Golf 1.4 TSI 140 BHP - Opinions?

HashSlinging

Thats funny, if they are taking in power to weight and BHP they shouldnt be considering it a performance car if it has a 10 bhp increase, driving down a hill also makes your car go faster.

alias no.9

If an engine has been remapped and something goes wrong that could be in someway related to the remap, the manufacturer will void the warranty. It's easy to say it's only a software modification but what does this control? Let's do a quick brain storm, to get more power on a supercharged and turbo charged car, what might you do?

* Increase Fueling - this is the simplest way and probably the way most cowboys use but whis will coke up your enging and if unburnt fuel gets through to the catalytic converter, it will destroy the catalyst.
* Increase Boost Pressure - a common trick with forced induction, there is a margin of safety because it's needed but how much? Whos engine gets tested to destruction trying to figure this out?
* Running the Supercharger and Turbo Charger together - the supercharger is supposed to operate at low revs until the turbo is spinning fast enough to be effective, running them together is going to be too tempting for some dodgy operators, but you won't catch them doing it on their own motors.

Any of the above will most likely lead to a greater amount of heat being generated, is the cooling system capable of dealing with this? Is the radiator big enough? Is the cooling fan powerful enough? Can the head gasket take it?

What about the extra power in the cylinder, can the piston rings contain all the combustion gasses? Will you get more contamination of the engine oil than normal? Will the extra shear forces reduce the useful life of your oil? Does engine wear increase? VW petrols are notorious for gumming up the throttle body because the sump breather connects into the air intake just before the throttle, if there's gasses getting past the piston rings, they've gotta come out somewhere.

What about the brakes? Will they be upgraded? You need a lot more stopping power as the power goes up. No warranty will cover the repairs you'll need if you hit a tree (presuming you're lucky enough not to hit some innocent third party), nor will an insurance company if you've got undeclared mods.

What about suspension? Uprated springs and dampers? Thicker ARB's maybe?

It's very easy to say that you can get an extra 50bhp from a remap for €500. Anybody who offers this kind of service is a cowboy. The reason I say this is that there'll need to be another €1000 spent on brakes and suspension to make sure the chassis can cope with the extra power. So when one of these folks tells you it "shouldn't void your warranty", do you believe them? Do you believe a cowboy?

HashSlinging

What happens if you buy a second hand car and its already been remapped and the garage that sold to you didnt know about the remap.

alias no.9

copacetic wrote:

this is hard to believe since tuning the non turbo 1.6 only gets you 10 extra bhp or so? hard to believe they won't insure a 115bhp car?

HashSlinging wrote:

Thats funny, if they are taking in power to weight and BHP they shouldnt be considering it a performance car if it has a 10 bhp increase, driving down a hill also makes your car go faster.

I believe Quinn Directs definition of a performance car is anything >110bhp, so the remap pushes it just over the limit. Other companies use different criteria, for example Allianz classify anything capable of 0 - 100km/h in <10 seconds as a perfromance car and will not quote anybody under 30 years of age on such a car.

Henry Ford III

HashSlinging wrote:

What happens if you buy a second hand car and its already been remapped and the garage that sold to you didnt know about the remap.

They'd be liable, although in the event of a warranty dispute between a motorist and a dealer/manufacturer, the motorist would need to show the offending remap was done prior to his/her taking ownership.

A dealer should easily know if any car has been tinkered with. His plug in laptop should tell him all about it.

copacetic

for anyone who is interested the new trim for the GT (140 and 170) is



looks better imo, and the 140 is pretty tempting for the price with the much nicer trim and look than the current std look tsi sport.

alias no.9

alias no.9 wrote:

If an engine has been remapped and something goes wrong that could be in someway related to the remap, the manufacturer will void the warranty. It's easy to say it's only a software modification but what does this control? Let's do a quick brain storm, to get more power on a supercharged and turbo charged car, what might you do?

* Increase Fueling - this is the simplest way and probably the way most cowboys use but whis will coke up your enging and if unburnt fuel gets through to the catalytic converter, it will destroy the catalyst.
* Increase Boost Pressure - a common trick with forced induction, there is a margin of safety because it's needed but how much? Whos engine gets tested to destruction trying to figure this out?
* Running the Supercharger and Turbo Charger together - the supercharger is supposed to operate at low revs until the turbo is spinning fast enough to be effective, running them together is going to be too tempting for some dodgy operators, but you won't catch them doing it on their own motors.

Any of the above will most likely lead to a greater amount of heat being generated, is the cooling system capable of dealing with this? Is the radiator big enough? Is the cooling fan powerful enough? Can the head gasket take it?

What about the extra power in the cylinder, can the piston rings contain all the combustion gasses? Will you get more contamination of the engine oil than normal? Will the extra shear forces reduce the useful life of your oil? Does engine wear increase? VW petrols are notorious for gumming up the throttle body because the sump breather connects into the air intake just before the throttle, if there's gasses getting past the piston rings, they've gotta come out somewhere.

What about the brakes? Will they be upgraded? You need a lot more stopping power as the power goes up. No warranty will cover the repairs you'll need if you hit a tree (presuming you're lucky enough not to hit some innocent third party), nor will an insurance company if you've got undeclared mods.

What about suspension? Uprated springs and dampers? Thicker ARB's maybe?

It's very easy to say that you can get an extra 50bhp from a remap for €500. Anybody who offers this kind of service is a cowboy. The reason I say this is that there'll need to be another €1000 spent on brakes and suspension to make sure the chassis can cope with the extra power. So when one of these folks tells you it "shouldn't void your warranty", do you believe them? Do you believe a cowboy?

Most maps would do one and two of your points. There is little point increasing boost if the engine just runs lean. Increasing the boost as you said creates extra heat and wear on the turbos.

As for running supercharger and turbo together I'm not sure if that would work. I assume the way they have the GT setup the supercharger is at its peak output just as the tubo kicks in. Running them both together may even cut performance.

daRobot

Isn't it possible though, that the only difference between a 140 and 170 gt is vw's own remap?

OKenora

Yes darobot that is a possibility but it's more likely that there are some component changes as well. With a new map (which with different components is a necessity) and the different components it gets the extra power.

Re-mapping your car DOES invalidate your dealer warranty if the re-map is shown by the dealer/manafacturer to be a direct cause or contributory factor to the failure.......BUT......most warranty claims never see the car go beyond dealer level it is unlikely that a warranty claim is refused because of a re-map as the dealer simply is not likely or in a lot of cases not capable of checking for a re-map. If the dealer knew the failure was simply not possible on a standard map there may be further investigation. If a component failed on a re-mapped car (presuming a proper pro re-map on a car thats not having it's nuts revved off 24/7) then it's highly likely the component was weak already and would have failed anyway simply at a slightly higher mileage. A proper re-map should not cause these issues anyway.

Re-mapping your car and not telling your insurance company is illegal and invalidates your insurance.

Re-mapping and doing nothing else to the car like uprating brakes, suspension and possibly cooling is just plain stupidity by the owner.

turbo

theres a new GT coming out here in August, its only a bit different to the current model....140 GT SPort or the 170 GT Sport

We've a 140 GT Sport with DSG ordered, should be fun

EDIT: just seen copacetic's pic!!

copacetic

turbo wrote:

theres a new GT coming out here in August, its only a bit different to the current model....140 GT SPort or the 170 GT Sport

We've a 140 GT Sport with DSG ordered, should be fun

EDIT: just seen copacetic's pic!!

the 140 is significantly different and the fact it goes from just
being a 'sport' to the GT sport with all the trim etc makes
it seem good value. how much did it cost out of interest?

I understand the only external difference is that the 140 doesn't
have the dual exhaust?

mad m

I was in talking to a rep in one of the VW dealers. He was certain a different type Gt was coming out soon with 1.4Litre and it was 122bhp. Anyone hear of this? He said it was pretty much the same as the Gt but nicer grill on front and trims plus it would prob be in or around the same price as a 1.6 golf.

copacetic

he must have been getting mixed up with the TSI sport being rebadged as the GT sport with 140bhp as pictured and mentioned above?

Henry Ford III

OKenora wrote:

Yes darobot that is a possibility but it's more likely that there are some component changes as well. With a new map (which with different components is a necessity) and the different components it gets the extra power.

Re-mapping your car DOES invalidate your dealer warranty if the re-map is shown by the dealer/manafacturer to be a direct cause or contributory factor to the failure.......BUT......most warranty claims never see the car go beyond dealer level it is unlikely that a warranty claim is refused because of a re-map as the dealer simply is not likely or in a lot of cases not capable of checking for a re-map. If the dealer knew the failure was simply not possible on a standard map there may be further investigation. If a component failed on a re-mapped car (presuming a proper pro re-map on a car thats not having it's nuts revved off 24/7) then it's highly likely the component was weak already and would have failed anyway simply at a slightly higher mileage. A proper re-map should not cause these issues anyway.

Re-mapping your car and not telling your insurance company is illegal and invalidates your insurance.

Re-mapping and doing nothing else to the car like uprating brakes, suspension and possibly cooling is just plain stupidity by the owner.

A dealer's plug in diagnostic computer would surely pick up ECU and other mods in seconds?

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote:

A dealer's plug in diagnostic computer would surely pick up ECU and other mods in seconds?

Many maps only alter the values stored in the ECU. These values are changed by the ECU itself to optimise it for different fuels, temperatures altitudes etc etc.

Some maps would be undetectable without serious digging.

cyborg

mad m wrote:

I was in talking to a rep in one of the VW dealers. He was certain a different type Gt was coming out soon with 1.4Litre and it was 122bhp. Anyone hear of this? He said it was pretty much the same as the Gt but nicer grill on front and trims plus it would prob be in or around the same price as a 1.6 golf.

this is true, it will be a 1.4 with only a turbo pushing 122bhp. supposed to be a direct replacement for the 1.6FSI. Could be a good seller if it is priced right.

bazz26

cyborg wrote:

this is true, it will be a 1.4 with only a turbo pushing 122bhp. supposed to be a direct replacement for the 1.6FSI. Could be a good seller if it is priced right.

Are you sure it is replacing the 1.6 FSi? I would have thought that it would make more sense to replace that old 1.6 litre 8 valve unit from the early 1990s they still sell today.

turbo

copacetic wrote:

the 140 is significantly different and the fact it goes from just
being a 'sport' to the GT sport with all the trim etc makes
it seem good value. how much did it cost out of interest?

I understand the only external difference is that the 140 doesn't
have the dual exhaust?

not too sure on the price as i didnt order it,just choose it
it probaly comes in at about 30G's????

Not sure on the exhaust either, was hoping it had dual exhuast:o

copacetic

turbo wrote:

not too sure on the price as i didnt order it,just choose it
it probaly comes in at about 30G's????

Not sure on the exhaust either, was hoping it had dual exhuast:o

I think a fair bit under that for the 140, but not sure. the 170 was 30 before the revamp I think.

not sure on the exhaust either but read somewhere that was the only way to tell the 170 from the 140..

I really like the sound of this engine and have been hoping audi would put it in the A3 as reported last
xmas in the indo but that doesn't seem to be happening.

turbo

copacetic wrote:

I think a fair bit under that for the 140, but not sure. the 170 was 30 before the revamp I think.

not sure on the exhaust either but read somewhere that was the only way to tell the 170 from the 140..

I really like the sound of this engine and have been hoping audi would put it in the A3 as reported last
xmas in the indo but that doesn't seem to be happening.

with DSG and a few other extras it could be closer to 30 ??

I'll find out the price later

cyborg

bazz26 wrote:

Are you sure it is replacing the 1.6 FSi? I would have thought that it would make more sense to replace that old 1.6 litre 8 valve unit from the early 1990s they still sell today.

Yes it does make more sense to replace the old 8 valver but this being ireland they just love selling us the most outdated basic spec cars that they wouldn't dare sell in the uk.
just like the new mondeo which is available here with a 110 bhp 1.6, while the UK version has 125bhp. The 125bhp version isn't even an option here!

wet-paint

Just an aside question - let's say that your car is damaged by the remap, manufacturers refuse to pay out, a lot of remappers will have their own warranty covering damage done by their work, right?

Henry Ford III

wet-paint wrote:

Just an aside question - let's say that your car is damaged by the remap, manufacturers refuse to pay out, a lot of remappers will have their own warranty covering damage done by their work, right?

I doubt it.

Henry Ford III

cyborg wrote:

Yes it does make more sense to replace the old 8 valver but this being ireland they just love selling us the most outdated basic spec cars that they wouldn't dare sell in the uk.
just like the new mondeo which is available here with a 110 bhp 1.6, while the UK version has 125bhp. The 125bhp version isn't even an option here!

I agree, this is madness. The engine is the same btw. ECU etc. is altered.

A 125bhp 1.6 would have suited Irish conditions perfectly. Low(er) VRT, tax, insurance etc.

I think a "special order" 125bhp may be possible btw.

E92

Presumably the 1.4 TSI(which should really be a TFSI since theres no twincharger) with 122 bhp will kill the 2 birds with one stone ie get rid of the old tech 8 valver which is I believe 13 years old this year, and is most definately the replacement for the existing 1.6 FSI. Maybe we will see the introduction of a 1.4 FSI Golf here(which has 90 bhp), it does seem strange that there would be suchg a gap assuming they are getting rid of the 8 Valve 1.6 too in the range. 1.4 is 75 bhp, and 1.4 TSI is 122, 140 or 170 bhp.
On the other hand there will be new VRT rates soon, so the current ridiculous sitaution of saving tax because of engine size will be a thing of the past, because the new system is supposed to be a CO2 emissions based one(which would mean a massive surge in people swityching to the black pump, we could even see the situation wher a diesel is cheaper to buy outright than a petrol in this country and everywhere else in Europe the opposite would be the case). So maybe VW wont bother getting rid of it.

As for the Mondeo, its absolute madness that the most suited engine for the Irish market(the 123 bhp 1.6) isn't available. What were Ford thinking when they came up with that decision? They offer the 2.5 T, which if they are lucky will hit double figures in terms of sales, yet an engine which has the potential to be the best seller here won't be sold.

Henry Ford III

They'll sell plenty of 2522cc Mondeo's. Mainly on account of the performance at a reasonable price.

I've run one (Focus ST) and they are great, but are not cheap to own.

.Longshanks.

I was out for a spin in a 170 bhp version over the weekend and was very impressed. It has some serious pace with all the usual characteristics of a Golf. Was fun watching the boost guage bounce left to right on the short run i had:D . The 170 bhp comes with 17" wheels & chrome twin exhausts and really looks the part - more so than some of the other pictures on the net. Dealer reckons he's getting about 30 mpg in town with a heavy foot - in 6th gear cruising he reckons it would creap up towards 40 mpg. The 140bhp is about €26k with the 170bhp €30.5k OTR.

Heres a question - would you go for one now (6 - 8 week waiting / delivery time if prefered spec not in stock) or hold off until the new year? Isn't the Mark VI out in 2008? Or its it more likely to be very late '08 to generate sales of '09's??

copacetic wrote:

for anyone who is interested the new trim for the GT (140 and 170) is



looks better imo, and the 140 is pretty tempting for the price with the much nicer trim and look than the current std look tsi sport.

The current 140 isn't even badged a GT and has smaller alloys wheels and no chrome twin exhausts. That new trim looks sweet.

LegacyUser

Will there be that much of a performance difference between the 140 and the 170???

.Longshanks.

cheesedude wrote:

Will there be that much of a performance difference between the 140 and the 170???

......i'd say about 30 bhp:p
Seriously thou, i was only in the 170 version - there was no 140 available when i was in.

drdre

cheesedude wrote:

Will there be that much of a performance difference between the 140 and the 170???

Yes i have been in both 140 and 170bhp.I felt theres a difference in the 140-170bhp.The 170 felt more pokey and more fun the drive.