"Heeeeeeelp!!" from France

Hyla arborea

My ****ing gormless fellow countrymen have just elected a mixture of Bush, Berlusconi and Thatcher -in worse- accomodating with sects and advocating dangerous ideas about genetics (these are mere examples).
One of his main chacteristics = an impressive propensity to lie. He has lied dozens and dozens of times, claiming things, then maintaining the opposite later...

The most dismaying is that he would probably have been defeated if the media (mostly friends of his. Long live democracy, isn't it?) hadn't been campaigning for him for five years...

Please, send troops in France to arrest him, drop a bomb on the Elysée palace, propose a European amendment to keep hysterical dwarves from being president,... do something!!

Anyway, I'd like to apologize in advance for all the possible crap he's going to do or say as regards foreign policy (sorry, 46% of us did not want that)...

Well, let's see what happens for the parliamentary elections...

A disgusted and worried French girl (about to spend 3 months in Ireland, by the way)


P.S.: how are things presented in Ireland?

brianthebard

Royale didn't win then? Sorry haven't been following the elections lately.

Zambia

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0506/france.html

there you go , no report of him being that bad

El Stuntman

I would have voted for him if I was French...

your reaction seems a bit hysterical tbh

wes

I find peoples opinions on Sarkozy seem to vary between adoration and hatred. Not sure what to make of him.

Tea drinker

Tut tut!
Yeah she would have been a great image for france, yer man looks like a slimeball.

Sure we only elect women as president in Ireland.
Well have to give ye some lessons.
What's the french for democracy?

brianthebard

Its a bit early to know how it will turn out, but this suggests that France has taken a stronger right wing turn.

layke

Aye the GF is from France and she is not happy about it either. This guy is very black and white from what i've been told, there is no in between. She seems to agree in thinking he will be a bad egg.

Hyla arborea

I would have voted for him if I was French...

your reaction seems a bit hysterical tbh

Okay, forget about the lamentation, bomb dropping and all that (second-degree); I'm only trying not to take things too gloomily.
Yet, what I said about him is true and I don't think it is overstated. A majority of people have voted for him because, like you, they are deluding themself about him.
If I had been of age in 2002, I would have voted for Chirac against Le Pen without hesitating even if I disapprove of the former. But in case of a second ballot Sarkozy vs Le Pen last Sunday, I couldn't have said "let's vote for the "less worse"" as they did in 2002, because it is hard to tell which one of both is. You see what I mean?

I find peoples opinions on Sarkozy seem to vary between adoration and hatred. Not sure what to make of him.

Indeed. But you know, I am not used to adorating or hating politicians; the point is: this man's methods and opinion are worrying.

Hyla arborea

To Zambia 232 and brianthebard : all right, thanks for the links.

Sure we only elect women as president in Ireland.
Well have to give ye some lessons.
What's the french for democracy?

Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

wes

Hyla arborea wrote:

Indeed. But you know, I am not used to adorating or hating politicians; the point is: this man's methods and opinion are worrying.

Well from what I have read he has said some worrying things, but then I have that option as I don't live in France. Probably a good thing since I have an Arab first name.

brianthebard

Hyla arborea wrote:

To Zambia 232 and brianthebard : all right, thanks for the links.


Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

S'cool, yo can always stay with me if France turns bad:D

Sand

"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

Id agree, France seems to be under mob rule. Electoral mandates appear to be meaningless when put to the test against organised street protests. I wouldnt worry too much about Sarkozy given that he actually has yet to face the 46% and their mob on the streets. His 54% vote wont mean much then.

luckylucky

Don't know much about Sarkozy, I tend to dislike politicians with too extreme views on anything, so I proably wouldn't like him by the sound of things. Still the Americans voted for Bush twice, Putin is largely regarded as a hero in Russia by the common man anyway, Berlusconi in Italy.... and going back to history Hitler in Germany(also elected). Seems like there is a large proportion of complete morons in every society that ends up electing these types of individuals, so well at least the 54% in France are not unique in that regard.

extragon

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

mike65

Sarko is what that deluded country needs - a kick up the arse. 35 hour week (as standard maximum ) is for the for birds.

BTW if you don't like Nasty Nics ideas what the hell are you doing here - we are capialist pig- dogs to a man!

Mike.

lostexpectation

extragon wrote:

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

sarko wants to keep allow short term cheap workers but give no right so health care for it, he the one that wants globalisation.

Chakar

lostexpectation wrote:

sarko wants to keep allow short term cheap workers but give no right so health care for it, he the one that wants globalisation.

In my opinion that is good. France desperately needs Sarkozy to follow through with his reforms and from what I've heard and read about him so far I'm confident he will do so. Hopefully Newsweek or the Economist will have a story about the 23rd President of France.

SeanW

Hyla arborea wrote:

Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).

In Ireland, the presidents powers are mostly symbolic, like a glorified ambassador. The vast bulk of real power lies with the legislature (Dáil Eireann) and the courts.

However, the President does have some constitutional authority, which the government found out to its dismay a year or two ago, when Minister for Health Mary Harney introduced legislation retroactively legalising nursing home charges, Ms. McAleese quickly sent said legislation to the Supreme Court because she felt it was repugnant to the Constituion. The Supreme Court agreed.

As for France, although I don't know too much about it, I was rooting for Francis Bayrou. It would have been best, I thought, if a centrist could start a process of reform without pissing off so many people.

Sand wrote:

I wouldnt worry too much about Sarkozy given that he actually has yet to face the 46% and their mob on the streets.

You need to stop watching Fox News.

Hyla arborea

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

I don't think either, he only develops racists ideas out of opportunism (which doesn't prevent him from being close to the far-right in some respects).
Ha ha, some people still believe that ultra-liberalism creates decent jobs? Come on...
Sure, I wouldn't trust S. Royal as regards such matters as economy, but she would have worked with Dominique Strauss-Khan, considered -even by many of his opponents- as one of the best economists in the current political scene.
To go back to Sarkozy: as I said, he is a thorough opportunist. If something he said hasn't pleased a strategic part of his electorate, he will manage to say the opposite. After raking through the far-right voters, he showed up declaring himself Jean Jaurès's and Léon Blum's heir, can you believe it? He was also supposed to represent the Gaullistes, although De Gaulle would have hated his policy (I even wonder if he wouldn't have voted for Royal)...

Sarko is what that deluded country needs - a kick up the arse. 35 hour week (as standard maximum ) is for the for birds.

BTW if you don't like Nasty Nics ideas what the hell are you doing here - we are capialist pig- dogs to a man!

Mike.

You cannot model a country on another with a totally different profile.
... anyway, be careful with foreign delicate points... you wouldn't like a Froggy to lecture you about the respective roles of Church and State, abortion and that kind of things, would you?
("dogs to a man"?)

Hyla arborea

In my opinion that is good. France desperately needs Sarkozy to follow through with his reforms and from what I've heard and read about him so far I'm confident he will do so.

So you must have heard and read the same stuff as the people who voted for him...

In Ireland, the presidents powers are mostly symbolic, like a glorified ambassador. The vast bulk of real power lies with the legislature (Dáil Eireann) and the courts.

However, the President does have some constitutional authority, which the government found out to its dismay a year or two ago, when Minister for Health Mary Harney introduced legislation retroactively legalising nursing home charges, Ms. McAleese quickly sent said legislation to the Supreme Court because she felt it was repugnant to the Constituion. The Supreme Court agreed.

As for France, although I don't know too much about it, I was rooting for Francis Bayrou. It would have been best, I thought, if a centrist could start a process of reform without pissing off so many people.

Okay, thanks for the info; it's interesting.
About François Bayrou: actually, he's right-winged. His "I reunite everyone" thing is a big strategic stunt (still, I wish he had been elected...).

Manic Moran

"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

Colour me confused here, but if the other guy got more votes than your guy, and is declared winnier, isn't that democracy?

NTM

mike65

Hyla arborea wrote:

You cannot model a country on another with a totally different profile.
... anyway, be careful with foreign delicate points... you wouldn't like a Froggy to lecture you about the respective roles of Church and State, abortion and that kind of things, would you?
("dogs to a man"?)

"Capitalist Pig-Dogs" my jokey use of an abusive term as favoured by Commies! "to a man" that is to say we are all capitalists in this country these days.

As for Church and State, France has it exactly right, this country is in a muddle, state education which is built on Catholic resources and ideology ditto the health system to some degree. Completely wrong.

Read this and weep

Mike.

brianthebard

Speak for yourself Mike, we're not all capitalists :rolleyes:

Judt

I would think a country that has had the socialists introducing such measures as the 35 hour week in an attempt to get more people jobs (math that adds up on the back of an expensive napkin, I'm sure) and which has given you 22% unemployment among the 20somethings leaving college would see the need for a Thatcherite kick up the economic arse.

Face it, if you want to turn your economy around and make France a country that can hit at the level it should be hitting at, you can't have more social welfare and less taxes and working hours. Doesn't work that way. You gotta earn it before you can spend it. The French tendency to strike and then riot at the first sign of a hard days work (crass over simplification) has got you to where you are.

Smell the coffee. The Germans recognized the need for these hard measures, got Merkel and she's one of the most popular - and successful - German leaders since reunification.

The hard pills may not win you many friends in the short run, but if everyone has a good chance of getting a job in five years time I can see Sarko getting his second term. Of course he has big battles to win - or even decide to fight. France either takes this opportunity, or else it gets even poorer.

brianthebard

Does the German example work? There's still about 5million unemployed there. When the socialists introduced the 35 hour week unemployment dropped steadily for several years but I agree its time to rethink that system, its not working for them any more.

Hyla arborea

Quote:
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).


Colour me confused here, but if the other guy got more votes than your guy, and is declared winnier, isn't that democracy?

NTM

Obviously, a smiley is not enough...

(What is "NTM" for? In French it means "f*** your mother" (sorry))

I would think a country that has had the socialists introducing such measures as the 35 hour week in an attempt to get more people jobs (math that adds up on the back of an expensive napkin, I'm sure) and which has given you 22% unemployment among the 20somethings leaving college would see the need for a Thatcherite kick up the economic arse.

Face it, if you want to turn your economy around and make France a country that can hit at the level it should be hitting at, you can't have more social welfare and less taxes and working hours. Doesn't work that way. You gotta earn it before you can spend it. The French tendency to strike and then riot at the first sign of a hard days work (crass over simplification) has got you to where you are.

Smell the coffee. The Germans recognized the need for these hard measures, got Merkel and she's one of the most popular - and successful - German leaders since reunification.

The hard pills may not win you many friends in the short run, but if everyone has a good chance of getting a job in five years time I can see Sarko getting his second term. Of course he has big battles to win - or even decide to fight. France either takes this opportunity, or else it gets even poorer.

It is not that simple, you have to master a country's history, thinking and context before asserting such theories.

As respects the 35h, they've been much criticized but the UMP never withdrew it. Sarkozy and his friend Breton were in position to do so.
Besides, do you know when unemployment reached its lowest rate during the last few decades? Under Jospin's guv (precisely the guy who established the 35h). That said, as Brian pointed out, the 35h have to be remodel (though not in a "Thatcherite" way): you cannot work the same number of hour sitting at an office or doing a health-wrecking work.

? I didn't know that France was supposed to hit at a special level. Who cares if we don't have have the biggest economic growth?

As for Germany: thanks, Brian; moreover I'm not sure Merkel is that popular.

Ah... something important: under the UMP, unemployment figures have been decreasing. Yet, unemployment itself hasn't : the way of calculating unemployment rate has been altered so as to lower it. For example, several people I know have been sacked from the ANPE (where you registrer to be counted as unemployed) under various pretexts, while they're really willing to find a job (implied : they were not parasites registered merely to get the RMI (insertion minimum income)).

Hyla arborea

"Capitalist Pig-Dogs" my jokey use of an abusive term as favoured by Commies! "to a man" that is to say we are all capitalists in this country these days.

As for Church and State, France has it exactly right, this country is in a muddle, state education which is built on Catholic resources and ideology ditto the health system to some degree. Completely wrong.

Read this and weep

Mike.

Ah... okay thanks (I hadn't noticed that one)

Judt

It is not that simple, you have to master a country's history, thinking and context before asserting such theories.

Yes, it is that simple. You have to earn €10 before you can buy a €9.99 item, and you have to go into debt if you earn €10 and spend €15, and there's only so much debt you can accrue before you start spending all of your €10 on the interest of that loan, etc etc. Economic theory is quite simple at the end of the day: You have to earn it before you can spend it.

? I didn't know that France was supposed to hit at a special level. Who cares if we don't have have the biggest economic growth?

Not what I meant. I meant that 22% unemployment among the young and 9% overall is woeful for a western economy.

France has had it too cushy for too long. It's a mind boggling system to even the rest of Europe. You have to put in hard work and you have to earn your money and put up with the fact that the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need if you only earn 80% of the wage you need to live the lifestyle you want.

Government interference in business, pushed by people who want iron tight job security and so on, doesn't work. Ultimately there's less jobs for people to be secure in, as you know, because nobody wants to do business in France.

In Ireland an employer can drop you like a light compared to France, yet we have practically full employment. Odd, no?

ambro25

Hé bien je suis bien content que Sarko ait gagné, même si je ne peux pas le sentir. Cependant, au contraire de ton post précédent, pour moi Sarko c'était le moins pire des deux, un vote entièrement par défaut plutôt que par conviction: à choisir entre un homme avec de la volonté à défaut de charisme, et une femme sans convictions ni programme, y avait pas photo.

Judt a raison sur toute la ligne, au fait. Ca fait au moins 10 ans que je prêche à l'identique.

Signé ambro25, heureux expatrié économique depuis 1994, et c'est pas demain la veille que je rentre

TRNSL for my fellow Boardsies on The Island

Well, I'm happy he won, even if I can't stand the guy. However, unlike your earlier post, for me was the best of a bad bunch, and my vote was entirely by default rather than by conviction: choosing between a man with a will but no charisma and a woman with no convictions nor program, it wasn't a photo finish.

Judt is entirely correct about it all, btw. I've only been saying it for the last 10 years at least myself.

Signed ambro25, happy economic expatriate since 1994, and I ain't going back anytime soon.

EDIT...and as a now-fully anglo-irishized baby-eating capitalist, of course I was going to vote for the guy who's promised to abolish inheritance tax

Hyla arborea

You have to earn €10 before you can buy a €9.99 item, and you have to go into debt if you earn €10 and spend €15, and there's only so much debt you can accrue before you start spending all of your €10 on the interest of that loan, etc etc. Economic theory is quite simple at the end of the day: You have to earn it before you can spend it.

Thank you for that breathtaking explaination, I wouldn't have guessed it... It's all about the means, not the end.

As for the rest, clarifications: 1-Who says everyone has to earn 20% more? Today's logic wants people to earn more in order to buy the latest flat-screened DVD player, a 4x4, or whatever. Lots of families live like dogs and never leave their lousy towns while each one of their children has his own computer. The whole consumption and liberalism logic has to be called into question.

2- Still, some people in really precarious situation do need to earn more, and indeed, "the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need". But did I say it was? What are employers for? There is money in France; its division only wants a stricter supervision.

3-Thereupon, don't tell me that fewer jobs are created if you impose constraints on employers : PMEs (small and medium businesses) cope fairly well with that. What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that nothing is done to prevent big profit-making companies to fire 100 000 people overnight. Government interference would be welcome there.

4-"nobody wants to do business in France" ?? I mustn't live in the country you're talking about, because it's not what I witness.

5- France is starting to change the way you consider suitable, and it's not a success : the CNE (=enabling bosses to hire and fire more easily) involves that people cannot find flats, subscribe to loans,... because landlords, banks,... don't regard them as having a reliable enough source of income. Full employment cannot be lauded if it amounts to the same problem as a high unemployment : depriving people of a decent life.

6- The "work more to earn more" advocated by Sarkozy is phoney : if you tell a factory or supermarket employee -with a health-poisoning job, or working definitely more than 35h a week- to work more to earn more, they'll make a strange face. On the other hand, if you show up in front of your boss, like "hello, I'd like to work more to earn more", you'll be laughed in your face. Not to mention the numerous part-time workers who'd like to earn more but are refused a full-time job.

(pfff... sorry for the possible far-fetched sentences, it's hard to put it in English...)