.

Winning 2 champions leagues in 3 seasons would be a false position of where liverpool are imo.. You'd associate that with a Madrid, Barcelona an AC Milan.. powerhouses of football who are ALWAYS challenging domestically.

The reality is liverpool haven't challenged for the league in years. It's almost as if they're using the bus lane when they don't drive a bus or a taxi that's how a lot of non-liverpool supporters see it imo. And that's why some of us are bitter.

Royale with Cheese

smemon wrote:

yeah i agree with this.

i've said before porto and liverpool winning the CL de-valued the competition as in most people's eyes, they were not contenders to retain it the following season - proving they were punching above their weight.

this year however, liverpool winning it wouldn't de-value it any imo as they are a much stronger side imo with a better manager.

Winning 2 champions leagues in 3 seasons would be a false position of where liverpool are imo.. You'd associate that with a Madrid, Barcelona an AC Milan.. powerhouses of football who are ALWAYS challenging domestically.

The reality is liverpool haven't challenged for the league in years. It's almost as if they're using the bus lane when they don't drive a bus or a taxi that's how a lot of non-liverpool supporters see it imo. And that's why some of us are bitter.

So you're bitter because Liverpool have been successful in the competition recently and United haven't? Perhaps United have some divine right to be in the final every year? Liverpool earned their success in the competition recently and United just haven't. Their away form in Europe is awful.

smemon

Royale with Cheese wrote:

So you're bitter because Liverpool have been successful in the competition recently and United haven't? Perhaps United have some divine right to be in the final every year?

i never said i was bitter, in fact i said liverpool winning it this year wouldn't de-value anything as the current side is better than the 2005 side imo.

i'm saying a lot of people are bitter because they've reached 2 finals in 3 years on the back of finishing 3rd/4th/5th? And in some people's eyes you shouldn't be winning the champions league if you can barely qualify for it.

Royale with Cheese

Milan have reached 3 finals in 5 years, only qualifying for the tournament as league champions on one of those occassions. They weren't even supposed to be in the compeititon this year. Still, you won't hear mzny people begrudging their success, not outside of Italy anyway.

leninbenjamin

smemon wrote:

i never said i was bitter, in fact i said liverpool winning it this year wouldn't de-value anything as the current side is better than the 2005 side imo.

i'm saying a lot of people are bitter because they've reached 2 finals in 3 years on the back of finishing 3rd/4th/5th? And in some people's eyes you shouldn't be winning the champions league if you can barely qualify for it.

so would you prefer to see mediocre sides like PSV going into the semis unopposed? because that's what would happen if you take also-rans like Liverpool out of the equation. they might not be competing domestically but they are miles better than the bulk of European clubs who are in the competition. if anything allowing the stronger teams in, rather than just the ones who win raises the overall quality of the league.