How far is too far to be from a toddler?

Ickle Magoo

I am a parent & would never, ever leave my kids in a hotel room so I can go for dinner or drinks without them - it just wouldn't even cross my mind to do it. There are so many awful things that could happen to my kids that I worry about all the time. Remote or not I would not leave them any more vulnerable than they already are by leaving them alone in a locked appartment (hazards of falling, choking, fire, etc) - or leaving the way clear for all manner of wierdo's by leaving the door open.

What other parents do & how they chose to parent their kids is up to them - they are the ones that have to live with the consequences. I couldn't live with myself if something happened to my children & I was there, if I had left them to fend for themselves & something happened then I don't know what I'd do.

How far is too far? If I can't hear them when they call then I'm too far. If I can't run to them in a matter of seconds then I'm too far. If I'm not between them & an open door then I'm too far. If I don't lock the door & stay inside with them in case the door needs to be opened, then I'm too far, etc, etc, etc...

Oryx

I also would never go out of earshot of my kids (4 and 1). They are still too young to be left alone for any length of time, not only because of abduction, (a very rare occurence) but because of all the reasons of safety and caregiving talked about here already. When I took them on holiday, we ate out with them and had drinks at our apartment, I wouldnt leave them even with a sitter, in a foreign country.


That said, bad parenting happens, whether through a lack of thought or deliberate neglect. In hindsight the McCanns were not being careful enough, no, but a sick and twisted person took their child. They didnt expect it and thought they were doing enough to mind their children. Sometimes we make stupid mistakes and get away with them, they didnt.

I only hope they get her back.

parsi

The Telegraph had an aerial shot showing the distances and it looks significant especially as their apartment was at the rear of the block.

Deliverance

Personally and this is no judgement on the parents, I have my little one (21mnths) in eyeshot in public all the time.

At home I have her within earshot, if there is silence for a little while when she is playing, intently focused on a toy, usually in another room, then I'm up and in, quietly checking to see that she is ok and not getting into trouble ie: choking etc.
When she is sleeping all doors are open and I sleep lightly, if she cries at night I'm up.

When you have kids everything becomes dangerous and as a parent you have to realise that.

I really hope this little girl is safe and is found, my heart goes out to the parents.

Deliverance

daiixi wrote:

Yes, when we were very young. As for the waking up screaming from a nightmare, who knows - my parents aren't exactly on hand for me to interregate them. But to be perfectly honest with you I think parents wrap their kids up in cotton wool way too much these days. Let the kid cry and learn that there won't always be someone on hand to soothe the bad things away.

Things today are much more dangerous for kids, I would prefer my child to be wrapped in cotton wool in the early years to protect her from any harm. when she can stand on her own two feet I will take the 'cotton wool' off.

Letting the 'kid' cry at this early age is not teaching them anything as they are to young to understand and are still developing emotionally, Mom or Dad coming in to comfort them when they are frightened and feel alone and scared after a nightmare is a good thing for them.

If one individual has had a tough life that does not mean it is a lesson that needs to be transferred onto anothers by experience in my view. I think other dangerous philosophies in the extreme are undertaken by more dangerous members of society whom I won't mention.

But those that understand as responsible parents will understand. Protect your kids wrap them in 'cotton wool' and except that they are your life, if you don't do this then your gambling with their futures

metrovelvet

A friend of my father's had his toddler for the weekend. He was bathing her one saturday evening. The phone rang and he went to answer it. Talked for two minutes and came back to the bath to find his daughter dead.

It only takes a minute.

Oryx

metrovelvet, thats awful, the second one mentioned in this thread. I was bathing my daughter lately, and as she played she stood up and slipped. I caught her before her head hit the water, and she was taking a big gasp with fright. If I had been out of the room for that split second shed be gone. Showed me how easy it can happen.

Nevyn

All it takes to drown is a egg cup full of water.
This can happen when a child is drinking never mind in a bath or arround a body of water.

Madge

I haven't got kids but if I did I certainly wouldn't leave them alone unattended until they were older. Imagine a 3 year old child all alone crying in their room and the parents just ignore him / her. Thats child abuse. I agree totally with everything Izzy Wizzy has said.

dame

The reports today are that there are three main suspects identified, a woman and two men. The best news is that they have CCTV footage of these people with a little girl resembling Madaleine, at a filling station in the Algarve after she went missing. They think the car was British-registered. Hopefully this is something concrete and they can track these people down and find the little girl.

Praying for Madeleine and her family.

Deliverance

Likewise, I'm hoping that this little girl is found safe and well eventually.

emzy

i cant belive that they left there children alone while they went for a lovely meal!!!!
what happened shouldnt happen to anyone but what do they expect when they leave children alone! esp 3 kids under the age of 3!i am soo angry over this i have a 2 yr old son and there is no way i would even go next door for a pint of milk while he was in bed!this is the type of sacrifices made when you have children!
i feel terrible sorry for what these parents are going through and i hope they are reunited very soon, but i also hope somthing is going to be done about them neglecting there children. people may think neglect is a strong word they may have provided emotionaly etc but leaving 3 children under 3 to go across the road for a meal in a forign country is NEGLECT!

greine

I agree with you emzy! I cannot fathom why those parents would leave 3 children that young alone. It's just crazy and so selfish on their part, that neither one of them were happy to sit in with their own kids and give the night a skip, or take it in turns. That poor little girl, paying the ultimate price for downright parental neglect.

And I am tired of hearing that Oh, how could we anticipate someting like this happening. If they were grown ups in the room I doubt there would have been a break in, it's so sad.

dame

I don't think the parents should be charged or punished. They obviously know it wasn't wise.

Besides, there are lenty of sickos out there and I wouldn't want to give any of them any justification for their behaviour. I'd hate to think they'd tell themselves it was all the parents fault so any child who is out of their parents sight is fair game.

Yes, the parents should have had their children with them or hired a minder, but the person or persons who took her are the culprits. There is absolutely no doubt about that. They are the ones who should be punished. They are worse than scum. May they never see the light of day again after they are caught.

Jotter

Just heard very scary story on tvam yesterday where an irish family were in lanzorote a few years ago and their apt was broken into. The parents were asleep in bed, the 4 kids (one a 2 yr old girl) was in the next room.
The mother woke from a draught and discovered the patio door open (lock picked) a bag containing her daughters clothes on a bed, her husbands passpot gone (the 2 yr old was on his passport) and a pile of clothes on the floor bec whoever broke in had changed into her husbands clothes for some reason. She said the complex said it was just a break in but her husband and her saw it as an abduction attempt on their daughter given that it was only her stuff that was touched. Very scary to think someone would be that cheeky to try steal a child from under your nose.

metrovelvet

Does anyone know what the motives are for these abductors? What do they do with the children?

Just want to add that most child abduction is by a family member but in these more extreme cases where its not anger over a bitter custody dispute what is going on?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/11/EDG305HISM1.DTL

Nevyn

Unknown as of yet.

karen3212

Like others above I too hope their little girl if found safe and well.

I also think that just because feels safe dosen't mean it is. These places are set up for families and they were given a listening device which seems to have made them feel safe about leaving their kids alone. Wasn't safe though, just felt safe.

I also heard a very sad story about an acquaintance of ours, he was looking after his baby twins. He left one on the bed for about a minute while he was changing the other(in the same room), and engrossed didn't see the other one crawling to the side of the bed. His little baby fell out, broke it's neck and died. I couldn't believe it, he'd just lost his concentration for a minute and tradgedy.

I feel so sorry for the parents, they must be suffering terribly and I imagine punishing themselves with guilt.

kelle

emzy wrote:

i cant belive that they left there children alone while they went for a lovely meal!!!!
what happened shouldnt happen to anyone but what do they expect when they leave children alone! esp 3 kids under the age of 3!i am soo angry over this i have a 2 yr old son and there is no way i would even go next door for a pint of milk while he was in bed!this is the type of sacrifices made when you have children!
i feel terrible sorry for what these parents are going through and i hope they are reunited very soon, but i also hope somthing is going to be done about them neglecting there children. people may think neglect is a strong word they may have provided emotionaly etc but leaving 3 children under 3 to go across the road for a meal in a forign country is NEGLECT!

I'm sure if they knew there were convicted sex attackers living nearby, they might have thought twice. This information only came about during her search!
I'd say the reason they didn't get a babysitter was because they were afraid to leave somebody whose background they didn't know in charge of their precious children, never realising there was somebody worse lurking around. Ironic, I know.
I'd never have done what they did, but I have often gone out to the clothes line or collected post from the postbox while kids were in the house - should I be prosecuted for this, emzy?
Obviously you and greine are perfect parents.

FatherTed

This is a terrible event but I'm sorry, the parents f-ked up. I know accidents happen and I know abductions are rare but this could have been prevented. The parents were just lazy.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote:

Does anyone know what the motives are for these abductors? What do they do with the children?

Depends upon who the abductor is and the age of the child. In many cases the motivation is sexual, a lone male or couple looking to sexually abuse or rape the child. In such cases the child will most likely end up dead shortly thereafter, or in a minority of cases may even find themselves imprisoned, for years on end.

Otherwise the motivation tends to be financial. Ransoms are one possibility, however so are sale (illegal adoptions) or for use in pornography (though I think this is quite rare). The third and possibly most disquieting motivation is body sharking. There's been a thriving World market in human organs since the early nineties, and demand for compatible child organs exists just as it does for adults.

When I was seven I was walking, alone, from school when a car pulled up and a woman (in the passenger seat, I think a man was driving) offered me a toffee to get in. I refused, partially as I don't like toffee much, but mainly because I had grown up in Rome which has always had problems with child abductions, especially with parts of the gypsy community who are known to trade in it - so I knew exactly what was going on. I politely declined and they drove off. My mother was naturally horrified, and relieved, when I told her.

IMHO, Kid's can take care of themselves (more correctly be aware of the dangers) once they reach a certain age age and have been educated, and until then they should be watched closely and be taught to trust nothing and no one outside of family.

In the Madeleine McCann case though, the parents seemed to be taking reasonable care - they were only 100 or so metres away and were checking every twenty minutes or so. Ultimately unless you decide never to let them literally out of your sight and never sleep, there's a limit to what any parent can do, and even then that is no guarantee that a child will not be abducted from right underneath the parent's nose.

metrovelvet

Seven is vastly different from 3 years old. At three in a foreign country do you think she could have called 999 if something happened in the house or she choked on something? She may not even have been able to read or reach the door handle.

What I also find intriguing about this case is the media attention it gets. Do you have to be the white middle class daughter of professionals to scandalise a nation with your disappearance?

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote:

Seven is vastly different from 3 years old.

A fair point - discussing seven as an age is OT here as the tread is about toddlers.

What I also find intriguing about this case is the media attention it gets. Do you have to be the white middle class daughter of professionals to scandalise a nation with your disappearance?

I do think that it also raises the point that you simply cannot be too careful - more precisely, all the care in the World will not protect your child. The McCann's appear to have been reasonable in their care, for the distance they were from the child they could have almost been in their back garden and the same thing could have happened.

metrovelvet

^ That's interesting. Is the estrangement/alienation of the context, in that it is not familiar what draws our attention to it or is it too undigestible to think the same thing can happen at home so we dont pay much attention to it when it does happen "in our own backyards" because it's too indigestible?

I know when some blonde co ed goes missing in Aruba the american media goes bananas but people disappear every day of the week and no one cares when it's on home ground.

I also know that in Guiliani's NYC in 1997 a Danish woman on holiday was arrested for leaving a buggy with child outside of a restaurant while she was on the other side of the glass pane having lunch [restaurant probably didnt allow her in with buggy]. I think the formal charge was child endangerment. Zero tolerance - you know.

BaZmO*

metrovelvet wrote:

What I also find intriguing about this case is the media attention it gets. Do you have to be the white middle class daughter of professionals to scandalise a nation with your disappearance?

The Jamie Bolger case and the Holly and Jessica case had just as much coverage and their parents certainly weren't middle class.

I don't think class is the reason why stories like this get so much coverage. I think it's more to do with fact that it taps into the fear that most people have, a fear that something awful will happen to their children regardless of how unlikely it may be. And it sells papers, unfortunate but true.

Deliverance

metrovelvet wrote:

Seven is vastly different from 3 years old. At three in a foreign country do you think she could have called 999 if something happened in the house or she choked on something? She may not even have been able to read or reach the door handle.

Your totally correct on that point metro:
Choking hazards are everywhere and seem to just appear out of the blue, I watch my little one 24/7, as you do, and instinctively know when she is out of sight if something is not quite right by the sounds I'm tuned into.

A few days ago I knew something was wrong and quickstepped into the room she was in and straight away, calmly said 'ta ta' and put my hand under her mouth, she promptly spat out a plastic inch long cover of a bottle top perfect for choking, where it came from I really don't know as I constantly scan for objects like this.

On another point. I heard a shocking story lately where a little girl whoes mother lost sight of her for a moment in a supermarket turned around to see her gone, the supermarket was locked down and all exits were blocked very quickly due to the quick action of the market and the mom.

They found the little girl in a toilet with her hair cut and she was wearing a baseball cap, she looked like a little boy and the plan was to take her out as a boy in the panic and confusion as such.

These evil bastards are extremely devious and obviously live for abducting kids for whatever reason. Something needs to be done to warn all parents about how devious they are and the publicity around poor little Maddy will help towards this at least. At this stage I hate to say it but I have a feeling that it is not looking good.

metrovelvet

Statistically most of these accidents happen when BOTH parents are watching the child because one assumes the other is paying attention.

That's really frightening about the abductors!

RainyDay

Deliverance wrote:

On another point. I heard a shocking story lately where a little girl whoes mother lost sight of her for a moment in a supermarket turned around to see her gone, the supermarket was locked down and all exits were blocked very quickly due to the quick action of the market and the mom.

They found the little girl in a toilet with her hair cut and she was wearing a baseball cap, she looked like a little boy and the plan was to take her out as a boy in the panic and confusion as such.

I heard this story too, apparently about the Dundrum centre, with the added spicy detail that the abductors were Nigerian. I just don't believe it.

For one, if this had happened, I would expect it to be all over the broadcast & print media in huge detail. If any supermarket of significant size was 'locked down', many, many people would be aware of this, and you'd have mobile phone coverage on Youtube and TV3.

It really did seem like racist scaremongering to me.

simu

RainyDay wrote:

I heard this story too, apparently about the Dundrum centre, with the added spicy detail that the abductors were Nigerian. I just don't believe it.

For one, if this had happened, I would expect it to be all over the broadcast & print media in huge detail. If any supermarket of significant size was 'locked down', many, many people would be aware of this, and you'd have mobile phone coverage on Youtube and TV3.

It really did seem like racist scaremongering to me.

Ah but you're killing the drama.

A good parent is a fearful parent.

gonker

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/parental/kidnap.asp