Expand the Naval service.

irishsurfer

Naval Service / Coastguard.
We have one maritime enforcement agency with many functions.
It is very important.

The minimum requirement advised to adequetly patrol our Sea Area is:
Primary
2 HPV - Helicopter patrol Vessels. Some would argue 3 HPV
6 OPV - Offshore Patrol Vessels
4 CPV - Coatal Patrol Vessel
Auxillary
2 Ocean Going Tugs with Dive Support capability.
4 APV - Auxilliary Patrol Vessel

Currently we have
1 HPV with an under-used Air capability.
2 Roisin class OPV - excellent for its job
2 or 3 modified Dierdre class OPV. Ending their service life.
2 Peacock CPV. Excellent vessels, but will need to be replaces.

The Graine Uaille Irish Lights vessel has acted in an auxilliary role in dive support at times.
The Celtic Voyager has also fufilled an auxilliary role at times.
The Celtic Explorer can also be drafted in an emergency.

None of the above have real Tug capability, thats important.
The nearest Ocean tug I know of on standby is in Devonport.

Suggested HPV type by many is Thetis class from Denmark.
I agree with this.
Specifically designed for endurance in the North Atlantic, small crew.
Designed to do the Greenland Fisheries station.
Excellent FRC Launch and recovery capability.
Has OTO Melera Main Gun so the NS has experience with those.
It does not, as standard carry Anti Ship or Anti Aircraft Missiles.
The ship is modular, so if ever such systems were needed could be retro-fitted.

A slightly altered version has a stern ramp and designated cargo space.
I remain un-convinced for the need of transport, commercial shipping can cover heavy lift.

The Thetis operates Helicoptors up to Merlin/S61 size up to sea state 7.

Personally I think the NS should have an organic rotary airwing with its own aircrew.
Aircraft should be selected for commonality with AirCorps helicopters, e.g.AW139 Wolfhound, reducing purchase,maintainence,training and parts costs

The Roisin type is ideally suited to its job in OPV/CPV.

APVs are fairly straight forward.

cushtac

irishsurfer wrote:

Currently we have 1 HPV with an under-used Air capability.

It's a completely unused air capability & has been for a long time. The Dauphins have been disposed of and Eithne's hangar space is now used for storage etc.

irishsurfer

hence the need for an integrated air capability.
If the NS dont get their own aircraft, then there is no real point in investing money in building a hanger and accom for aircrew.

Nuttzz

why are helis needed at sea? dont the casas do that job?

jmayo

Nuttzz wrote:

why are helis needed at sea? dont the casas do that job?

What happens if need to get to emergency 100 miles off Achill, is it not easier for heli on ship 20 miles out to get to scene before heli based at Finner camp??

Note emergency here could be something like the Air India crash back in 1980s when vessels converged on crash site to recover wreckage and bodies.

Helicopters extend the range of the ship and act as deterrent to fash moving craft.
Helicopter can be used to help track vessels, to board ships, to carry supplies, crews etc ...

Nuttzz

the UK used land based choppers for all their SAR, bad weather might not allow for heli ops

irishsurfer

If the Naval Service is to have an air capability, to expand search peramiters, for boarding, interdiction or SAR then it should be integrated into the NS - going on past performance the AC cannot, or more to the point, will not provide this aspect of service.

OS119

Nuttzz wrote:

the UK used land based choppers for all their SAR, bad weather might not allow for heli ops

the UK uses land based - RN, RAF and civillian contractors to HM Coastguard - helicopters for its dedicated SAR provision, but the RN helicopters (Lynx, Merlin and Sea King) on board RN vessels also undertake SAR taskings, both on an ad hoc basis worldwide and as a 'declared' asset in the UK's statutary sea areas.

on a number of occasions RAF and RN SAR Sea Kings have conducted 'hot' refuelings while perched on RN warships that aren't quite big enough to take a Sea King in normal operations, thus massively increasing their time on station, rather than having to return to land bases to refuel.

the ideal is obviously a helicopter that can do traditional in-flight refueling and to have low-speed tankers that can refuel them, the USAF CSAR MH-53's in southern England have regularly done civilian rescues way out in the Atlantic where the RAF/RN/HMCG heli's cant get to without a convenient warship to refuel on - however precariously.

maintaining a skill/equipment base where helis can operate from NS patrol vessels is vital, particularly given Irelands responsibilities in its new 200 mile economic zone. if those helis can be part of the AC then that just makes more sense - after all RAF and British Army helicopters regularly deploy about RN vessels and conduct operations while on board - having a seperate NS flying arm for what might only be 2 or 3 operational NS helis would be ridiculous. if the AC Helicopter wing needs a little shake-up until it understands that its role is to support all Irish military operations, rather than just the warm, dry, safe ones with a comfortable bed at the end of each day then so be it...

irishsurfer

Hey OS119 - I agree with 90% of what you have said in this and other topics.
However, I am fully convinced of the practicality of an NS airwing.

I think it has been demonstrated that the AirCorps will not be 'shook up'.
They had 20 years to develop shipboard operations, and never fully did.
If its broke its time to fix it.

Countries such as Denmark, Belgium and the Nederlands with small navies have the airwing as organic to the maritime operations side.

About maintaining skills, Inhover refueling is a fairly standard operation. I have done it on merchant vessels.

With regard to longrange SAR I have always been in favour of helos with MH-53/Seahawk capability of in-flight refueling twinned with an MPA with buddy tanks such as the C130.

This would be run by A/C

An airwing of 4/6 birds as part of the NS on 2/3 HPVs where 1st and 2nd level maintainence can be done in the naval service.

The only condition I would make is that the Aircraft would be very copatable with A/C e.g. the same aircraft 'navalised' or the same avionics and powerplant.
This would standardise training and 3rd level maintainence.

Maskhadov

There is €250bn of oil off the irish coast. We can well afford a 30 ship navy.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-on-the-verge-of-an-oil-and-gas-bonanza-679889.html

irishsurfer

We dont need a 30 ship navy, we dont need a 20 ship navy, it would serve no purpose and the money is better spent elsewhere.

I have no idea what purpose a 30 ship Irish navy would serve.

Just for starterd crewing one of such size would be unfeasable.

What is required has been already outlined.

Irish Maritime requirements are very simple, as is the fast jet question.

Question 1:
What is a prudent and realistic requirement
Question 2:
What is a practical and realistic answer

Anyway, its not our oil or gas, it was sold to Shell and Marathon for 500 pounds.

The Irish exchecker will get Zero from the Oil and Gas reserves.

Thank the people who will be elected into the next government - whoever they are.

But that is a seperate debate.

OS119

nationalising oil/gas reserves is not unknown in the history of the world.

i've no real understanding of how the IG flogged off rights to the oil/gas fields, but i can guarrantee that should the day come when Irish factories have to shut down because friend Putin is playing monkey business with his gas supply then the Shell contract won't be worth the paper its written on.

'legal reasons' won't wash with the politicians when the lights go off and tankers full of LNG are heading westwards.

(this isn't a political commentary on the rights and wrongs of selling assets to private entities, merely a bald statement of fact. governments fall when the lights go out, forced to choose between political disaster and legal unpleasentness your politician will opt for that which keeps his seat warm.)

irishsurfer

I know its getting off the point -
But it is an utter discrace with the current oil and gas situation.

I dont advocate nationalising the system, but we should have a Norwegian system where the state profits from its natural resouces and industry.
That is, the state should benefit from the oil and gas.

Shell and Marathon paid the state 500 pounds for all the exclusive gas and oil rights- thats all we will get.
You can thank FF and more specifically Since 1987, after the appointment of Ray Burke (Minister for Energy) by Taoiseach Charles Haughey, Ireland forfeited its stakehold, participation and royalties in any oil or gas find in Irish territory.
Currently a consortium of Royal Dutch Shell (45%), the Norwegian state company Statoil (36.5%) and US based Marathon (18.5%) are the exclusive owners of gas from the Corrib Field. Frank Fahy was also a major player


I guess it is to the point that if the AirCorps and Naval Service are expanded, offshore oil and gas installations will be included in that remit.

Taxes pay for that.

But as it stands at the moment, the Irish state will not get one cent from the exploitation of our oil and gas. Nowhere in the world do oil corporations have a better deal, even Nigeria got a better deal despite corruption and years of military rule.

Therefore Shell/Marathon should have to pay corporate taxes like every other business on the Island.

Even at a low rate it would pay for all the hospitals, roads, social services and national development.

It would also pay for Ships and Aircraft

Clare gunner

Yeah,only trouble is;how do you keep the plants then running,if you make a grab for them?All well to nationalise the refinery,but if your personel dont know the special ins and outs of running it,or procuring the spare parts,you will be just as quick in the dark.Ireland "might" have all this reserve gas /oil whatever.But we dont have the refineing capability etc.Thats where they have us.If we had the facilites to process the crude gas.We could negotiate a deal.Nil chance of that happening.

OS119

Clare gunner wrote:

Yeah,only trouble is;how do you keep the plants then running,if you make a grab for them?All well to nationalise the refinery,but if your personel dont know the special ins and outs of running it,or procuring the spare parts,you will be just as quick in the dark.Ireland "might" have all this reserve gas /oil whatever.But we dont have the refineing capability etc.Thats where they have us.If we had the facilites to process the crude gas.We could negotiate a deal.Nil chance of that happening.

Shell aren't the only perveyors of refining/drilling capability.

you have 10 billion bls of the black stuff, plus a natural gas field and no territorial disputes. you can make any fcuking deal you like.

unless you actually rely on the Irish field to keep the lights on you don't need to have it up and running. with every day that its not being exploited it grows more valuable, so give it a year you'll have the big boys queuing up to do a deal, or you could pay the Norwegians or Brits to educate a generation of Irish engineers in order to exploit the field as a national concern, it requires a capital investment and patience, but then its all yours...

irishsurfer

As OS119 says, it should be that we tell the industrialists what we want, not the other way round.
And Clare Gunner - As I said, I dont advocte nationalising reserves, but getting something out of the deal more than 500 punts