Halal Food in Cafe Brava

InFront

Yes it's the same article, the latter one just explains it better. That Schultz paper is one of the most widely referenced on the topic of Halal slaughter methods.
It isn't definitively saying that there is no pain in Dhabiha/ Halal or Kasshrut slaughter methods, but that there is no increase in stress as indicated by the EEGs taken from the animal.

The thing that tends to worry people about Halal, and the reason why factory workers think it is cruel, is that after the slaughterman has cut the throat, the animal spasms. This is not an indication of pain, it's a natural reflex action that causes skeletal muscle to contract.
There is another article from another German Veterinary College from 2002 which came to the same conclusion with ECoGs. If I can find it I'll post it here. There is no evidence to suggest that Halal is more painful than Stunning, it is quite the opposite.

humbert

I'm not particularly bothered about it personally, if I'm to be honest, but taken from the thread in the Islam forum on the subject the point was brought up that the increased contact with the slaughterer often causes the animal a lot of stress and it may panic.

In that experiment the animal had the probes surgically implanted(eek btw) which would suggest it had a lot of contact with people during it's life and so would have been much more calm as the slaughterer acted.

Therefore I would say that the responses recorded may not truly reflect the real world event.

InFront

Yes that point about the increased contact with the slaughterman is definitely a valid one. Research would have been in a controlled environment where the animal's nervous character was factored out of any potential increase in EEG reading.

It is true that intensively farmed animals will be more nervous than other animals, and such an animal will be more stressed in Dhabiha slaughter because it requires close human contact with the animal at death.

However, so do vaccinations, TB Tests, blood tests, castrations, calvings and emasculations. The answer is not to ban all of these things, or boycott animals that have been vaccinated, but to change how animals are reared and controlled to minimize stress.
I'm no farmer, I'm not sure how economically feasible that is... I would guess very very unfeasible indeed.

Samos

How is one to know if the meat served is Hala as oppossed to "normal" meat? Surely Cafe Brava could simply serve the same stuff and call it Halal if the customer asks for it that way: an easy way to get extra business...

Also, it is my understanding that taking the life of another against their will causes inherent suffering, regardless of the cuelty of the method. So, either way the animal suffers the loss of life, as well as the additinal suffering caused by the method of slaughter.

So if the OP really cared about the suffering of animals, she would abstain from buying any products made from animals, no?

humbert

Well the animal was bred and cared for for that one purpose. Also the animal has no concept of life or death, the only suffering it feels is in the moment it realises it's going to die.

Pythia

Samos wrote:

So if the OP really cared about the suffering of animals, she would abstain from buying any products made from animals, no?

Well, I only buy organic and rarely eat meat in general. Maybe once a week.
I eat generally eat vegetables, tofu, beans, etc.
I haven't eaten meat from a fast food outlet since 1997.

Blush_01

Oh, well that makes it all ok then! :rolleyes:

Meat may be murder, but so is parking in UCD (apparently). Parking just doesn't taste as good.


Edit: I find it very hard to believe that someone who is supposedly so smart doesn't realise the animal elements in meat once a week, organic or not, not to mention clothing and shoes etc.

Samos

humbert wrote:

Also the animal has no concept of life or death, the only suffering it feels is in the moment it realises it's going to die.

Well, I think that point is up for debate, but I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. If you weigh up the potential suffering on either side: an animal losing it life versus you missing out on a tasty meal. Which one seems like the greater loss to you? Whatever concepts the animal holds or fails to have hardly seems to matter.

Pythia wrote:

Well, I only buy organic and rarely eat meat in general. Maybe once a week.
I generally eat vegetables, tofu, beans, etc.
I haven't eaten meat from a fast food outlet since 1997.

I guess that is a step in the "right" direction. We could all do a little more to reduce the amount of suffering in the world, but nobody's every going to be perfect...

yevveh

fatal wrote:

so hence the animal is still alive when its cut up....

Perhaps this has been mentioned in later posts but when surgery is performed on humans, we're unconscious (ie alive) while being cut up too. I'd say more than a few people have nightmares about surgery without anasthaesia (Delirium Cordia, anyone?) so in that light Halal does seem cruel. The arguments of not playing moral gaurdian to others and prevention of cruelty to animals get me stuck between a rock and a hard place though. I mean, if you were a fervent believer that you could only eat this type of meat, then how would you like it if someone told you you couldn't eat it because it was cruel to the animal when you've been told its the most humane method about?

sweet-rasmus

princess-sprkle wrote:

a few vegan friendly choices about would be nice too

i'm with you on this one! without resorting to chips (which i won't do) there isn't much available in UCD!

Blush_01

Fcuk it, even soya milk in Hilpers/911/the Restaurant etc would be a step in the right direction. There are virtually no vegetarian options, not to mention vegan ones.

Red Alert

in fact the quality of chips available anywhere in UCD isn't fantastic. ever since i cracked out the deep fryer and did them myself, the ones in UCD taste like muck.

panda100

Pythia wrote:

I was in Cafe Brava in the student centre today and noticed they have a Halal meal for sale.
I personally think this is most questionable as Halal food is sold in UCD as the animal welfare element is terrible. Animals suffer much more using this method of slaughter than any other.
I presume they introduced it due to demand.
AFAIK, the SU is in charge of the shops in the student centre. If Coke is banned due to tentative links with bad 'human welfare', shouldn't Halal meat also be banned?
Just wondering what other people's opinions are on this, haven't totally made my mind up on it myself.

I think Its good that someones thought of the large Muslim community in UCD. They've been selling halal options for quite a while in the terrace so its not a new phenomenon to hit UCD. I think just like the coke ban a halal ban would be totally ineffective while also isolating an already isolated bunch of students on campus,the Muslims. Its already very difficult to integrate the Islamic community into UCD that I wouldn't want to antagonize it anymore with a halal meat ban!
I didn't actually know about the inhumane slaughter of halal meat.Will not buy meat from the clonskeagh mosque again so!

princess-sprkle

Blush_01 wrote:

Fcuk it, even soya milk in Hilpers/911/the Restaurant etc would be a step in the right direction. There are virtually no vegetarian options, not to mention vegan ones.

definately, that'd be amazing. then i could have tea in college instead of black coffee. it ridic trying to find lunch, i bring mine now. Is there even one vegan option in hilpers? thats not a bottle of water like?! some of the salads look nice, but most have chicken or mayo

humbert

Lets be honest it wouldn't be practical to put on meal options for every person who chose a contrary diet, Atkins options etc. They'll appear if it's financially viable i.e. if enough people want it.

Blush_01

FYI soya milk is a very simple step, and to be frank those who drink it are not (for the most part) contrary. Lactose intolerance anybody? Allergies do exist y'know!

If they can have fair trade and non-fair trade options for coffee, I don't see why they can't offer soya as an option too.

Likewise, vegan food isn't a huge leap away from vegetarian. If they just made all the meals vegan instead of vegetarian where a vegetarian option exists, that'd solve the problem, to a large extent. The difference is not so huge (if you'll pardon the generalisation) that it would deter vegetarians from eating the meals, especially when it's effectively the same without any animal by-products such as dairy, which isn't hard to supplement yourself. It'd widen the options for people, rather than restricting them.

humbert

Well I'm not really a believer in this whole vegetarianism notion but I wouldn't object to swapping the vegie meals for vegan meals. It would be funny to see the vegetarians complain about their options being restricted by the vegans.