Global Warming.

McSandwich

cooperguy wrote:

Anyway at the end of the day even if it is natural and everybody will be grand its always a good thing to move to renewable energy etc. the way we currently power our world is bad for our health, expensive and cant last forever anyway because they are limited resources.

Exactly, and that cannot be denied.

In my opinion, burning oil at the current rate is an incredible waste of a valuable resource. We need it for production of medicines, plastics, synthetic fibres, replacement body parts, antiseptics, fertiliser, construction materials, amongst many other things.

When all the oil is gone, we may have to live without many of these things. Even if you think (man made) global warming is a myth, that's a good enough reason to make more use of renewable energy.

Fanny Cradock

Endurance Man wrote:

Dont cows farts cause more global warming than man made gasses? That cant really be out fault.

No, it's their burps. Besides, we are the ones who are actively breeding the cattle for our consumption, e.g. Big Macs. I see no difference breeding them to excess and putting more cars on the road.

Steyr

If this is Global Warming then bring it on....:D Did anybody hear that Scientist on PK ( Pat Kenny ) a few weeks ago saying that Global Warming was Normal and that the Earth is doing this in a Cycle, basically he said that the Earth is heating up naturally and then down the line will cool down again then heat up again. I dont care i love the Sun keep it coming!:D

padi89

ScumLord wrote:

Here's the doco on youtube,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXc9H5JSyow

Heres the wikipedia page,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle

Heres the programme in full, i found it very interesting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4499562022478442170&q=the+great+global+warming+swindle

Salthillwarrior

nobodies really touched on it but, regardless of whether or not this is a natural earth cycle or the result of mans impact on the environment the earth is globally warming... thus "global warming" is happening. You can argue until the cows come home about which theory is right, it still doesn't change the fact that the icecaps are melting, the seasons are getting shorter and that our generation is going to see the Arctic disappear. Regardless of the cause, the effect is happening now.

You're dead right. It is happening but not on a huge scale though(.6c in 100 years). How long it will continue to warm and to what extent nobody knows and if they say they do then they are wrong. So we should just go with the flow, adapt if needs be and stay energy effiecient as that makes good sense regardless.

Ice_Box

Im sure Steorn will save us all just in time. :rolleyes:

Glowing

I think a major part of the problem is not the actual temperature increase, but the fact that it will cause many of our natural cycles to spiral out of control leading to an exponental increase in temperature, Co2 release, etc etc ... nobody knows where that point of no return is however, but the recent article in the Sunday Times Magazine estimated 2 degress.

Today is an unnaturally hot day!

beans

Some would argue that conserving our water supplies is more important than what car you drive. Without water for drinking and irrigation... well we know how that looks.

Think of the water used in industry, the water required to produce a Big Mac - dealing with our levels of consumption of such water-hungry processes always struck me as a great place for the man on the street to make a difference. Just a thought.

Salthillwarrior

Some would argue that conserving our water supplies is more important than what car you drive. Without water for drinking and irrigation... well we know how that looks.

We're never going to run out of water though are we, seeing as the polar caps are melting. Whatever it takes there will be water a plenty in the future. Just another little challenge for humans to overcome.

cooperguy

Salthillwarrior wrote:

We're never going to run out of water though are we, seeing as the polar caps are melting. Whatever it takes there will be water a plenty in the future. Just another little challenge for humans to overcome.

Ya no matter how bad droughts get surely we'll still be able to use de-salination on the oceans to produce our water. It might be expensive etc. but it is possible

beans

I see what you mean, but getting the runoff from the ice caps anywhere useful is the challenge there.

The amount of water available at any one time may be fine and dandy, but if there's not enough in the places it matters (parched fields and our reservoirs) then it doesnt matter how much is seeping into the Greenland brine.

Pherekydes

The writer of this letter has correctly identified the real cause of global warming:

Letter to Arkansas Democrat Gazette wrote:

You may have noticed that March of this year was particularly hot. As a matter of fact, I understand that it was the hottest March since the beginning of the last century. All of the trees were fully leafed out and legions of bugs and snakes were crawling around during a time in Arkansas when, on a normal year, we might see a snowflake or two.

This should come as no surprise to any reasonable person. As you know Daylight Savings time started almost a month early this year. You would think that members of Congress would have considered the warming effect that an extra hour of daylight would have on our climate. Or did they?

Perhaps this is another plot by a liberal Congress to make us believe that global warming is a real threat. Perhaps next time there should be serious studies performed before Congress passes laws with such far-reaching effects.

CONNIE M. MESKIMEN
Hot Springs

cooperguy

Oh dear god for the sake of humanity please somebody tell me that was a joke letter. My faith in the human race has taken yet another blow!!!

thelordofcheese

i can only assume it's tounge in cheek.

seand333

cooperguy wrote:

Ya no matter how bad droughts get surely we'll still be able to use de-salination on the oceans to produce our water. It might be expensive etc. but it is possible

De-salination is used in many world regions at the moment, especially the Middle East, but it appears to be very expensive and consumes high amounts of energy. The real problem could be decades down the line if global warming proves to be a huge problem and an energy crisis kicks in at the same time, with fossil fuel stocks running out. the world mightn't have the means to produce energy to desalinate. Problems with putting the waste saline content and other chemicals back into the sea after the fresh water is taken out will also affect the marine ecosystems, with over-salination becoming a problem. So while our generation might be ok, the **** could hit the fan for generations down the line. Don't want to sound doomsday-like, but if there's one problem that could bring chaos to civilisation it'll be water shortages.

beans

Oh, and while it may be true that the warming is part of a natural cycle, never in the planets history has so much water been tied up in all these manufacturing processes. This heavy use of water, combined with natural dry spells and heat, is the big picture if you ask me.

May not be the direct cause of what petrol you have in your car, but the net result could be the same when there's nothing to drink.

dlofnep

Oh look! Another baking hot day in Ireland.. LOL @ the debunkers who think this is normal. Ireland is cold, wet and miserable. Right now it's not fitting the stereotype - Cause? Global warming. Deny it if you wish.

brianthebard

Lolz at the fool who thinks one swallow makes a summer. Like I said come back to me when its been like this for ten years straight. It could rain for the rest of the summer for all you know. And as for Met eireann's predictions, anything after three days is guess work.

Glowing

Do you ever wonder what the point is in us making small changes in our lifestyle like changing to powersaver lightbulbs and recycling, when countries like China are pumping out billions of cubic meters of C02 every year, and its growing!
I don't think anything we do is going to make a difference while this sort of stuff is going on (although it doesn't stop me trying!)

dlofnep

I keep seeing China mentioned, the US pumps out nearly twice the amount of emissions of China. (http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2-emissions.html)

beans

Warm globe = global warming. Sure no-one's denying globabl warming, just it's causes and significance.

In ten years we _could_ see a period of global cooling!


As for small changes not making a difference, that's like saying 'what's the point of voting'. Tesco's Law, dude.

Glowing

dlofnep wrote:

I keep seeing China mentioned, the US pumps out nearly twice the amount of emissions of China.

True. I'll never understand their need to drive those massive pick-ups, I mean EVERYONE has them! Fair enough if you live or work on a farm, but as your main mode of transport to pick the kids up from school? Crazy :rolleyes:

solas

and if it snows in may?

Big Knox

Alessandra wrote:

Did these Hurricanes and famines and extremes of weather only start happening recently? I think not. Weather is by its' very nature extreme. Its like people saying society is gone to hell these days, when in fact people have always been bad/good. Weather is either bad/good. Natural disasters relaing to weather have always ocurred and will continue to occur, it's not a new phenomena. I refuse to believe this hype!

I'm really really sorry to have to say this but... you are an idiot. Do some research before you post on something you have absolutely no clue about.

Heres a hint watch "An inconvenient Truth" and see if it changes your view point. I know i'm being harsh here but this kind of ignorance annoys me. :mad:

brianthebard

Omg, a movie! that's a great way of educating a person. Why I bet they'll replace teachers with movies soon, they're just that good!

zuutroy

brianthebard wrote:

Omg, a movie! that's a great way of educating a person. Why I bet they'll replace teachers with movies soon, they're just that good!

My thoughts exactly....This thread is pretty much An Inconvenient Truth -vs- The Great Global Warming Swindle.

Big Knox

brianthebard wrote:

Omg, a movie! that's a great way of educating a person. Why I bet they'll replace teachers with movies soon, they're just that good!

Have you ****ing seen it??

dlofnep

brianthebard wrote:

Omg, a movie! that's a great way of educating a person. Why I bet they'll replace teachers with movies soon, they're just that good!

OMG, labeling something before even watching it!

So what if it's a movie? It's heavily researched and a very good documentary. What does it matter what medium is being used to portray it? If you don't have anything logical to add, just don't bother. Leave the red herrings for another day.

Pherekydes

Big Knox wrote:

I know i'm being harsh here but this kind of ignorance annoys me. :mad:

But not this type:

Big Knox wrote:

I'm really really sorry to have to say this but... you are an idiot.

??

nesf

Big Knox wrote:

I'm really really sorry to have to say this but... you are an idiot.

Congratulations on earning a week off from the forum for abuse. As a reward a free copy of "An Inconvenient Truth" will be sent to you in the post. Please enjoy its overly simplistic science and its simply false claim that carbon dioxide is the only cause of global warning.

segadreamcast

nesf wrote:

Congratulations on earning a week off from the forum for abuse. As a reward a free copy of "An Inconvenient Truth" will be sent to you in the post. Please enjoy its overly simplistic science and its simply false claim that carbon dioxide is the only cause of global warning.

It's designed for a mass medium. You have to keep things very, very simple to get such points across.

This is something I've researched somewhat thoroughly in the last six months; have read several (reputable) books on the topic and, some things in the thread just stick out... I'm sure there are plenty but... I'll focus on what's at hand:

Weather trends: "One swallow doesn't make a Summer". Indeed, it doesn't. However, an April that was on average eight percent above the previous record high? No? How about the fact that the ten warmest Summers recorded have been post-1995?

Water shortages: Yes, take Australia as your example. Water shortages in Victoria were consistently talked about in Tim Flannery's 2002 book The WeatherMakers and, of course, here they are - becoming more and more severe. In fact, here's an article from this week: http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9071007

Polar caps melting: The problem here (and, again, yes I'm being overly simplistic, but I think it's the best way to get the message across) is as such: ice reflects heat, water absorbs heat. If the polar caps become too warm and become water, the water is going to absorb even more heat from the sun, thus warming the oceans in a significant positive feedback loop, one which will destabilise currents such as the Gulf Stream... and then it becomes very, very unpredictable.

Like I said, I'm sure there are a ton of anomalies and errors throughout this thread - and to those recommending An Inconvenient Truth, it's a very good start - despite what some people say.

nesf

NoelRock wrote:

It's designed for a mass medium. You have to keep things very, very simple to get such points across.

I completely agree and admire it from that perspective. I'm just a little cautious of it, a bit like how you might lie to a child and say that the sun is a bit ball of fire. The problem with adults is that they can take the "fact" and run with it if you know what I mean.

I suppose how I'd describe it would be, I'd tell my father to watch it to get the point across and once he was concerned by it all I'd sit him down, de-program him and bring him up to speed on a more "scientific" view.

brianthebard

nesf wrote:

Congratulations on earning a week off from the forum for abuse. As a reward a free copy of "An Inconvenient Truth" will be sent to you in the post. Please enjoy its overly simplistic science and its simply false claim that carbon dioxide is the only cause of global warning.

*luvs nesf* yeah the film is something I'd give someone as a last resort, not as the be all and end all of global warming which too many people seem to think it is. (both here and irl)

Celticfire

Al Gore:

I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous it [global warming] is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are, and how hopeful it is that we are going to solve this crisis.

:rolleyes:

AlmightyCushion

L31mr0d wrote:

Also regardless of whether it will have an effect or not, we should all be investing in renewable energy. If not, you are going to start to see more and more nuclear power plants popping up all over the world as the substitute. The less reasons governments have to invest in nuclear energy as the solution the better

While I do agree that we should be investing in more renewable energy. I don't believe we should rule out nuclear power altogether. Yes it does produce radioactive waste but if they can get nuclear fussion working this will produce more energy and less long-term high-level radiotoxic materials that nuclear fission does. They are building a fusion plant in France at the moment. I don't have much information on it myself but if anyone does please post as I would like to see how it is getting on.

WindSock

This constant sunshine is a pain in the hole. Ireland is not equipped to deal with it.

Glowing

I'm looking forward to the day when its affordable to produce your own energy at home to suppliment the ESB supply. At the moment, the payback is about 30-40 years (I think) for something like solar panals or wind turbines.

ESB really need to put in place a method of buying back energy from residences if they generate more than they're using - (I think they have that in place in Belgium or Germany) ... but of course they'd loose money that way :rolleyes:

bobbyjoe

Celticfire wrote:

Al Gore:

:rolleyes:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605170011

dlofnep

brianthebard wrote:

*luvs nesf* yeah the film is something I'd give someone as a last resort, not as the be all and end all of global warming which too many people seem to think it is. (both here and irl)

I disagree. We're not all climatologists, and so - a well laid out documentary for the average person is probably the easiest way to address the issue to people who otherwise were not aware of it.

And once again, it's another day of blistering heat here. Short-term, the sun is great - Long-term, I really question the overall effects it will have on the world, which I'm afraid will be less than positive.

L31mr0d

AlmightyCushion wrote:

While I do agree that we should be investing in more renewable energy. I don't believe we should rule out nuclear power altogether. Yes it does produce radioactive waste but if they can get nuclear fussion working this will produce more energy and less long-term high-level radiotoxic materials that nuclear fission does. They are building a fusion plant in France at the moment. I don't have much information on it myself but if anyone does please post as I would like to see how it is getting on.

Fusion is not even an option, its theoretical. I don't doubt that we will be able to create nuclear fusion but we need a solution being rolled out NOW. As it is, nuclear fission plants take longer than 10 years to build, at least. Plus with nuclear fission comes H-Bombs. I personally would rather our efforts to save this planet not giving every nation on it the power to destroy it. We need a working solution in place by the pegged deadline of 2050. At the present rate of melting, the Arctic will be gone by 2040. So that gives us around 32 years to have a working solution in place to at least slow this, and this will involve either:

A. Dramatically decreasing our energy usuage (either we make the conscious decision to save energy or the governments to start implementing rolling blackouts) or
B. we start building renewable energy plants (nuclear fission is not truly renewable)

If I was to cast my vote I would go for hydropower, its eternally renewable, relatively easy to implement in many forms and can be rolled out anywhere on the planet. Its also tried, tested and trusted.

Wibbs

NoelRock wrote:

It's designed for a mass medium. You have to keep things very, very simple to get such points across.

Well it's designed for Americans with their quick fix/soundbite/recently bad education system. Anyway what the hell was Al gore doing when he was the 2nd most powerful man on the planet for 8 years? Hmmm. There's an inconvenient truth for him.

Weather trends: "One swallow doesn't make a Summer". Indeed, it doesn't. However, an April that was on average eight percent above the previous record high? No? How about the fact that the ten warmest Summers recorded have been post-1995?

Agreed, but records are patchy before 1800 and we were coming out of a very cold patch in the late middle ages which itself followed a very warm patch in the early medieval. Why do you think Greenland was called that by the Vikings? Newfoundland called Vineland. Vineyards in Britain, etc etc. That was followed by a period where rivers such as the Thames froze every winter and in one year in Britain it snowed in june.

Water shortages: Yes, take Australia as your example.

Yes lets. One of the worst droughts in Australia's history was in the 1850's, before all this talk of global warming.

Polar caps melting: The problem here (and, again, yes I'm being overly simplistic, but I think it's the best way to get the message across) is as such: ice reflects heat, water absorbs heat. If the polar caps become too warm and become water, the water is going to absorb even more heat from the sun, thus warming the oceans in a significant positive feedback loop, one which will destabilise currents such as the Gulf Stream... and then it becomes very, very unpredictable.

Again back to Greenland. If the glaciers were significantly reduced back then, it would likely follow that the polar ice cap was too. The feedback loop must have kicked off in some way, yet we're still here. In fact it was followed by a cold period, not a warm one.

Someone commented before that back in the past, people weren't dumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. By comparison to today, maybe not, but lets take Europe as an example. Europe was covered in forests. Places like Spain were forest from the north to the south. Humans cut them down and burned or used that resource for at least 2000 years. While the rate was slower, it must have had an effect if manmade CO2 has any role to play.

This stuff is cyclical. Not that long ago the Sahara was a lush wetland. The middle east was also far more verdant in the past. Cedars of Lebanon etc.

Temperatures on this planet have been far higher in the past. At the time of the dinosaurs there were no polar caps and the temps were much higher than now. In the much more recent past, the temperature in Britain was so warm it resembled African grasslands with it's fauna. Lions, elephants, hippos etc

While I do think we should try to reduce the possible problems caused by our output, I think we're a long way from the scaremongering apocalypse talked about by some. The recent sunday times magazine article was so over the top it wasn't funny.

L31mr0d

the great thing about this discussion is that most of us will get to see who's right in our lifetime.

It brings to mind the saying:

"Optimists believe we live in the best possible world, pessimists fear this is true"

McSandwich

AlmightyCushion wrote:

While I do agree that we should be investing in more renewable energy. I don't believe we should rule out nuclear power altogether. Yes it does produce radioactive waste but if they can get nuclear fussion working this will produce more energy and less long-term high-level radiotoxic materials that nuclear fission does. They are building a fusion plant in France at the moment. I don't have much information on it myself but if anyone does please post as I would like to see how it is getting on.

Nuclear Fusion power has the potential to solve the worlds energy needs - if it can be made commercially viable - hopefully in the next 30 years..

As for Nuclear Fission, given the security and safety risks not to mention transport requirments, it could take 20 years before we're ready to produce nuclear power.

Another thing, it's near impossible to open a dump, an incinerator, or even a wind generator in Ireland without years of protests, any politician who'd accept a nuclear power in his/her constituency may as well jump off a cliff!

Considering these issues, our small population, and that Uranium prices are soaring, it would make more sense to focus on renewable power generation. We also have the option of importing nuclear power and it would ne a good idea if we got involved in ITER (the nuclear fusion research project based in France).

bobbyjoe

The whole thing of attacking Al Gore is such a red herring.
Instead of discussing Global Warming people can discuss Gore's electricity bills. Fox news has perfected this and its starting in Ireland.

McSandwich

Wibbs wrote:

Why do you think Greenland was called that by the Vikings? Newfoundland called Vineland.

The problem with that is that the Greenland ice sheets are over 100,000 years old. If that's true, how could it have been 'green' just 1000 years ago?

http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/eismayewski.html

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/2004-09-01-ice-core-ages_x.htm

It seems that 'Eric the Red' who discovered Greenland, named it so in order to attract more settlers (sounds a bit like our property developers/ estate agents ).

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/03/greenland-used-to-be-green.html

http://www.greenoptions.com/blog/2007/04/26/green_myth_busting_greenland_was_once_green

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/medieval-warm-period-was-just-as-warm.html

I'm still loooking for something more substantial which agrees that Greenland was really green back then..

brianthebard

dlofnep wrote:

I disagree. We're not all climatologists, and so - a well laid out documentary for the average person is probably the easiest way to address the issue to people who otherwise were not aware of it.

And once again, it's another day of blistering heat here. Short-term, the sun is great - Long-term, I really question the overall effects it will have on the world, which I'm afraid will be less than positive.

Did you read the quote Celticfire provided? Imo the wider the audience you try to reach with something like a film, the more you have to dumb it down, the less content is actually meaningful. I'm not a climatologist either, but when I want to find something out I go and research it off my own back, anyone that needs A Gore walking along an oversimplified graph just isn't doing the environment or themselves justice. Also, its not very sunny here in Maynooth at all, just an average May day.

AlmightyCushion

McSandwich wrote:

Nuclear Fusion power has the potential to solve the worlds energy needs - if it can be made commercially viable - hopefully in the next 30 years..

As for Nuclear Fission, given the security and safety risks not to mention transport requirments, it could take 20 years before we're ready to produce nuclear power.

Another thing, it's near impossible to open a dump, an incinerator, or even a wind generator in Ireland without years of protests, any politician who'd accept a nuclear power in his/her constituency may as well jump off a cliff!

Considering these issues, our small population, and that Uranium prices are soaring, it would make more sense to focus on renewable power generation. We also have the option of importing nuclear power and it would ne a good idea if we got involved in ITER (the nuclear fusion research project based in France).

McSandwich when I said we I meant we as in the people of Earth and not as in the people of Ireland. Sorry probably should of made that clearer. After the disaster that is Sellafield, it'll be a cold day in hell before any politician even considers thinking about nuclear power in this country. And we actually do import nuclear power through the interconnector between Ireland and England although I think it is a very small amount.

I think it would be good if Ireland got involved in the ITER project but I can't see it happening. It's just like the CERN project. For some reason the government doesn't seem aware of these huge project that could help us learn so much about the world around us or solve some of the problems that face our society.

McSandwich

brianthebard wrote:

Did you read the quote Celticfire provided? Imo the wider the audience you try to reach with something like a film, the more you have to dumb it down, the less content is actually meaningful. I'm not a climatologist either, but when I want to find something out I go and research it off my own back, anyone that needs A Gore walking along an oversimplified graph just isn't doing the environment or themselves justice. Also, its not very sunny here in Maynooth at all, just an average May day.

It would be great if everyone had that attitude/ could be bothered to find out about things for themselves...

cournioni

Look on the bright side, we're getting a lovely red Irish tan...

McSandwich

Wibbs wrote:

That was followed by a period where rivers such as the Thames froze every winter and in one year in Britain it snowed in june.
Yes lets.

see: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19125691.100-global-warming-will-the-sun-come-to-our-rescue.html