United Premiership Champs

Paul Tergat

Sizzler wrote:

Ferdinand: Vidic was the making of him and a few years after paying 29m for the lad hes finally got the trophy he was after and went some way

well it's his second title, won it in his first season in 02/03

The Muppet

kaisersose77 wrote:

If you go back to when Ferguson took over Utd, I wonder how much he has spent altogether compared to how much chelsea have spent since Roman took over.

I did that exercise a few season ago when on one of my crusades and if i remember correctly It turned out that Uniteds nett spend since fergie took control was on a a par with Liverpool and Arsenal at that time. That post was pre Romans massive spending at chelski who have taken spending to new heights in the last few years.

That post would be in the archive or maybe someone has it on file.


I had a quick delve into the archive again and found the post below. I think its the right one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=238503




This place used to be so much fun.

scojones

Absolutely delighted. I wanted the league more than anything. I was gutted last week when United went out of Europe, but I knew this day was coming. I'd prefer to win the league than anything else, and it really feels like it has been an age since United lifted The Premiership trophy. I'm just so happy right now. I'll be smiling for months.

redzerdrog

congratulation on winning the league ye were the best team in the league this season so fair play it was well deserved just like liverpool deserve to be in the champions league final pity the majority of ye are too bitter to recognise this.

scojones

Why must people insist on bringing Liverpool into this conversation? Sweeping comments like that will do this thread no good, redzerdrog.

astrofool

I don't think anyone thinks that Liverpool shouldn't be in the CL final? (given it's current format). Most debates are about the format itself, which could affect any team (bar the league champions), so you could as much say that Man Utd. if they were in the CL final didn't deserve to be there if debating about it.

shane86

scojones wrote:

Why must people insist on bringing Liverpool into this conversation? Sweeping comments like that will do this thread no good, redzerdrog.

Its only because people are taling arse about the prem being more important than the CL and being so damn cocky about the whole thing. Its pretty much like rating the confederation cup as more important than the WC (same basic arguement as the Man U fans have been pushing since the loss, in that only the very best teams from each regions internal contest gets to qualify). Australia freq make the Con Cup due to the Oceania tournament being against very small countries with a small player pool, but you can hardly argue their among the worlds very best (not to down them, I supported them in WC 2006 and they put in a great performance)

Nalz

shane86 wrote:

Its pretty much like rating the confederation cup as more important than the WC

:rolleyes:

CL is important imo but not as important as winning the domestic competition where you play the best part of 40 games in 9 months for. Winning the two of them is an achievement.

The league was way more important to Manchester United and their fans this season as it was 4 years since they won their domestic title, and no big team can last that long can they without winning it

Mitch Connor

shane86 wrote:

Its only because people are taling arse about the prem being more important than the CL and being so damn cocky about the whole thing. Its pretty much like rating the confederation cup as more important than the WC (same basic arguement as the Man U fans have been pushing since the loss, in that the very best teams from each regions internal contest gets to qualify)

Personally - I am a lot happier that we won the league, then I would have been if we won the CL. In fact, i wasn't all that bothered when we lost to Milan (i was disappointed witht he manner of the defeat) as the premiership is the one i really wanted United to win. Honestly.

Had United beaten Milan, i would have been delighted, and hoping for a win in Athens; but we aren't there and i don't particularly care. Sure, i am hoping Liverpool don't win yet another European Cup but that is the only reason i care at all.

I suppose you have to look at it in context. Would chelsea fans be disappointed at losing the league (or as disappointed) if they were in the CL final? I don't think so, cause they have won the league for the last two years. United have been off the top of the league for 4 years, and if we'd lost it to chelsea on the last day, not evening winning the CL would have made up for it.
I still love Champions League football, and i still hope United will win it again, but i honestly think winning the CL isn't as big a deal as winning your own league; how can you truly claim to be the best in Europe, if you aren't even the best in your own coutry? It is still a big honour, and if Liverpool win it i fully expect the Liverpool fans to be delighted with it - I simply don't think it is a bigger deal then winning the league.

Nalz

Yeah I wanted the league more, but maybe thats because at the knockout stages I didnt fancy our chances. League was still the big one. To hell with the FA Cup (wouldnt mind taking it now seeing as its Chelsea we're playin)!

I'd love to see Liverpool win the CL, but I dont think I could listen or live with the text messages I'll get if they do! ah best of luck to them...they deserve it after knocking out the favourites and second favourites along the way. Milan will be tough.

Hopefully the league championship will include them and Arsenal next season, Im happy we got our 4 year monkey off our back!

kaisersose77

Tauren wrote:

I simply don't think it is a bigger deal then winning the league.

3/4 years ago you wouldnt be saying that. Suddenly since the league has gone from a 2 horse race to a 4 horse race each year the league has become much important. But before when utd were winning it most years with arsenal withing a few years in between, the champions league was the main thing. Anyone who says otherwise is talking ****e. Ferguson himself said he was obsessed with champions league then and he would still be if Roman never came or Liverpool didnt improve like they have this decade. If Liverpool win the champions league I doubt they'll get as much praise as they would have 5/6 years ago. If they won the league aswell then they would get a lot more praise. Thats the way it is now, you have to totally dominate everything you are in, to get the proper praise. Thats why you still hear a lot about the treble in 99 still. I hear and read more about that than Liverpool winning the chamions league a few years ago. Naturally, since Liverpool are in the final now we'll hear a lot about their last win but mid season it wasnt something I saw mentioned a lot. I support Utd but even though winning the league is a great achievement, I still feel the end of season is still an anti-climax for not winning the champions league aswell.

Mitch Connor

kaisersose77 wrote:

3/4 years ago you wouldnt be saying that. Suddenly since the league has gone from a 2 horse race to a 4 horse race each year the league has become much important. But before when utd were winning it most years with arsenal withing a few years in between, the champions league was the main thing. Anyone who says otherwise is talking ****e. Ferguson himself said he was obsessed with champions league then and he would still be if Roman never came or Liverpool didnt improve like they have this decade. If Liverpool win the champions league I doubt they'll get as much praise as they would have 5/6 years ago. If they won the league aswell then they would get a lot more praise. Thats the way it is now, you have to totally dominate everything you are in, to get the proper praise. I support Utd but even though winning the league is a great achievement, I still feel the end of season is still an anti-climax for some reason.

which is why i said it needs to be looked at in context. The post that made me reply in this thread about winning the league said anyone who rated the league win above winning the CL was talking out of their ass. That comment can be directed at me and i do not agree with it.

At the start of the season, on many forums, their were polls as to which United fans would prefer to win; i said the league. In the build up to the Milan game, there were the same polls again, and again i said the league.

I wanted United to win the league this season. I would have been happy with winning the CL, but the premiership is the one i really wanted; i'm delighted we got it and as a result, i'm not bothered that we aren't going to win the CL.

Yes, it is down to the league being harder to win now then before, but i haven't actually disputed that, its why i spoke about context.

So, to sum up: I strongly disagree with the assertation that any United fan who says that they hold the league in higher regard than the champions league is talking out of their ass.

growler

well done Utd, great season and you showed the resilience needed to win, not looking forward to appluading the new champions at the Bridge tomorrow night, but hopefully we're set for a great Cup Final. Think Chelsea lost the league at Christmas but is was good to see us keep you lot under some form of pressure this long. Well done.

PHB

I'm pretty sure there's a thread about this.

This is a thread about how Man Utd won the English league.

astrofool

At this point in time, which would Liverpool fans like to win next season? The CL or the league?

PiE

League. That trophy's been away from home far too long.

PHB

Also, if you don't start winning it again, in two trophies time, United will have matched the record.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Only if they manage to win it twice more....

Trilla wrote:

and no big team can last that long can they without winning it

United lasted long enough, was it twenty something years ? I think that is prrof enough that big teams can live without the league.

kaisersose77

big difference now compared to that period with all the money invested in football nowadays. If Liverpool dont do aswell in european the next few years and dont win the league then the manager is gonna be under pressure and even more if they dont win the european cup this year.

Nalz

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

United lasted long enough, was it twenty something years ? I think that is prrof enough that big teams can live without the league.

if your talking about big clubs then obviously! Maybe Leeds will win the premiership in 10 or 20 years time! But with big teams with alot of the same players...4 years is a long time with similar bunch of players. (O Shea,Rio,Silvestre,Neville,Giggs,Scholes,Solskjaer,Saha).

adox

I'm delighted but amazed that United managed to win the league this year.Its Fergusons greatest league win imo,firstly because Chelsea raised the bar so much,and secondly because I still think its the weakest of his winning squads.

Mitch Connor

adox wrote:

I'm delighted but amazed that United managed to win the league this year.Its Fergusons greatest league win imo,firstly because Chelsea raised the bar so much,and secondly because I still think its the weakest of his winning squads.

agreed.

Paul Tergat

PiE wrote:

League. That trophy's been away from home far too long.

ziggy67 wrote:

Its arrogant crap like this that makes otherwise neutrals such as myself hate Utd

As a neutral do you hate liverpool as much for comments like this too?


(by the way lads, CHAMPIONS!!!!)

MrPillowTalk

I think Im still locked since the weekend, and Im going to top myself up nicely tomo night.

For the begrudgers who are trying to make out the league isnt the most important prize, there was a thread at the start of the season about what you wanted your team to win most Utd fans wanted the league. If Liverpool fans could remember what it was like to win the league they would probably agree.

Saying that the CL is as important most seasons for Utd but only because most seasons we have won the premiership the season previously.

redspider

You have to say hats off to Man Utd for winning the league this year, and breaking the foreboding monopoly that Chelsea looked like they had.

I for one am on record multiple times about how unsavoury it is to have Abramovich, a Russian oligarch who made his billions through nefarious means (ie: illegal!) and has paid off (ie: bribed) Putin, try to buy success with his play/bling money. That he failed this eason in the league, is welcome, although he was only beaten by the club in England with the most income and the 2nd highest spender after Chelsea.

Money and football success are inextricably linked, although money as we have seen does not guarantee success, thankfully.

Man Utd won the league due to a combination of factors in my opinion:

1) Chelsea intoduced a new system with Ballack and Shevcenko, that didnt settle (still hasnt really) and that cost them points. They went backwards a bit making it that much easier for Man Utd.

2) Man Utd had a better midfield set-up this year, and didnt play Fletcher and Smith in the centre. Giggs was very good in the middle. And Man Utd cane out of the traps flying and didnt have any major hiccups all season.

3) Aveiro and Rooney produced more 'product', and Man Utd's attacking style steamrollered past a lot of teams. The team also won matches 'Chelsea' style in some matches, ie: not playing that well in some games yet getting all 3 points.

4) Like many league winning seasons, they won a couple of matches where they didnt deserve all 3 points, and these differences add up to about +/- 6 pts in a season, enough to pip another team. Variances in a league do not balance out over a mere 38 games.

Man Utd's aim this season was to win back the league, but I think even Ferguson knew it wasnt totally expected and a commendable 2nd and a close fight would have been seen as a successful metric. A league win, a chance of a double and a CL semi-final is very successful no matter who's benchmark you care to use.

Chelsea also were concentrating on the CL, as that is Abramovich's target, and that along with the goings-on within the camp and the loudmouth Mourinho lead to the club getting overstetched.

It will be interesting to see Chelsea players applauding Man Utd's this evening.

Redspider

WhiteWashMan

bit late, but well done to utd. at the start of the season, i thought chelsea would walk it, but they didnt have the same consistancy as the previous 2 years/ they were the only team to completely destroy us this season (although, having said that, they way we played in both games, leeds would have destroyed us).
they played great football, had the best player of the season in ronaldo, and went about the job.

i do hope chelsea win the FA cup though. sorry

BaZmO*

A Spurs fan hoping that Chelsea win the Cup??

I must remember that post for future reference...

PHB

That is quite an unusual sight
Apparently Carvahlo, Shevchenko are defo out, and Drogba is a major injury worry. That would make the game a lot easier.

p.s. If anyone is looking forward to the game tonight, it could be quite boring, as Fergie has said he intends to send out some of the youngsters.

although he was only beaten by the club in England with the most income and the 2nd highest spender after Chelsea.

If you mean in comparision to other clubs,
Just doing a quick look on soccerbase.com (not exact, just based on maths in my head ):
In the last three years net spend:

Chelsea - 262 million
Man Utd - 45 million (incl Ruud which they skip)
Liverpool - 70 million
Spurs - 37 million
Arsenal - 10 million

The Muppet

redspider wrote:

That he failed this eason in the league, is welcome, although he was only beaten by the club in England with the most income and the 2nd highest spender after Chelsea.

Money and football success are inextricably linked, although money as we have seen does not guarantee success, thankfully.


Redspider

I don' believe that to be true. According to Phb's figures United have not been second to Chelsea in the spending league over since they last won the league, Liverpool have . Have you figures to back up your assesment?

If you mean in comparision to other clubs,
Just doing a quick look on soccerbase.com (not exact, just based on maths in my head ):
In the last three years net spend:

Chelsea - 262 million
Man Utd - 45 million (incl Ruud which they skip)
Liverpool - 70 million
Spurs - 37 million
Arsenal - 10 million

herbieflowers

The Muppet wrote:

I don' believe that to be true. According to Phb's figures United have not been second to Chelsea in the spending league over since they last won the league, Liverpool have . Have you figures to back up your assesment?

But it's using the money in buying the right players, not spending money on caclike Liverpool have bought in the last while...well, not cac, just average (for the most part)

PHB

Yep, which is more the fault of the managment than anything else.

MrPillowTalk

redspider wrote:

4) Like many league winning seasons, they won a couple of matches where they didnt deserve all 3 points, and these differences add up to about +/- 6 pts in a season, enough to pip another team. Variances in a league do not balance out over a mere 38 games.

Your posts are usually quite reasoned but this is way off, of course Utd won games they didnt play well in but there were equally games we drew or lost and were by far the better team. The West Ham game when Curbishely took charge springs to mind.

scojones

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, and if it has been then I apologise. I think it's worth noting that United were on top of the league since October. That is quite some feat!



Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/6603119.stm

smemon

Fantastic season for Utd. It will be capped off tonight with a standing ovation from Chelsea

Just like wenger at Arsenal, Mourinho has lost his hard man aura and Chelsea as a result have lost the respect from opposition this season.

2 years ago, sides were beat before they walked out onto the pitch, now it's not the case.

It was the same with Arsenal pre- 'that game' (50 unbeaten and all that) at OT which send arsenal into free fall. They still haven't recovered from that match imo.

Anyway, Utd deserve it this season. They've played the most attractive football and grinded out some fluke results like the 1-0 o'shea win against liverpool.

I agree this is Utd weakest ever championship winning side, however with ronaldo in the form he's been in, it's equivilent to a Roy Keane on the top of his game dragging the side through matches.

You look at the Utd side over the season.

Van Der Saar - good, not superb.

Evra/Heinze - average
Ferdinand - average
Vidic - great
GNeville/o'shea - average
Giggs - good
Scholes - great
Ronaldo -great
Carrick - average
Rooney - average
Smith/Saha - average

So out of the full 11, i'd say only Vidic, Scholes and Ronaldo have been on top of their game.

But that is in itself the spine of the side - defence, midfield, attack.. so if everyone around those 3 keeps it simple, it's enough to beat most sides and that's exactly what's happened.

Chelsea had Drogba and Terry on form. Liverpool had Gerrard. That's why the top 3 are in those positions imo.

PiE

p_larkin99 wrote:

As a neutral do you hate liverpool as much for comments like this too?

So, so far over your head.

herbieflowers

Players aren't going to be on top form throughout the whole of the season...Evra and Neville were highly effective during the first part of the season, overlapping as wingers effectively and adding a lot to the side. The centre backs were rock solid - hardly average. Ronaldo obviously had an excellent season but Scholes and Giggs, imo, rediscovered their form of old. Rooney was great when he needed t be, not overall, but towards the end of the season he was very impressive. Utd stepped up - that was the difference.

TwoShedsJackson

adox wrote:

I'm delighted but amazed that United managed to win the league this year.Its Fergusons greatest league win imo,firstly because Chelsea raised the bar so much,and secondly because I still think its the weakest of his winning squads.

Very true, and they played considerably better football for most of the season as well.

Paul Tergat

PiE wrote:

So, so far over your head.

enlighten me as to how its different? more tolerance for pool fans?

Nunu

smemon wrote:

Fantastic season for Utd. It will be capped off tonight with a standing ovation from Chelsea

Just like wenger at Arsenal, Mourinho has lost his hard man aura and Chelsea as a result have lost the respect from opposition this season.

2 years ago, sides were beat before they walked out onto the pitch, now it's not the case.

It was the same with Arsenal pre- 'that game' (50 unbeaten and all that) at OT which send arsenal into free fall. They still haven't recovered from that match imo.

Anyway, Utd deserve it this season. They've played the most attractive football and grinded out some fluke results like the 1-0 o'shea win against liverpool.

I agree this is Utd weakest ever championship winning side, however with ronaldo in the form he's been in, it's equivilent to a Roy Keane on the top of his game dragging the side through matches.

You look at the Utd side over the season.

Van Der Saar - good, not superb.

Evra/Heinze - average
Ferdinand - average
Vidic - great
GNeville/o'shea - average
Giggs - good
Scholes - great
Ronaldo -great
Carrick - average
Rooney - average
Smith/Saha - average

So out of the full 11, i'd say only Vidic, Scholes and Ronaldo have been on top of their game.

But that is in itself the spine of the side - defence, midfield, attack.. so if everyone around those 3 keeps it simple, it's enough to beat most sides and that's exactly what's happened.

Chelsea had Drogba and Terry on form. Liverpool had Gerrard. That's why the top 3 are in those positions imo.

And what about the phenomonal Essien. He should have been in the team of the year at right-back, Centre half and centre-mid!:D

redspider

PHB wrote:

If you mean in comparision to other clubs, Just doing a quick look on soccerbase.com (not exact, just based on maths in my head ): In the last three years net spend:

Chelsea - 262 million
Man Utd - 45 million (incl Ruud which they skip)
Liverpool - 70 million
Spurs - 37 million
Arsenal - 10 million

I think it was discussed in a thread when Deloitte published their report. At that time, now that I recall, I remarked how close in fact Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd were in terms of their spending.

I guess historically over the seasons Man Utd's spend has been higher but now its clearly closer, perhaps a sign of how much profit the Glazer's have to extract to pay off their leveraged buyout (ie: debt).

Here are figures collated from each clubs financial reports and also using the Deloitte report figures in Euro:

                Revenue  Spend  Profit/Loss
Manchester U    242.6    169.5    73.1
Chelsea         221.0    338.6  -117.6
Arsenal         192.4    175.8    16.6
Liverpool       176.0    169.8    -6.2

These figures are for 2005/06. Chelsea spent twice as much as the other big-3 !! Note that spending includes salaries as well as purchase/selling differences and is a figure that many fans tend to ignore. For example, Arsenal have spent a fortune over the years paying huge salaries to Henry and Viera, and these figures do not hit the headlines as large transfers, etc. Purchase costs are amortised over the duration of a players contract. So, as another example, Wayne Rooney's main cost will be his salary, not his purchase price.

We'll know once the clubs produce their financial reports how much success they "bought" or not. I wouldnt be surprised if Man Utd were 2nd in the spending table behind Chelsea for 2006-07. Overall, the long-term trend say over 5 years should be collated to give a more complete view, as investments in previous seasons are of benefit in subsequent ones.

Redspider

redspider

redspider>
4) Like many league winning seasons, they won a couple of matches where they didnt deserve all 3 points, and these differences add up to about +/- 6 pts in a season, enough to pip another team. Variances in a league do not balance out over a mere 38 games.

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Your posts are usually quite reasoned but this is way off, of course Utd won games they didnt play well in but there were equally games we drew or lost and were by far the better team. The West Ham game when Curbishely took charge springs to mind.

I'm not singling Man Utd out in terms of this aspect of league football. Its basically something which happens to many teams in many leagues. eg: PSV beat Ajax by one goal in goal difference, to me that's equivalent to a tie!

When the gap is close (about 6 pts or less), the teams have effectively been very similar over the season, and lucky moments do not even themselves out. I'm not saying that Man Utd were lucky, I think they deserved the league title. All I'm saying is that the gap is around 6 pts which is within the bounds of variances outside all teams control. That's football.

Redspider

The Muppet

redspider wrote:

I think it was discussed in a thread when Deloitte published their report. At that time, now that I recall, I remarked how close in fact Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd were in terms of their spending.

I guess historically over the seasons Man Utd's spend has been higher but now its clearly closer, perhaps a sign of how much profit the Glazer's have to extract to pay off their leveraged buyout (ie: debt).

Here are figures collated from each clubs financial reports and also using the Deloitte report figures in Euro:

                Revenue  Spend  Profit/Loss
Manchester U    242.6    169.5    73.1
Chelsea         221.0    338.6  -117.6
Arsenal         192.4    175.8    16.6
Liverpool       176.0    169.8    -6.2

These figures are for 2005/06. Chelsea spent twice as much as the other big-3 !! Note that spending includes salaries as well as purchase/selling differences and is a figure that many fans tend to ignore. For example, Arsenal have spent a fortune over the years paying huge salaries to Henry and Viera, and these figures do not hit the headlines as large transfers, etc. Purchase costs are amortised over the duration of a players contract. So, as another example, Wayne Rooney's main cost will be his salary, not his purchase price.

We'll know once the clubs produce their financial reports how much success they "bought" or not. I wouldnt be surprised if Man Utd were 2nd in the spending table behind Chelsea for 2006-07. Overall, the long-term trend say over 5 years should be collated to give a more complete view, as investments in previous seasons are of benefit in subsequent ones.

Redspider

So you don't have the figures to support your opinion that United were second Highest spenders behind Chelsea. In fact your figures show that United were in fouth Place behind Chelsea Liverpool and Arsenal.

Re your assumption that United Salaries for 06/07 may well put them in second ,I would reference the recent thread here revealing players salary and point out that both Liverpool and Arsenal had players on higher Salaries than United highest earner. That would suggest to me that again your expressed opinion could well be incorrect.

redspider

The Muppet wrote:

So you don't have the figures to support your opinion that United were second Highest spenders behind Chelsea. In fact your figures show that United were in fouth Place behind Chelsea Liverpool and Arsenal.

Re your assumption that United Salaries for 06/07 may well put them in second ,I would reference the recent thread here revealing players salary and point out that both Liverpool and Arsenal had players on higher Salaries than United highest earner. That would suggest to me that again your expressed opinion could well be incorrect.

As stated, the figures for this season aren't out yet, so we will all just have to wait and see.

In the meantime, you should do an exercise and find out how much Man Utd have spent in comparison to the other clubs over the last 5 seasons. The data is in each clubs financial reports. Doing that may prove one way or the other which club has spent the 2nd most.

2005/06 is:

                Revenue  Spend  Profit/Loss
Manchester U    242.6    169.5    73.1
Chelsea         221.0    338.6  -117.6
Arsenal         192.4    175.8    16.6
Liverpool       176.0    169.8    -6.2

Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal spent a financially equivalent amount in 2005/06, as other values not detailed do need to be taken into account to do an apples-to-apples comparison, such as trading effects, ground investments, other spending, offsets, tax variances, etc.

But the key point which I mentioned which you chose to ignore is that the Glazer's have upped the profit levels and have selectively managed the spend down. That would indicate, in lieu of a finacial 5 year analysis, that Man Utds spend was higher equivalently in 2004/05 and most likely more than that of Arsenal and Liverpool, the fruits of which were used this season. Likewise for seasons spending prior to that.

Redspider

PHB

That would be quite odd logic. Basically, because you have an assumption that United used to spend more, and now that the data shows clearly that doesn't happen under Glazier, therefore, they must have spend more before.

People always talk about what United spend, but we get a lot of it back. Ronaldo was bought with Beckham's money. Rooney was also in a large part paid for by that money.
Veron might have cost a lot, but he got a lot of money off Chelsea to offset the cost.
Also I think two months ago United sold another youth player to make a profit of 50 million or something nuts off the youth system.

Liverpool spend just as much as United, it's just United spend it a lot smarter as I've talked about before. Rafa buys stop-gap players, lots of them, instead of buying one big player a season, like Fergie tends to do lately.

Over the past couple of years, in terms of net spend, United and Liverpool have been pretty equal. In terms of wages, I don't know, but I can't imagine a huge difference. Arsenal have spent lower but had similar wages.
Chelsea have spent more on both.

astrofool

well those figures are wrong wherver you took them from, 176-169.8 = +6.2 not -6.2 for Liverpool.

leninbenjamin

Arsenal's revenues should increase substantially in the next set of figures due to the opening of the stadium.

Chelsea's and Liverpools spending can only increase whenever they do go ahead with their new stadia plans, (enough i would imagine to put Liverpool comfortably ahead of Man U).

Thanx 4 The Fish

Yes but they still have to service the debt on the new stadium which I would imagine is not insubstantial.

herbieflowers

aren't Arsenal in debt because of the stadium?

leninbenjamin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Yes but they still have to service the debt on the new stadium which I would imagine is not insubstantial.

yeah but would they not have started forking out for the stadium by the time the 05/06 figures were calculated?

and yeah Herbie, they are in substantial debt because of it, and Man Utd because of the glazers. i thought both clubs have structured the debts pretty well though, so that they wont be ploughing every penny that comes into the club into them.

The Muppet

redspider wrote:

As stated, the figures for this season aren't out yet, so we will all just have to wait and see.



Redspider

Lets discuss the issue with figures that have been published insteed of conjecture and what might or might not be .

Since United last won the title 2003 they purchased players values at £114.62 million . In that period they have sold players values at £76.7 million. Thats a nett spend of £37.5 Million.

Over the same period Liverpool have spent £114.84 Million on players and have recouped £47.327 million from the sale of players. Thats a nett spend of £67.513 million .

Liverpool have spent almost twice as much on players as Man Utd have in this period so obviously your statement that UTD are currently the second highest spender in the premiership is just not true.

Below is the list of transfers and values for each club which I have sourced from the Internet. I have used the maximum values for each player (eg Rooney signed for 20 million possibly rising to 27 million depending on appearances etc carrick is the same , I used the higher figure) .

I would also point out that Liverpool have a lot more undisclosed transfers than United so I would think that the figues are actually slanted in Liverpools favour. Macherano won't be cheap.

I don't believe Glaziers debt is relevantto the point being discussed Ie spending money on players to be successful, which is what you implied when making the point. Everone knows United earns more than any other premiership club.

Manchester Utd.

Players In

2003 (Summer)
David Bellion - Sunderland to Manchester United (2 mil)
Eric Djemba-Djemba - Nantes to Manchester United (3.5 mil)
Tim Howard - MetroStars (MLS) to Manchester United (2.2 mil)
Cristiano Ronaldo - Sporting Lisbon to Manchester United (12.2 mil)
Kleberson - Atletico Paranaense to Manchester United (5.9 mil)
2004 (January)
Louis Saha - Fulham to Manchester United (12.82 mil)
2004 (Summer)
Alan Smith - Leeds United to Manchester United (7 mil)
Gabriel Heinze - Paris Saint-Germain to Manchester United (6.9 mil)
Wayne Rooney - Everton to Manchester United (27 mil)
2005 (January)
None
2005 (Summer)
Edwin van der Sar - Fulham to Manchester United (undisclosed)
Park Ji-Sung - PSV Eindhoven to Manchester United (4 mil)
2006 (January)
John Obi Mikel - Lyn to Manchester United (undisclosed)
Nemanja Vidic - Spartak Moscow to Manchester United (7 mil)
Patrice Evra - Monaco to Manchester United (5.5 mil)
2006 (Summer)
Michael Carrick - Tottenham Hotspurs to Manchester United (18.6 mil)
Tomasz Kuszczak - West Brom to Manchester United (swap)

Total £114.62 Million


Players Out

David Beckham - Manchester United to Real Madrid (25 mil)
Juan Sebastian Veron - Manchester United to Chelsea (15 mil)
2004 (January)
Fabien Barthez - Manchester United to Olympique de Marseille released
2004 (Summer)
Nicky Butt - Manchester United to Newcastle United (2 mil)
Diego Forlan - Manchester United to Villareal (reportedly 3 mil)
2005 (January)
Eric Djemba-Djemba - Manchester United to Aston Villa (3.5 mil)
2005 (Summer)
Phil Neville - Manchester United to Everton (3 mil plus)
Kleberson - Manchester United to Besiktas (2.5 mil)
David Bellion - Manchester United to West Ham (season-long loan)
2006 (January)
>David Bellion - Manchester United to Nice (6 month loan)
2006 (Summer)
John Obi Mikel - Manchester United to Chelsea (12 mil)
Jonathan Spector - Manchester United to West Ham United (0.5 mil)
David Bellion - Manchester United to Nice (undisclosed)
Quinton Fortune - Manchester United to Bolton Wanderers (free)
Ruud van Nistelrooy - Manchester United to Real Madrid (10.2 mil)

Gerard Pique, Bardsley, Howard, Lee Martin and Ben Foster (out on loan)

Total In £76.7 million

Liverpool Fc

Players In

Player From Fee Date
Steve*Finnan Fulham £3,500,000 01.07.2003
Anthony*Le Tallec Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Florent S*Pongolle Le Havre £1,500,000* 01.07.2003
Harry*Kewell Leeds United £5,000,000 09.07.2003
Carl*Medjani St Etienne Free 08.08.2003
Paul*Jones Southampton On Loan* 09.01.2004
Djibril*Cissé Auxerre £14,500,000* 01.07.2004
Josemi*Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004
Antonio*Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004
Xabi*Alonso Real Sociedad £10,700,000 20.08.2004
Luis*Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004
Mauricio*Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005
Fernando*Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005
Scott*Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005
Josh*Mimms Rotherham United £50,000 16.06.2005
Antonio*Barragan Sevilla £240,000 04.07.2005
Boudewijn*Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005
Jose*Reina Villareal £6,000,000 04.07.2005
Mohamed*Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005
Peter*Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005
Godwin*Antwi Real Zaragoza Unknown 15.08.2005
Miki*Roque Lleida Unknown 15.08.2005
Jack*Hobbs Lincoln City £150,000* 18.08.2005
Besian*Idrizaj LASK Linz £190,000* 22.08.2005
Ramon*Calliste Free Transfer Free* 29.08.2005
Mark*Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005
Paul*Anderson Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Jan*Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006
Daniel*Agger Brøndby £5,800,000 12.01.2006
David*Martin MK Dons £250,000* 12.01.2006
Robbie*Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006
Craig*Bellamy Norwich £6,000,000 01.07.2006
Gabriel*Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006
Fábio*Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
Jermaine*Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
Dirk*Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
Nabil*El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006
Astrit *Ajdarevic Falkenberg £750,000* 11.01.2007
Emiliano*Insúa Boca Juniors On Loan* 11.01.2007
Daniele*Padelli Sampdoria On Loan* 12.01.2007
Jordy*Brouwer Ajax Undisclosed* 24.01.2007
Francisco*Durán Malaga £66,000* 30.01.2007
Ronald*Huth Tacuary FC Undisclosed 31.01.2007
Álvaro*Arbeloa Deportivo £2,500,000 31.01.2007
Javier*Mascherano West Ham On Loan 20.02.2007

Total in £114.84 million

Players Out

Bernard*Diomede Ajaccio Free 01.07.2003
Pegguy*Arphexad Coventry Free* 01.07.2003
Patrik*Berger Portsmouth Free 01.07.2003
Vegard*Heggem Unknown Free 01.07.2003
Daniel*Sjolund Djurgården Free 15.01.2004
Paul*Jones Southampton On Loan* 28.01.2004
Abel*Xavier Hannover 96 Free* 02.02.2004
Emile*Heskey Birmingham £6,250,000* 18.05.2004
Markus*Babbel VfB Stuttgart Free 16.07.2004
Danny*Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
Michael*Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
Stephane*Henchoz Celtic Free 28.01.2005
Vladimir*Smicer Bordeaux Free 13.06.2005
El Hadji*Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
Mauricio*Pellegrino Alaves Free* 17.06.2005
Alou*Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
Mark*Smyth Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Paul*Harrison Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Richie*Partridge Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Patrice*Luzi Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
Gregory*Vignal Portsmouth Free* 01.07.2005
Igor*Biscan Panathinaikos Free* 01.07.2005
Jon*Otsemobor Rotherham United Free* 01.07.2005
Antonio*Nunez Celta Vigo £2,000,000* 29.07.2005
Milan*Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
John*Welsh Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
Josemi*Rey Villareal Player Exchange* 02.01.2006
Zak*Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
Bruno*Cheyrou Rennes Undisclosed 29.06.2006
Ramon*Calliste Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
Robbie*Foy Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
David*Raven Carlisle £0* 03.07.2006
Fernando*Morientes Valencia £3,000,000 05.07.2006
Dietmar*Hamann Bolton Free 11.07.2006
Antonio*Barragan Deportivo £675,000 03.08.2006
Djimi*Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
Carl*Medjani Lorient Free 12.08.2006
Neil*Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
Jan*Kromkamp PSV Eindhoven £1,750,000 31.08.2006
Chris*Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
Darren*Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
Stephen*Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
Salif*Diao Stoke Free 25.01.2007
Florent S*Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva £2,700,000 04.05.2007


Total £47.325

I'm assuming my sources and calculations are accurate, looking through I dont see any glaring ommisions or errors.