Fianna Fail Voters

csk

InFront wrote:

Look, the fact is that a vote for FF is a vote for an unknown Taoiseach.
You're trusting that party to decide amongst themselves who they want to lead us - unlike a general election where there is a vehicle for public influence over the decision.
It could be Cowen, it could be Cullen, it could be Micheal Martin, it could be Dick Roche. It worries me to think what the party who gave us a Minister of Defence playing war with army equipment would give us as a Taoiseach.

A vote for the coalition is a vote for a definite Taoiseach, and a definite Tanaiste. Why should anyone vote for a leader whose name they don't even know yet?!

Actually a vote for FF is a vote for Foireann Bhertie, have you not seen the posters, god knows there is enough of them.

If a vote for FF is a vote for an unknown Taoiseach then a vote for FG/Lab is a vote for a slump coalition and I like my Celtic Tiger thank you very much

nesf

Dalfiatach wrote:

Go on then, this should be good for a laugh....

What, specifically, are your issues with the manner in which the Greens want to implement things? Please support your answer with quotes from their manifesto and/or examples of actual Greens actually doing mad stuff....

Eh, really I have better things to do than justifying my opinion to you (i.e. I have never argued that other people shouldn't vote for the Greens only that I don't plan on doing it) but they want to ban all GM foods from being grown in this country for a start. The fact that we've been genetically modifying plants and animals since antiquity seems to escape them. This to me is silliness. I respect that others disagree with me but I don't think that policies like these are things that I want to see implemented in this country.

InFront

csk wrote:

If a vote for FF is a vote for an unknown Taoiseach then a vote for FG/Lab is a vote for a slump coalition and I like my Celtic Tiger thank you very much

Team Bertie, is that supposed to be reassuring? If you're happy with the prospect of Willie O Dea in charge of the economy, I'm not going to argue with that.

To use the (PD) term 'slump coalition' is to pretend that you know that whoever is chosen by the FF party to lead the government in the event of a FF win, is worthy of making a fair stab at the economy.
There's more at stake here than not knowing who the succeeding Taoiseach would be, it's a matter of not knowing who'd be left running the economy.

csk

InFront wrote:

Team Bertie, is that supposed to be reassuring? If you're happy with the prospect of Willie O Dea in charge of the economy, I'm not going to argue with that.

To use the (PD) term 'slump coalition' is to pretend that you know that whoever is chosen by the FF party to lead the government in the event of a FF win, is worthy of making a fair stab at the economy.
There's more at stake here than not knowing who the succeeding Taoiseach would be, it's a matter of not knowing who'd be left running the economy.

Yes it's who the people are being asked to vote for - Foireann Bhertie - I find it incredulous that you would spin it anyother way. Actually weak would be a better term.

Yes and Brian Cowen is a fine Minster of Finance, I mean Enda the charisma black hole as Taoiseach is the truly terrifying thought. His only experienc is as Minister for Tourism, not exactly the stuff of Statesmen like say Dermot Ahern.

Dalfiatach

nesf wrote:

Eh, really I have better things to do than justifying my opinion to you

In other words yer just throwing empty shapes and indulging in vacuous bogeymonstering

nesf wrote:

but they want to ban all GM foods from being grown in this country for a start. The fact that we've been genetically modifying plants and animals since antiquity seems to escape them. This to me is silliness. I respect that others disagree with me but I don't think that policies like these are things that I want to see implemented in this country.

There's a wee tiny smidgen of a difference between

a) selective natural cross-breeding of variants of the same species over hundreds of years to improve strength and yield, and

b) splicing jellyfish genes into wheat and having the resulting - largely untested - hybrid which could never have occured in nature, with unknowable implications for the local ecosystem, a patented product controlled by an unaccountable foreign MNC, planted all over the country.

luapenak

nesf wrote:

Eh, really I have better things to do than justifying my opinion to you (i.e. I have never argued that other people shouldn't vote for the Greens only that I don't plan on doing it) but they want to ban all GM foods from being grown in this country for a start

Do you know what there policy is regarding genetic modification for use in research?i hope they don't have any problems with that.

nesf

Dalfiatach wrote:

In other words yer just throwing empty shapes and indulging in vacuous bogeymonstering

Expressing an opinion that disagrees with yours is "throwing empty shapes" is it?

Dalfiatach wrote:

There's a wee tiny smidgen of a difference between



a) selective natural cross-breeding of variants of the same species over hundreds of years to improve strength and yield, and

b) splicing jellyfish genes into wheat and having the resulting - largely untested - hybrid which could never have occured in nature, with unknowable implications for the local ecosystem, a patented product controlled by an unaccountable foreign MNC, planted all over the country.

What a blatant attempt at scaremongering/sensationalism. Are you actually implying that your example b) is typical of all GM foods? Painting pictures of debates using only extreme examples isn't very honest or helpful.


luapenak, I don't know the exact quote off their manifesto is:

Promote the clean green image of Ireland abroad
creating a ‘green Ireland’ brand for food products
and ensure Ireland becomes a GM-free zone and ban
farming of cloned animals.

Dalfiatach

nesf wrote:

Expressing an opinion that disagrees with yours is "throwing empty shapes" is it?

When you just trot out empty platitudes like "I disagree with their ideology", "I disagree with the way they'll implement their ideas" and then point-blank refuse to back any of these assertions up with anything approaching reason, analysis and fact, then yes, you are throwing empty shapes.

You first say you're voting FF because "they've been good for the economy" when analysis shows this is not the case and our economy is now in a dangerously unbalanced shape and on most indices in in much worse shape than it was 5 years ago. You say "FG/Lab were an economic disaster last time and we'll all be out of a job if they get back in" when again, simple analysis shows the last Rainbow had a better economic record in terms of job creation, exports, low inflation, budget surpluses etc etc than the last 5 years. Then you trot out some empty nonsense about how the Greens are dangerous radicals and when called on it all you can find is their antipathy to patented GM crops under the control of the likes of Monsanto. An antipathy I daresay most Irish people would actually share if they knew the facts.

How can it possibly be right for a foreign multinational to own the copyright on wheat and spuds??? The jellyfish example is just one of many. We're talking foreign genes from other plants, organisms, bacteria and virii being spliced into agricultural produce. The resulting hybrids are often, by amazing coincidence, sterile - which means every year the farmer has to go back and buy new seeds from Monsanto again. We have no idea what the effect might be on all the other organisms in the natural ecosystem - the birds, the bees, the worms, the weeds. We have no idea what the effects might be when we've been eating the stuff for years. On numerous occasions, the GM companies have had to withdraw products. It took Monsanto 10 years to admit that their Roundup Ready GM soybeans had numerous rogue fragments of DNA that they had no idea were in there. Privatising nature itself? Only a lunatic could consider that a good idea.

nesf

Dalfiatach wrote:

When you just trot out empty platitudes like "I disagree with their ideology", "I disagree with the way they'll implement their ideas" and then point-blank refuse to back any of these assertions up with anything approaching reason, analysis and fact, then yes, you are throwing empty shapes.

I disagree. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to say that you disagree with a party's ideology but not all of their policies. I made assertions as to my opinion not claims to fact. If I said that the Greens would take us back to the stone age or some other nonsense I'd agree that I would need to back up those assertions. But I didn’t say that and I didn’t point blank refuse to back up my opinions on the Green’s ideology, I just questioned the point in trying force me to and your use of language. Things like the proposed ban on GM products is simply something I don’t agree with. I have read about the debate, read opinions on both sides and come to an opinion on it. Like most things. From the fact that the Greens hold a differing opinion to me it follows that I disagree with their policy and ideology on this matter and wouldn’t represent my opinions/views, ergo I don’t plan on voting for them. Do you want me to justify this any further or are my reasons for not wishing to vote for the Greens clear enough?

Dalfiatach wrote:

You first say you're voting FF because "they've been good for the economy" when analysis shows this is not the case and our economy is now in a dangerously unbalanced shape and on most indices in in much worse shape than it was 5 years ago.

This affects my opinion on the Greens or my opinions on GM crops how? I’m also unsure if you are actually quoting me there or quoting what you’d like me to say.

Dalfiatach wrote:

You say "FG/Lab were an economic disaster last time and we'll all be out of a job if they get back in" when again, simple analysis shows the last Rainbow had a better economic record in terms of job creation, exports, low inflation, budget surpluses etc etc than the last 5 years. Then you trot out some empty nonsense about how the Greens are dangerous radicals and when called on it all you can find is their antipathy to patented GM crops under the control of the likes of Monsanto. An antipathy I daresay most Irish people would actually share if they knew the facts.

a) I never said FG/Lab were an economic disaster last time.
b) I never called the Greens dangerous radicals.
c) Please stop misquoting and misrepresenting me.

Dalfiatach wrote:

How can it possibly be right for a foreign multinational to own the copyright on wheat and spuds??? The jellyfish example is just one of many. We're talking foreign genes from other plants, organisms, bacteria and virii being spliced into agricultural produce. The resulting hybrids are often, by amazing coincidence, sterile - which means every year the farmer has to go back and buy new seeds from Monsanto again. We have no idea what the effect might be on all the other organisms in the natural ecosystem - the birds, the bees, the worms, the weeds. We have no idea what the effects might be when we've been eating the stuff for years. On numerous occasions, the GM companies have had to withdraw products. It took Monsanto 10 years to admit that their Roundup Ready GM soybeans had numerous rogue fragments of DNA that they had no idea were in there. Privatising nature itself? Only a lunatic could consider that a good idea.

None of the above justifies a blanket ban on GM products in this country and fails to recognise that while there are extremes of GM modification there is a spectrum of modification going on here and that it is simply nonsensical to tar them all with the same brush (which is exactly what the GM debate boils down to). Also privatising nature itself? What exactly does that mean?

McSandwich

csk wrote:

Actually a vote for FF is a vote for Foireann Bhertie, have you not seen the posters, god knows there is enough of them.

If a vote for FF is a vote for an unknown Taoiseach then a vote for FG/Lab is a vote for a slump coalition and I like my Celtic Tiger thank you very much

Why? That just doesn't make sense! FF/PD have ignored the celtic tiger for so long now that it can no longer compete with some of the new emerging tigers east of here. Unless that is you're a property developer in which case you can be proud of the rapidly growing pyramid on which the celtic tiger 'economy' is now based...

csk

McSandwich wrote:

Why? That just doesn't make sense!

If you were refering to this:
"If a vote for FF is a vote for an unknown Taoiseach then a vote for FG/Lab is a vote for a slump coalition"

Then yes of course it doesn't make sense, which btw was my point because we aren't being asked to vote for an unknown Taoiseach we are being asked to vote for Bertie.

FF/PD have ignored the celtic tiger for so long now that it can no longer compete with some of the new emerging tigers east of here. Unless that is you're a property developer in which case you can be proud of the rapidly growing pyramid on which the celtic tiger 'economy' is now based...

That's not really true now is it. I'm no property developer although sometimes I wish I was, but despite that handicap, the Celtic Tiger has been very, very good to me, Foireann Bhertie managed that economy very, very well.

thebush

I have little interest in what FG & Labour have to say partly due to the fact that I have been listening to some of their lesser members of their party on TV & radio lately. Many of them seem to have very little to say in substance & just tend to reapeat themselves & dont come across as experienced poloticians. FF arent much better & I hope Bertie does the decent thing & resign over this hole debarkle.

PS. Did anyone hear him on RTE last nite talking about the "TRAWLS"...I think he meant "TRIALS"...GOD HELP US IF HE GETS BACK IN AGAIN. If he does think of it this way. What will happen when the truth comes out from the trawl...sorry I mean trial & he is in government with say FG, will the new government last long? I dont thinkso...so what happens...the new government collspses & we have to do it all over gain. Think about this. I think Bertie shoulod bow out gracefully & accept he done wrong.

Thats just my opinion of course/

csk

thebush wrote:

I have little interest in what FG & Labour have to say partly due to the fact that I have been listening to some of their lesser members of their party on TV & radio lately. Many of them seem to have very little to say in substance & just tend to reapeat themselves & dont come across as experienced poloticians. FF arent much better & I hope Bertie does the decent thing & resign over this hole debarkle.

PS. Did anyone hear him on RTE last nite talking about the "TRAWLS"...I think he meant "TRIALS"...GOD HELP US IF HE GETS BACK IN AGAIN. If he does think of it this way. What will happen when the truth comes out from the trawl...sorry I mean trial & he is in government with say FG, will the new government last long? I dont thinkso...so what happens...the new government collspses & we have to do it all over gain. Think about this. I think Bertie shoulod bow out gracefully & accept he done wrong.

Thats just my opinion of course/

Him=Bertie? in Gov with FG? Can I have what your smokin please:D

gilroyb

Dalfiatach wrote:

You first say you're voting FF because "they've been good for the economy" when analysis shows this is not the case and our economy is now in a dangerously unbalanced shape and on most indices in in much worse shape than it was 5 years ago.

Which indices are these?

stepbar

Boston wrote:

I'm genuinely going to vote for no change in government. In the absence of a convincing argument as to how a new government will benefit me, I see no reason to take a risk. Some people here are of the mind "anything but FF", I'm not of that mind set. I was raised on the horror stories of the last time FG/Labour where in power, I see letting them run the country as a major risk.

Ah, you remember the great years from 77 - 82?

Boston wrote:

People like StepBar and Scully are so blinded by there hatred of FF that they can see why anyone might vote that way, but still I don't think there's any doubt that they'll be the biggest party in the dail after the next election, so I'm not alone. I simply don't trust Labour and FG has never represented people of my socio-economic back ground. I think the Greens would rip the country apart and send us back into the stone age if they ever got into power and I think Sinn Fein should never be in government.

So Boston, what is your "socio-economic" background? A, B, C1, C2.... ?

McSandwich

csk wrote:

That's not really true now is it. I'm no property developer although sometimes I wish I was, but despite that handicap, the Celtic Tiger has been very, very good to me, Foireann Bhertie managed that economy very, very well.

Unfortunately, it is true. We're currently ranked 21st in the Global Competitiveness Report: http://www.satradehub.org/CXA_html/docs/Part0_final.pdf

This is down from 11th in 2002: http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1112/IBEC.html

I'm not saying the economy is ****ed but, this does not bode well for the future if we don't get back on track quickly.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005939.shtml

The question is, why did "Foireann Bhertie" let this happen?

csk

McSandwich wrote:

I'm not saying the economy is ****ed but, this does not bode well for the future if we don't get back on track quickly.

So what are you saying? Indicators aren't good but it can be sorted out...seems relatively straightforward enough when you strip away the scaremongering.

The question is, why didn't "Foireann Bhertie" let this happen?

Why don't you ask them?

McSandwich

csk wrote:

So what are you saying? Indicators aren't good but it can be sorted out...seems relatively straightforward enough when you strip away the scaremongering.

Who's scaremongering? I just presented the facts. Recovery would be straight forward if it weren't for higher interest rates and inflation, high euro versus US dollar, and a high level of personal debt.

Why don't you ask them?

Prevention would've been better than the cure and they've had enough time to do that already.

InFront

csk wrote:

we aren't being asked to vote for an unknown Taoiseach we are being asked to vote for Bertie.

Well, until he gives up and decides to hand it over to one of his followers. Which one? Micheal Martin is well known for expressing interst in the job. Would you like to see Micheal Martin as Taoiseach, really?

No thanks.

Yes it's who the people are being asked to vote for - Foireann Bhertie - I find it incredulous that you would spin it anyother way.

Every other party can offer a definite leader, Fianna Fail can only offer a temporary one, and cannot yet say who is willing to go into coalition with them. No clear leader, no coalition, no future in Government,

csk

InFront wrote:

Well, until he gives up and decides to hand it over to one of his followers. Which one? Micheal Martin is well known for expressing interst in the job. Would you like to see Micheal Martin as Taoiseach, really?

No thanks.

Every other party can offer a definite leader, Fianna Fail can only offer a temporary one, and cannot yet say who is willing to go into coalition with them. No clear leader, no coalition, no future in Government,

You're not still banging this drum. A vote for FF is a vote for Bertie. The most popular politican in Ireland today. FF will STILL be the biggest party after the election. The last poll I saw was saying FF/lab.

Brian Cowen, Dermot Ahern, Mary Hanafin are all way ahead of O'Dea ffs. Where Micheál Martin comes in I don't know nor care.

Trying to spin it that a vote for FF is a vote for Willie O'Dea as Taoiseach what can I say? It's actually quite funny how low FG have to to stoop.

I'm not even an FF supporter but even I can see your stretching...it's this kind of negative low blow tactics that would turn you off FG.

InFront

What are you talking about, the last major poll was yesterday and it is quite clear that FG and Labour have the ability to form the next Government provided they get support from the Greens.
As it stands, Fianna Fail are not in an election pact: alone, they will be unable to form a Government. If it is a case that their friends in the PDs won't even form a government with them, it's laughable that you think the likes of Pat Rabbitte and Joan Burton would.

You keep saying that a vote for FF is a vote for Bertie when he's already said that he's going to quit during his term, and three years down the line, (if Fianna Fail were elected to power now), we could have Micheal Martin as Taoiseach.

Do you think the public trust Micheal Martin?

csk

McSandwich wrote:

Recovery would be straight forward if it weren't for higher interest rates and inflation, high euro versus US dollar, and a high level of personal debt.

Well there you go! What would you have Bertie do if we are getting ourselves into personal debt?

McSandwich

csk wrote:

Well there you go! What would you have Bertie do if we are getting ourselves into personal debt?

His job?

High personal debt + high interest rates = low consumer confidence + less money to spend = job losses = economic slowdown. Also, fewer exports so less money coming into the country.

csk

InFront wrote:

You keep saying that a vote for FF is a vote for Bertie

That's the bottom line yes. Should we go in circles again?

Do you think the public trust Micheal Martin?

Then that would be precisely the reason he won't be Taoiseach.

Brian Cowen, Dermot Ahern are the real heaveyweights of Irish Politics unlike Enda the charisma Black hole as Taoiseach, again a terrifying thought and unlike the pie in the sky hypotheticals you insist on coming up with, could actually become a reality.

Dalfiatach

gilroyb wrote:

Which indices are these?

Exports down, proportion of exports by MNCs up to 90%, inflation rampant, balance of payments in the red and getting worse, budget back in deficit, private debt highest in the entire world, house prices highest in world (Dublin residential property is more expensive than London, Paris, Berlin, Zurich or Tokyo), public sector wages as proportion of GNP out of control, proportion of economy reliant on property highest in OECD, worst broadband in OECD (and FF try to claim we're going to be a "knowledge economy". With no broadband)....I've got plenty more if you'd like to see them...have you not been paying attention to the thread?

But FFers like to pretend the economy is "the strongest in the world". Bollix. It was doing nicely up till 1999/2000. Ever since it's been slowly sinking into the sh1te. And in case no-one ever told you, there's a 18 month to 2 year lag between government decisions and full effect in the economy...so, in 10 years, this Government has done SFA...

Dalfiatach

csk wrote:

Well there you go! What would you have Bertie do if we are getting ourselves into personal debt?

Tell the Central Bank to enforce prudent lending criteria on the banking system. Introduce tax measures to discourage rampant asset speculation. Stop telling people that "the boom is getting boomer" - spend, spend, spend!

DJDC

Are people generally happy with the way they have organised housing and urban development and the way they have treated the Irish environment over the last 10 years?

I was being sarcastic. This government have been a disaster for the irish environment. It has suffered irreversible damage as a result of massive over-development and pollution since 1997. The Gaeltachts are being wiped out due to holiday home development, housing estates are turning country villages into commuter ghost towns, areas of natural beauty are being destroyed(EU directives have time and time again punished the government over this issue). FF are a corrupt party that is inherently linked to the construction/property development industry and will never get my vote. If you care about the environment, they shouldnt get yours either.

DJDC

DJDC wrote:

I was being sarcastic.

So this thread was a wind up and you had no interest in the answers?

DJDC wrote:

The Gaeltachts are being wiped out due to holiday home development, housing estates are turning country villages into commuter ghost towns, areas of natural beauty are being destroyed(EU directives have time and time again punished the government over this issue).

Huh?

The Gaeltachts in the 80s were hardly bastions of barefoot children in thatched cottages speaking the mother tongue.

This country was not exactly full of vibrant villages before housing estates.

What areas of natural beauty are being destroyed as a matter of interest?

borg07

DJDC wrote:

FF are a corrupt party that is inherently linked to the construction/property development industry.

FF has had a few corrupt people in it, just like other parties and for that matter you will find corrupt people in virtually any organisation.

There is actually nothing wrong with a strong construction industry, it generates huge amounts of jobs and taxes, these taxes go into schools, hospitals, roads etc etc etc

DJDC wrote:

if you care about the environment, they shouldnt get yours either.

I do care which is precisely why I am voting FF, Dick Roche an extremely intelligent and capable minister.

Voting for FG will result in the greens getting into power - adding 20c to litre petrol, carbon taxes, increasing corporation tax, damaging the IFSC with their bank levy, abolishing treatment purchase fund, abolish tax relief on pensions - no thanks!

gandalf

borg07 wrote:

FF has had a few corrupt people in it, just like other parties and for that matter you will find corrupt people in virtually any organisation.

No FF have the majority of the corrupt, including ex Government ministers who have done time.

There is actually nothing wrong with a strong construction industry, it generates huge amounts of jobs and taxes, these taxes go into schools, hospitals, roads etc etc etc

Of course there isn't anything wrong with a strong construction industry no one would disagree with you but there are serious issues with one that drives policy for the benifit of greed and the few without taking into consideration hospitals, schools, roads etc just look at the estates built in the middle of nowhere without this infrastructure. Have a look at Kildare for example where there is severe pressue on schools because they are only starting to realise now "Oh bugger we built a **** load of houses, better get some schools up".

I do care which is precisely why I am voting FF, Dick Roche an extremely intelligent and capable minister.

Yes I am sure the people who can't drink from their taps in Galway will agree with you. I have met the man, he can talk but beyond that I think he is at the same level as Martin Cullen, someone that should be fired from government.

Voting for FG will result in the greens getting into power - adding 20c to litre petrol, carbon taxes, increasing corporation tax, damaging the IFSC with their bank levy, abolishing treatment purchase fund, abolish tax relief on pensions - no thanks!

Care to quote me from their manifesto by any chance ? Because to be honest you are carrying on the negative campaigning that has characterised this Governments attempts at getting back in again.