Reserve Teams for the Lower Leagues?

darkskol

What do people think of the idea that Rafa was going on about, about having a Pool reserves playing in a lower league or do you think that this would be too detrimental to the smaller clubs?

Malice

darkskol wrote:

What do people think of the idea that Rafa was going on about, about having a Pool reserves playing in a lower league or do you think that this would be too detrimental to the smaller clubs?

This is a huge topic and probably deserves a thread of it's own if there isn't one already there. Something has to be done as young English players just don't get enough match practice to develop their skills. The cream will always rise to the top but the trick is to maximise the results with those players who might be late developers or just not quite world class.

GuanYin

Agreed, I was surprised we didn't have a more active thread on this.

KdjaCL

What about the clubs they will replace? shockingly they do exist outside of the premier league.


kdjac

dcarroll

But is football about England winning the world cup and producing world class players?
In my opinion it is much more about the wider community than that
Football should give players a chance to play first team football for one of Englands 92 professional league clubs rather than for a reserve team.
I would think it is a lot more imprtant for the 10,000 or so who watch their local team, who they have probably followed for their whole lives, like Scunthorpe, Grimsby or whoever play week in week out, it certainly would mean more to them than the few hundred who would probably turn up to Liverpool reserve matches thinking "oh that craig linfield chap might be good in 2 or 3 years", not really bothered if they win the match or not. But last weekend I'm sure you will have seen grown men cry, whether in jubilation or in sadness as their beloved teams were promoted / relegated in the Football League. Can anyone here honestly say someone would cry if Liverpool Reserves / u20s got relegated from League One to League Two?

GuanYin

KdjaCL wrote:

What about the clubs they will replace? shockingly they do exist outside of the premier league.

I think that's the least of the issues, after all, they could start them in the non-league divisions and have it so they could be promoted only as far as the division under their parent team.

The issue for me is the fairness for the other clubs. Having Liverpool or United reserves in, say, League 1 is all well and good. But what if Team A fighting for promotion plays them a week before a Liverpool injury crisis and Team B fighting for promotion plays them after?

You can make the case that the clubs have to obey the transfer window and can only move players then but honestly, I can't see how you stop a club moving a player between it's own teams.

As far as I'm concerned, the reserve team is for match fitness for squad players and a chance for youth players to come through the ranks. If you want your young players to taste competition, send them out on loan.

PHB

I'd rather the Italian way of doing things to be honest, a lot more loaning going on than currently does.

What teams get extra teams? I'm pretty sure a lot of teams would want them. How do you decide who gets them?
Loaning is the way to go imo.

Zebra3

dcarroll wrote:

But is football about England winning the world cup and producing world class players?

No. I don't think anyone thinks that. Not even the English.

Paul Tergat

I think its a very stupid idea!

Pepe LeFrits

NO NO NO NO NO!

Loans should be made illegal as well as far as I'm concerned, except for short term loans when an injury crisis occurs.

Kingp35

darkskol wrote:

What do people think of the idea that Rafa was going on about, about having a Pool reserves playing in a lower league or do you think that this would be too detrimental to the smaller clubs?

It is a stupid idea and would totally ruin football. Its geared towards the big clubs enough as it is. Horrible idea.

Paul Tergat

Kingp35 wrote:

It is a stupid idea and would totally ruin football. Its geared towards the big clubs enough as it is. Horrible idea.

wow we agree!

Paul Tergat

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

NO NO NO NO NO!

Loans should be made illegal as well as far as I'm concerned, except for short term loans when an injury crisis occurs.

WHY?

Pepe LeFrits

They only serve to benefit the big teams, and they have a big enough advantage as it is.

Smaller teams don't generally need to loan their young players out to blood them, they do it themselves. It's only the bigger premiership teams (United, Arsenal, Chelsea etc) who really do it. They use their financial clout to buy up the most talented young players en masse and farm them out on loan. Arsenal had 8 players away on loan this season, and I heard United had 14? Utterly ridiculous.

darkskol

I dont think it is a good idea myself. I think players could be loaned out more to the lower divisions with conditions favouring the smaller teams who would be accomadating these players. Perhaps the smaller club should not have to pay the wages of the loan player or maybe have a set amount of time from when the player is loaned out until when they are able to be recalled.

Pepe LeFrits

darkskol wrote:

I dont think it is a good idea myself. I think players could be loaned out more to the lower divisions with conditions favouring the smaller teams who would be accomadating these players. Perhaps the smaller club should not have to pay the wages of the loan player or maybe have a set amount of time from when the player is loaned out until when they are able to be recalled.

That's the way the big teams do the loans at present.

However, if loans did not exist, the big teams would only be able to accomodate a certain number of young players in their reserve/youth teams. The rest would go to the smaller clubs in the PL and in the lower divisions. That would give a lot more benefit to those clubs than getting the privilege of having the player as an 18 year old for one season.

Similarly, if the big clubs got a reputation for not giving their young players a chance to break through, and without the option of going out on loan, the young players wouldn't go there in the first place and would stay at the smaller clubs, which again would benefit them tremendously.

GuanYin

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

if loans did not exist, the big teams would only be able to accomodate a certain number of young players in their reserve/youth teams. The rest would go to the smaller clubs in the PL and in the lower divisions. That would give a lot more benefit to those clubs than getting the privilege of having the player as an 18 year old for one season.

Similarly, if the big clubs got a reputation for not giving their young players a chance to break through, and without the option of going out on loan, the young players wouldn't go there in the first place and would stay at the smaller clubs, which again would benefit them tremendously.

That's actually a really really good point.

In fact, you've convinced me.

Down with loans!

therecklessone

psi wrote:

I think that's the least of the issues, after all, they could start them in the non-league divisions and have it so they could be promoted only as far as the division under their parent team.

Interesting. I'd assume they'd have to start at least at the same level as AFC Wimbledon (The Combined Counties League) at level 9 in the English football league system. Assuming the better sides would get promotion year on year (and most would) that means after five years a number would be on the verge of Football League 2. As they continued to climb the ladder, they would displace other professional clubs who could only make their way down the leagues.

Of the current PL, I'd expect the following to compete (or invest extra funds):

ManYoo
Chelsea
Liverpool
Arsenal
Spurs
Newcastle (with new ownership)
Aston Villa
Everton
Boro (very good record with their youth set up)
Man City (with their new ownership)

Not sure about the reserve or youth set ups at Blackburn or Bolton (though Bolton won their division of the reserve league this year) and Reading finished top of the southern reserve league ahead of Watford.

Suggests that at least 10 professional leagues would exit the Football League to allow the PL sides blood their kids. Regardless of how the reserve teams won promotion, that is undesirable. More importantly, the Football League would never go for it (and rightly so)

I'd prefer if the Carling Cup lost its UEFA Cup place, and the PL sides were limited to entering an under-21 side, with the PL sides compensating the Football League sides for loss of earnings (TV and gate receipts)

~Rebel~

Pepe makes a very good point.

I definately dont agree with the reserve teams playing in normal leagues for all the many reason already outlined.

Though i agree with Pepe, i still think loans are perhaps the best way for the bigger clubs to blood their players in a compeitive league. In a more structured and stringent way then is currently there though. Perhaps an agreement that all loan deals will last the full term agreed upon, be it quarter of a season, half a season or a year, no cutting it short unless the loanee club wants to.

Also that each bigger club could have an agreement with, say a championship club that they will take the most promising kids they think are up to scratch, and only this club can loan these players in the championship. Then say the next tier of player goes to a league 1 team with the same agreements, so that a few players end up together at 1 team in each division down to, say league 2. Should probably be a limit of loanees to each club, say 3 or 4. This way the players will still get to play together with a couple of their future teammates, which is one of the main reasons rafa wants a league team together.

I hope that makes sense.

zAbbo

psi wrote:

I think that's the least of the issues, after all, they could start them in the non-league divisions and have it so they could be promoted only as far as the division under their parent team.

The issue for me is the fairness for the other clubs. Having Liverpool or United reserves in, say, League 1 is all well and good. But what if Team A fighting for promotion plays them a week before a Liverpool injury crisis and Team B fighting for promotion plays them after?

Wait a mo, Rafa is proposing a development system similar to La Liga, where the likes of Barce B & C pick their squads at the start of the season, and there's no swopping of players through the different squads.

It makes sense, as the reserve league in England isn't great (for anyone who plays FM)

You'd rather get your reserve players 40 games a season, instead of 10-15 in the reserves.

I'm not sure on the exact details, the downside is that if you have a player needing match practice, he doesn't get it because he can't switch squads.

Kingp35

zabbo wrote:

Wait a mo, Rafa is proposing a development system similar to La Liga, where the likes of Barce B & C pick their squads at the start of the season, and there's no swopping of players through the different squads.

It makes sense, as the reserve league in England isn't great (for anyone who plays FM)

You'd rather get your reserve players 40 games a season, instead of 10-15 in the reserves.

I'm not sure on the exact details, the downside is that if you have a player needing match practice, he doesn't get it because he can't switch squads.

No matter how its done a professional club will lose a league place so the big clubs can benefit. Its a stupid idea and should never be implemented.

Zebra3

Kingp35 wrote:

No matter how its done a professional club will lose a league place so the big clubs can benefit. Its a stupid idea and should never be implemented.

Would you have gone for it five years ago?

Kingp35

Zebra3 wrote:

Would you have gone for it five years ago?

Nah Leeds wont be in League Two for a few years yet

No I remember a thread like this was done on boards before and I said the same thing. I have a serious problem with the way football is turning out with the big clubs getting everything set up to suit them.

el rabitos

personally i would prefer a stronger relationship with feeder clubs, premiership clubs loan players to feeder clubs in no higher then league one, a limit of 5 or 6 players to be sent to each feeder club for a max of 2 years and minumum of 1.

the feeder clubs should be kept as close geographically to the parent club as possible.

Zaph

Apart from the impact on the league, do we really want to see what happened in Spain in 1980 happening in English football? That year the Copa del Rey final was between Real Madrid and Castilla. For those of you unfamiliar with Castilla, following a rule change in the early 90s they were renamed Real Madrid B. The first team beat their reserves 6-1 in the final. All 92 league teams enter the FA Cup, and while it's improbable that a reserve team would get to the FA Cup final, there are plenty of rounds before it where a team could be drawn against its reserve team. And I'd rather not see draws being messed with to keep teams apart like UEFA and FIFA are so fond of doing.