Should Ireland buy fighter jets?

AlmightyCushion

In an ideal world. Yes having a fleet of top of fighter jets at our disposal to defend ourselves would be brilliant. But right now we simply don't have the money. The costs simply don't outweigh the benefits.

OS119

AlmightyCushion wrote:

But right now we simply don't have the money. The costs simply don't outweigh the benefits.

you do have the money, Irelands GDP is about $126 billion US and its government income is some $62billion US. you could therefore easily afford $3 to 4 billion US in capital purchases (particularly as delivery of 40 airframes would take several years - as would the training of 80-odd Irish fast jet pilots - therefore the capital expenditure would be spread over perhaps 4 years) and $600 - 700 million US in annual costs.

you choose not to.

in my view thats a fair judgement given your geographic location and your political relations with your nearest neighbour - who by comparision is very well equipped with air defence equipment and is reasonably happy to cover your very limited needs in parallel with her own.

in future however your neighbour may want a quid pro quo for her services, may withdraw the service, or indeed may not be able to offer the service given her own vital national interests.

AlmightyCushion

At the moment our infrastructure and health service are in a terrible state so there is no way the cost could be justified. Especially like you point out that Britain is more than willing to help out. I can't see them stopping this service to us anytime in the near future but if they do.......

Boston

OS119 wrote:

in my view thats a fair judgement given your geographic location and your political relations with your nearest neighbour - who by comparision is very well equipped with air defence equipment and is reasonably happy to cover your very limited needs in parallel with her own.

in future however your neighbour may want a quid pro quo for her services, may withdraw the service, or indeed may not be able to offer the service given her own vital national interests.

If someone did take over an air liner and fly it into something here, while the brits stood by and did nothing to stop it despite being able to, there would be political and economic ramifications far outweighing the actual damage done by the plan. It's in their best interest to watch our sky.

Cake Fiend

Hagar wrote:

Cake Fiend you have only posted on this forum twice. The post above and an identical word for word, except for the picture, post on St Patrick's day.

The reason being, each time that this topic is trotted out (again and again...), my point is still valid. There seems to be a distressing number of people who would prefer that the country spend millions on things that fly and go bang than on real issues. Hell, spending more money on armour etc. for overseas troops would be a better idea than buying a load of jets that are going to sit and rust somewhere.

Guy:Incognito

AlmightyCushion wrote:

In an ideal world. Yes having a fleet of top of fighter jets at our disposal to defend ourselves would be brilliant. But right now we simply don't have the money. The costs simply don't outweigh the benefits.

Surely in an ideal world there would be no evil do-ers in the first place?

Mick86

Boston wrote:

If someone did take over an air liner and fly it into something here, while the brits stood by and did nothing to stop it despite being able to, there would be political and economic ramifications far outweighing the actual damage done by the plan. It's in their best interest to watch our sky.

I'd love to know what those economic and political ramifications might be.

BostonB

Mick86 wrote:

I'd love to know what those economic and political ramifications might be.

Very cheap RyanAir seats?

Boston

Mick86 wrote:

I'd love to know what those economic and political ramifications might be.

OK, so what do you think would happen?

you seem incapable of engaging in a little thought process, have a think about Anglo-Irish political and economic links over the last 50 or so years.

Moorzeyyy

The navigation systems and instruments inside the pc-9s is one of the most sifisticated equipment in an air craft in the world!


/ Edit Not impressed with the shouting...

BostonB

Moorzeyyy wrote:

The navigation systems and instruments inside the pc-9s is one of the most sifisticated equipment in an air craft in the world!

Oh dear.

OS119

Boston wrote:

If someone did take over an air liner and fly it into something here, while the brits stood by and did nothing to stop it despite being able to, there would be political and economic ramifications far outweighing the actual damage done by the plan. It's in their best interest to watch our sky.

its only in the UK's interests to police your airspace because you don't.

we police your airspace on your behalf out of the goodness of our hearts, if you - as a soveriegn nation - choose not to secure your own airspace despite having the cash to do so then you need to accept that the 'service' we provide will be on our terms and in our interests.

if something happens over Dublin then, assuming your ATC and government can get its act together and actually let us know, we will try to do something about it. however you should note an aspect of geography. UK AD aircraft are based in eastern England and northern Scotland - a legacy of both World War Two and the cold war - it is going to take some effort to find out there's a problem, get a ministerial order to do something about it (and deciding the ROE's in conjunction with the Irish Government) abnd then getting a Typhoon or Tornado F3 to Dublin in time to solve the problem, rather than provide a CAP for a large, smoking, hole in Dublin city centre.

as to your point, if you choose not to spend money on your own defence despite a significant threat, ask HMG to provide your defence without making a financial contribution and then whinge when that defence doesn't do what you want it to, then the response of HMG will be a good, loud 'Fcuk Off!'

the economic and political effects you allude to will all be negative. for Ireland.

no one in their right mind is going to invest in a country that makes no effort to defend itself in the face of a proven threat and then whinges when other people don't do it for them. should such a thing happen then onlookers will say how sorry they are.

and mutter "Twats" under their breath while moving elsewhere.

Judt

While I agree in principal that Ireland should be able to defend herself from all threats, I would ask where these fleets of hijacked aircraft aimed at Dublin's Fair City would happen to be? If somebody has the balls and the brains to hijack an A340 then he'll fly it the 15 minutes to Cardiff at least. Ireland's security from these threats is down the intelligence end of things, to prevent a boyo with a pipe bomb dropped into a bin in Dundrum Shopping Center.

BostonB

OS119 wrote:

its only in the UK's interests to police your airspace because you don't......however you should note an aspect of geography. UK AD aircraft are based in eastern England and northern Scotland....

So based on your own comments its not priority for the RAF either.

Boston

OS119 wrote:

its only in the UK's interests to police your airspace because you don't.

we police your airspace on your behalf out of the goodness of our hearts, if you - as a soveriegn nation - choose not to secure your own airspace despite having the cash to do so then you need to accept that the 'service' we provide will be on our terms and in our interests.

if something happens over Dublin then, assuming your ATC and government can get its act together and actually let us know, we will try to do something about it. however you should note an aspect of geography. UK AD aircraft are based in eastern England and northern Scotland - a legacy of both World War Two and the cold war - it is going to take some effort to find out there's a problem, get a ministerial order to do something about it (and deciding the ROE's in conjunction with the Irish Government) abnd then getting a Typhoon or Tornado F3 to Dublin in time to solve the problem, rather than provide a CAP for a large, smoking, hole in Dublin city centre.

as to your point, if you choose not to spend money on your own defence despite a significant threat, ask HMG to provide your defence without making a financial contribution and then whinge when that defence doesn't do what you want it to, then the response of HMG will be a good, loud 'Fcuk Off!'

the economic and political effects you allude to will all be negative. for Ireland.

no one in their right mind is going to invest in a country that makes no effort to defend itself in the face of a proven threat and then whinges when other people don't do it for them. should such a thing happen then onlookers will say how sorry they are.

and mutter "Twats" under their breath while moving elsewhere.

Well it's like this mate, if a plan is hijacked over the Irish see, they'll either head back towards Dublin or towards the west coast of England, which do you think is more likely?. So yes, it is in the brits best interest to protect our airspace. Also, I don't think it is a proven threat.

OS119

Boston wrote:

Well it's like this mate, if a plan is hijacked over the Irish see, they'll either head back towards Dublin or towards the west coast of England, which do you think is more likely?. So yes, it is in the brits best interest to protect our airspace. Also, I don't think it is a proven threat.

which is why we police our skies. until its on our airspace - and therefore able to hit a UK target - then its not our problem.

if it does come into UK airspace we can shoot it down. you don't have that luxury.

you also completely ignore the deterent inherent in having such a capability. a person hijacking an aircraft in UK airspace knows there is a significant chance of the Aircraft being shot down and therefore instead of ending his his life in a ball of holy flame that engulfs whatever prestigous target he's chosen, he may well end his life in a muddy field in suffolk having achieved SFA.

indeed in the most extreme example that you alude to, if a wannabe suicide hijacker is over the Irish Sea with a pair of Typhoons to his East and nothing to his west, then its somewhat unlikely he'll opt for Cardiff as a target.

Boston

OS119 wrote:

which is why we police our skies. until its on our airspace - and therefore able to hit a UK target - then its not our problem.

if it does come into UK airspace we can shoot it down. you don't have that luxury.

you also completely ignore the deterent inherent in having such a capability. a person hijacking an aircraft in UK airspace knows there is a significant chance of the Aircraft being shot down and therefore instead of ending his his life in a ball of holy flame that engulfs whatever prestigous target he's chosen, he may well end his life in a muddy field in suffolk having achieved SFA.

indeed in the most extreme example that you alude to, if a wannabe suicide hijacker is over the Irish Sea with a pair of Typhoons to his East and nothing to his west, then its somewhat unlikely he'll opt for Cardiff as a target.

But you just said theres a problem with getting Jets there in time? The see aint exactly huge. Would it not be better to stop a hijacked plan before it reached your air space? Raf do provide support and I don't believe for a second they do so out of the kindness of their hearts, they do it, because we're in your back yard.

Zambia

Ireland could of course spend some cash and have a very basic Air defence. Personnally I think its a little embrassing to not be able to defend against a civilian airliner. While I agree the money could be spent elsewhere , if we where hit by this type of attack in the future. The first thing we would do afterwards is buy a fighter jet.

Plus if we didnt need fighters why did we buy those Fuego things when there was no one prepared to attack us?

Boston

Zambia232 wrote:

Ireland could of course spend some cash and have a very basic Air defence. Personnally I think its a little embrassing to not be able to defend against a civilian airliner. While I agree the money could be spent elsewhere , if we where hit by this type of attack in the future.

But oddly enough you're not embarassed at the state of the health system. OS119 talks about billions in capital lay out and hundreds of million in maintainance and support per year for a basic fleet. I don't think we even spend that type of money on our entire armed forces. How much is your embrassment worth?

The first thing we would do afterwards is buy a fighter jet.

Just the one like? Have you been paying attension.

Plus if we didnt need fighters why did we buy those Fuego things when there was no one prepared to attack us?

And what have they been doing?

Mick86

Boston wrote:

OK, so what do you think would happen?

you seem incapable of engaging in a little thought process, have a think about Anglo-Irish political and economic links over the last 50 or so years.

Ooh an insult at this early stage.

Lets see, for most of the past century Anglo-Irish relations have consisted of us slaughtering their soldiers, policemen and civilians. As soon as we kicked the British administration out of most of the country, we got on the boat and followed the withdrawing troops to nick their jobs before demobilisation. Then instead of being a grown up country about defending ourselves we decided we were the most peaceful people on earth. Everybody loves us so we don't need credible defence and should the sh1t hit the fan it's the duty no less of the British to defend us.

The above is in response to the craven idea that the Brits owe us any favours by the way. Jet fighters should, in my opinion, be way down our military shopping list.

Zambia

Boston wrote:

But oddly enough you're not embarassed at the state of the health system. OS119 talks about billions in capital lay out and hundreds of million in maintainance and support per year for a basic fleet. I don't think we even spend that type of money on our entire armed forces. How much is your embrassment worth?

OS119 also outlines how the state can afford it. Tell you what since you take the attitude that since Ireland is never going to be threatened and the UK will always be there to defend us as it in there economic interests.

Lets scrape the defence forces altogether as we can always run to the UK for support.

Im not saying we go out and buy a top of the range fleet of fighters but at least have something we can send up to ward of intruders or errant drug aircraft.

"This is Shannon airport control to al queda 69 , you are an unscheduled flight you do not have permisson to enter our airspace"

"Al queda 69 you must leave our airspace over"

"Al queda 69 I repeat you must please leave our airspace .... pretty please"

Boston

Mick86 wrote:

Ooh an insult at this early stage.

Lets see, for most of the past century Anglo-Irish relations have consisted of us slaughtering their soldiers, policemen and civilians. As soon as we kicked the British administration out of most of the country, we got on the boat and followed the withdrawing troops to nick their jobs before demobilisation. Then instead of being a grown up country about defending ourselves we decided we were the most peaceful people on earth. Everybody loves us so we don't need credible defence and should the sh1t hit the fan it's the duty no less of the British to defend us.

The above is in response to the craven idea that the Brits owe us any favours by the way. Jet fighters should, in my opinion, be way down our military shopping list.

I lol'ed hard, nah the brits don't owe us anything, where did you get the impression I'm saying that. It is, however, in there interests to protect our air space, if it wasn't, they wouldn't be doing it.

Zambia232 wrote:

OS119 also outlines how the state can afford it. Tell you what since you take the attitude that since Ireland is never going to be threatened and the UK will always be there to defend us as it in there economic interests.

Never threatened? Where did I say that. Afford, hmm, there isn't a lot of extra money not already allocated.

Lets scrape the defence forces altogether as we can always run to the UK for support.

Can't have an air force, so lets scrap everything, how mature of you. The navy and army serve a clear purpose, regardless of any threat.

Im not saying we go out and buy a top of the range fleet of fighters but at least have something we can send up to ward of intruders or errant drug aircraft.

Well OS119 outlined basic costs. It runs into billions, there's no denying that, regardless of how much you talk about buying cheap stock. Also, drug plans? are you taking the piss. how would one detect the slow moving low flying plans anyway? Boat is far more likely.

"This is Shannon airport control to al queda 69 , you are an unscheduled flight you do not have permisson to enter our airspace"

"Al queda 69 you must leave our airspace over"

"Al queda 69 I repeat you must please leave our airspace .... pretty please"

Grand, wipe out a terminal or control tower at Shannon, still cheaper to replace then the alternative.

Mick86

Boston wrote:

I lol'ed hard, nah the brits don't owe us anything, where did you get the impression I'm saying that.

From your original post. I'm still agog to hear what the ramifications for Britain will be should they fail to defend Ireland. If we fail to provide for our own defence the entire world would just laugh. I cannot see anybody criticising Britain.

Boston wrote:

It is, however, in there interests to protect our air space, if it wasn't, they wouldn't be doing it.

Hang on, yes I just looked out my window and thank the Lord a flight of RAF fighters is patrolling the skies of Tipperary. The RAF will protect UK airspace from attack from Ireland. That might involve engaging a plane in Irish airspace but thats not quite the same thing as protecting Ireland's airspace from attack from anywhere.

Zambia

Boston of course it would cost billions , but if you willing to live without an air defence option at all thats the alternative.

However the UK probably would help out the Republic however its not a good state of affairs they have to.

jmayo

Why oh why do people think that Al Queada have nothing else on their minds but how to attack Ireland (Rep of that is)?

Everytime one of these threads appears the reason for buying fighter jets is trotted out as protection of our airspace against the big baddies, Al Queda. Do you think that if someone hijacks an aircraft they will do it half way across the Atlantic and then announce it so that air defence has time to mobilise?

Hijacking aircraft has gotten harder, it has been difficult in Europe since 1970s and 1980s due to all the middle east related hijackings, but US has only began to up security on internal flights since 2001.
As regards shoe bombers and bringing liquid explosives, etc on board they would probably be detonated immediately rather than used as means of taking aircraft or controlling hostages during hijack and no fighter that I know of can stop wreckage falling.

People are always talking up our importance as a possible target.
We are not that important in the grand scheme of things but some people don't seem to realise that.
Besides what great big symbol of imperialism would the hijacked aircraft be aimed at?
The tallest building is owned by unions I think?

Zambia

Boston wrote:

Can't have an air force, so lets scrap everything, how mature of you. The navy and army serve a clear purpose, regardless of any threat.

Yes the navy defend Irish Waters
The army Defend Irish soil
The Air force defend Irish Airspace

If you want to hand the last one over to the UK I dont see why you just dont hand over all military duties to the Uk. In principle its the same thing.

I get you dont want fighters and you make a good agrument on cost. The UK aspect of your agrument is flawed.

Zambia

jmayo wrote:

Why oh why do people think that Al Queada have nothing else on their minds but how to attack Ireland (Rep of that is)?

Everytime one of these threads appears the reason for buying fighter jets is trotted out as protection of our airspace against the big baddies, Al Queda. Do you think that if someone hijacks an aircraft they will do it half way across the Atlantic and then announce it so that air defence has time to mobilise?

Hijacking aircraft has gotten harder, it has been difficult in Europe since 1970s and 1980s due to all the middle east related hijackings, but US has only began to up security on internal flights since 2001.
As regards shoe bombers and bringing liquid explosives, etc on board they would probably be detonated immediately rather than used as means of taking aircraft or controlling hostages during hijack and no fighter that I know of can stop wreckage falling.

People are always talking up our importance as a possible target.
We are not that important in the grand scheme of things but some people don't seem to realise that.
Besides what great big symbol of imperialism would the hijacked aircraft be aimed at?
The tallest building is owned by unions I think?

My apologies for using the name Al Queda (I agree they probably wont) , but the piont still stands wether it a hijacked plane or anything in our airspace.

OS119

Boston wrote:

But you just said theres a problem with getting Jets there in time? The see aint exactly huge. Would it not be better to stop a hijacked plan before it reached your air space? Raf do provide support and I don't believe for a second they do so out of the kindness of their hearts, they do it, because we're in your back yard.

we are aware of what is going on in your airspace, in the same way we are aware of whats going on in French, Dutch, Belian, Spanish, Portugese, German, Danish and Norwegian airspace because knowing whats happening gives us more time to react to potential threats against our own territory.

we will, if possible, assist where we can - in the same way we would do for any other EU/NATO state - but without a formal defence agreement, and such things are not one-way streets - we cannot either promise to defend your skies, or spend our own money on addressing the geography question to make interceptions over Dublin easier and quicker.

were there to be a formal defence agreement over AD then perhaps we might consider basing Typhoons in a location where interceptions over both Dublin and London were easier, but until then current sites in the east of England are acceptable in flying time terms for London's AD security.

we actually have an AD agreement with the French, the St.Malo agreement, which provides for integrated AD and policing, so that if an aircraft became sucpicious over, say, Kent, its quite likely that the first AC on scene would be a French fighter with exactly the same ROE and authorisation as an RAF crew, perhaps he would be controled by a French AWACS and refueled by a British tanker - or indeed an RAF Typhoon might intercept an errant AC over Normandy under RAF AWACS control.

a reasonable AD set-up would probably mean RoI investing in military AirSearch radars to create an Air Defence Ground Environment, both the RoI and UK ADGE's would report to a central command facility which would then direct RAF interceptors as needed. Senior Irish representation would required to provide immediate authorisation for intercepts over Irish airspace, and the big cash spend would be a new fighter station, possibly around Bristol, that could respond to threats to both London and Dublin in the way that the current RAF stations resond to threats to london and the rest of the UK.

and that is going to cost a fortune, and as its primarily for your benefit, guess who's going to get the bill...

cold_filter

OS119 wrote:

we are aware of what is going on in your airspace, in the same way we are aware of whats going on in French, Dutch, Belian, Spanish, Portugese, German, Danish and Norwegian airspace because knowing whats happening gives us more time to react to potential threats against our own territory.

we will, if possible, assist where we can - in the same way we would do for any other EU/NATO state - but without a formal defence agreement, and such things are not one-way streets - we cannot either promise to defend your skies, or spend our own money on addressing the geography question to make interceptions over Dublin easier and quicker.

were there to be a formal defence agreement over AD then perhaps we might consider basing Typhoons in a location where interceptions over both Dublin and London were easier, but until then current sites in the east of England are acceptable in flying time terms for London's AD security.

we actually have an AD agreement with the French, the St.Malo agreement, which provides for integrated AD and policing, so that if an aircraft became sucpicious over, say, Kent, its quite likely that the first AC on scene would be a French fighter with exactly the same ROE and authorisation as an RAF crew, perhaps he would be controled by a French AWACS and refueled by a British tanker - or indeed an RAF Typhoon might intercept an errant AC over Normandy under RAF AWACS control.

a reasonable AD set-up would probably mean RoI investing in military AirSearch radars to create an Air Defence Ground Environment, both the RoI and UK ADGE's would report to a central command facility which would then direct RAF interceptors as needed. Senior Irish representation would required to provide immediate authorisation for intercepts over Irish airspace, and the big cash spend would be a new fighter station, possibly around Bristol, that could respond to threats to both London and Dublin in the way that the current RAF stations resond to threats to london and the rest of the UK.

and that is going to cost a fortune, and as its primarily for your benefit, guess who's going to get the bill...

Well said. As the started of this thread it has made a great read. With good arguments for and against. I think the idea above of having british radar stationed along the west coast of ireland and maybe some SAM sites too along with a guarantee of RAF help and use of irish facilities if the need arises for refuelling/rearmament would be a good option

Judt

How many aircraft have been hijacked and flown into buildings since 9/11, worldwide? How many aircraft have been hijacked, for that matter?

Versus, how many bombs have been set off in the good old fashioned way? If Ireland needs to spend money on defence, as I say, it's down the intelligence end of the market. A Eurofighter can't shoot a suicide bomber on the 0711 train to connolly.