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"Heeeeeeelp!!" from France
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Actually, if you just write someone "ntm" in a sentence, you're not sure to be understood. Still, in France you can see graffiti "NTM" everywhere and then everyone knows what it means...It does? Excellent! I must start using it more often on French boards...
Actually, they're my initials. I just have a habit of signing off on posts and emails. My unique (Well, not so unique, others do it too) brand of Netiquette.
NTM
It's the name of a rap band, originally (in general rap is not my kind of music, but I liked what they did). Maybe you've heard of Joey Starr.
I love you, Brian
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Hyla arborea wrote:I still prefer the 0,5 levelled program to the -25 one.
(by the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen had a program too, if you go this way)
I don't get your maths - explain please.
JM LePen stands for a particular type of (populist) ideology and had a program, the same he had the time before that, with which I do not agree
(Put it this way: my passport may say I'm French, but my family name sure as hell doesn't
)
Sego didn't have any program nor ideas of her own, only enough soundbites, truisms and panderings to all sides of the electing spectrum, to try and get herself elected. Thankfully, the majority of electors apparently saw through the spin doctors (7 years of Blairism for France? I don't think so!).
Sarko doesn't really have a program either, but he has demonstrated the resolve to do the 'right' thing and that is quite a program of itself - because there's a sh1tload that needs sorting out.
Don't get me wrong: as I posted earlier, I'm not sold on the guy and as a matter of fact, I'm rather looking forward to see just how he intends to tackle Unions and the Civil Service (about time them f*ckers were put to work!).
As someone posted somewhere on the Web recently, after the TV debate on the 2nd, "one demonstrated she wanted to be elected, the other demonstrated he wanted to govern a country"
Now, about that earlier post...Hyla arborea wrote:1-Who says everyone has to earn 20% more? Today's logic wants people to earn more in order to buy the latest flat-screened DVD player, a 4x4, or whatever. Lots of families live like dogs and never leave their lousy towns while each one of their children has his own computer. The whole consumption and liberalism logic has to be called into question.
Nothing wrong with consumption and liberalism anywhere else in the world, so why should France have a problem? More like a chip on the shoulder the size of an aircraft carrier
I'll tell you who 'says everyone has to earn 20% more' : anybody who realises that you can't have your cake an eating it, or who understands the basic principle of the communicating vases (which extends to finance just the same as it applies to liquids).Hyla arborea wrote:2- Still, some people in really precarious situation do need to earn more, and indeed, "the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need". But did I say it was? What are employers for? There is money in France; its division only wants a stricter supervision.
France has one the highest minimum wage (SMIC - know all about it, Darlin') in the world, in addition to probably the highest and longest unemployment benefit in the world (ASSEDIC - know all about it, Darlin') .
How much f*cking more do you want? :mad:
Take a cow, start milking it: have you ever seen one with an infinite supply of milk? You got to let it eat some grass every now and then for the milk to top up.
Why-oh-why do you think the problem of the deserting 'Rich' and 'Brains' is so exacerbated in France? Because there is always a limit at which people who create wealth decide "enough is enough, they've had their tons of flesh, at the rate the're going I'll not even have the bones left!"
So they f*ck off, grow fat where they're allowed to (UK, IE, US, AU etc. - where opportunities exist for people not afraid of doing a hard day's graft) and I for one applaud them.Hyla arborea wrote:3-Thereupon, don't tell me that fewer jobs are created if you impose constraints on employers : PMEs (small and medium businesses) cope fairly well with that. What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that nothing is done to prevent big profit-making companies to fire 100 000 people overnight. Government interference would be welcome there.
Jaysus! Have you any idea what the rate of startup failure is in France, compared to Ireland or the UK?
What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that draconian pro-employee employment laws make any decision to 'employ' (as in a 'CDI' - that's a bog-standard work contract to you & me guys) a lifelong commitment for the employer, even if the employee never works an honest day in his or her life after getting the CDI.
What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that for any €1k you pay an employee (gross pay, employees in France pay income tax themselves after getting paid), you've got to pay another €1k to the government in contributions. So that employee had better be generating €2k and a fair bit even if, as a business, you just want to break even: then the employee come crying that you'not paying him his true worth to the business (so he can afford a 4x4 and a Bravia LCD). How do you f*cking win? You can't - period.Hyla arborea wrote:4-"nobody wants to do business in France" ?? I mustn't live in the country you're talking about, because it's not what I witness.
Get your head out of the sand, Hyla, you'll be swallowing pebbles next. I've lost track of all the headlines over the last 5 years about all of the foreign companies getting out of France or just plain cancelling planed investments - when it wasn't French companies themselves relocating production or more.Hyla arborea wrote:5- France is starting to change the way you consider suitable, and it's not a success : the CNE (=enabling bosses to hire and fire more easily) involves that people cannot find flats, subscribe to loans,... because landlords, banks,... don't regard them as having a reliable enough source of income. Full employment cannot be lauded if it amounts to the same problem as a high unemployment : depriving people of a decent life.
Banks will change. Hell, just about only civil servants meet French banks' criteria of stability these days - they'll adapt, or they'll get bought out by foreign banks. See me cry over it, LOL!Hyla arborea wrote:6- The "work more to earn more" advocated by Sarkozy is phoney : if you tell a factory or supermarket employee -with a health-poisoning job, or working definitely more than 35h a week- to work more to earn more, they'll make a strange face. On the other hand, if you show up in front of your boss, like "hello, I'd like to work more to earn more", you'll be laughed in your face. Not to mention the numerous part-time workers who'd like to earn more but are refused a full-time job.
Your work experience must be extensive to be that assertive. My dad runs an engineering-based PME in France. In fact, over the past 30 years or so, he's always been running an enginerring-based PME or another - there's always been one constant: the guy who works more, gets more. There's always been another constant: there's not a whole lot of people who are ready to work more to get more, but there's a vast majority who's after working less and getting just as much or more for it.
But I will tell you what will happen, what has not been addressed by anyone in this campaign, what I wanted to see addressed in this campaign : the brewing war between civil service and private sector in France. Because in terms of employment and quality of life, as things stand currently, talk about the have's and have not's (respectively)!0 -
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Why, thanks Mike
See, I'm not a whole 100% French DNA-wise, so this may be that and whatnot - I put it down to the portion of 'Italian peasantry' genes and how I was raised, by my Dad (a €1 is worth a €1 and it takes that much work to earn it) and by Jesuits (rule 1 - do the work, rule 2 - do the f*cking work). 0 -
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Well we don't them to change too soon or else we'll stop getting the pick of the crop coming over here!
I studied in France for a year they used to give me a grant towards my accommodation (€150 pm) no means test or anything, crazy.
Not that I was complaining though
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brianthebard wrote:German problems aren't fixed overnight, but France's should be?
I don't think that is what was meant, and I don't believe for a second that France's problems will be fixed overnight either - if anything, it's probably going to take much longer than that. I understand a goodly portion of Germany's problems stem from the Reunification and the herculean effort of reintegrating 20% or 30% more population which had precious little skills suited to a western economy, not to say anything of the infrastructure. France's 'East Germany' is constituted by it's encyclopaedy-sized tax and employment laws, not to say anything of the cost burden that the civil service (as a whole, incl. healthcare) represents, relative to to the country's take-home pay. The problem, is that most of this encyclopaedy-sized tax and employment laws is now less the result of decades of social barter (a good thing) and much more the result of decades of corporatist lobbying (a bad thing - and corporatist here is not limited to private companies, but on the contrary means every single branch of nationalised industries).
Case in point, the SNCF (National Railway Company), wherein train drivers are still paid a 'coal allowance' (granted in early 30s on the back of the hardship of filling loco stoves) in additional time off and €s. Why wasn't this killed when all coal-fired locos were taken out of service? Because you'd have no end of strikes, and it was an acquired advantage, so you can't take it away. A train driver on a professional's salary (and then some when you factor in early retirement and package to go with it)? In France, you betcha!
France is absolutely riddled with these little costs here there and everywhere, in every walk of (government-salarie'd) way.brianthebard wrote:When the 35 hour week was introduced it cut unemployment massively.
I wouldn't quite call it 'massively'. It had a short-term effect, principally caused by employers scrambling to maintain productivity in the face of the reduced production time (=produce same in less time). So many were brought in on temporary contracts, whilst companies were figuring out how to increase productivity of the permanent employees. Once they figured it out, the contracts weren't renewed. It ain't rocket science, and was entirely predictable. But I guess it made good headlines and soundbites at the time.brianthebard wrote:The fact is its not just a case of business in equals jobs out.(etc.)
Yes, it is. It's simple math. Less businesses = less jobs, More businesses = more jobs. Really. I hear your argument about finding suitable candidates for job specifications, but ponder this: how come France has the exact same problem in reverse? Too many overqualified applicants for any job going?
Don't get me wrong, France's education system really is the bee's knees (I should know), but it's elitist in the extreme, has been for decades now, and does not value any non-University -type education (e.g. 'physical' workforce). So now you have 4 applicants out of 5 for a job operating a 5-axes CNC lathe who have an Engineering Degree, and a couple of them probably have a Masters to boot (this one based on a true story, repeated ad nauseam for the last 5 years). And short of a PhD, good luck landing that postman/postwoman job.
Opinion poll at 5pm when students stream out of Uni - Typical question: what is your choice of career? Typical Reply: I want to be a civil servant.
What does that tell you about the situation there?
Eventually, someone notices there's a problem, nay hundreds: the working population is ageing, the country is haemorraging just about all of the super-efficient output of that sterling education system, all of that governement-paid workforce wants pay rises and less working hours, there's more and more of a gap between "fresh tax money" injected into the system (that tax money of private employees, which originally came from 'real' wealth generated by private companies) and "recycled tax money" in circulation in the system (that tax of civil servants, who get paid by the GVT then pay back a portion as income tax, and round and round we go), etc, etc.
[cynical rant]Where to get any additional tax, I ask ye?
Oh, I know... Let's tax any assets in France belonging to all those expatriates differently! Tell you what, income tax, wealth tax, this and that and the other tax, if they are applicable, and whilst there are thresholds for people domiciled in France, let's abolish thresholds for expatriates and make them pay full wack on the first cent!
Oh, yeah - it won't be popular, so let's make sure we vote it on a 31st December when noone's looking, with effect from 1st January of course.[/cynical rant]
How do you like them apples? I for one promptly put a few students out on the street and sold the lot, then had the immense satisfaction to tell (in person) my Assembly Representative and French tax inspector to go f*ck themselves sideways with a pointy stick, until it would tickle their tonsils. 0 -
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Hyla arborea wrote:Do you know how i-pods are made? (just as an example)
I do. Do you know why they're not made in France, were not invented in France or why Apple couldn't ever have been a French company ? I do as well.Hyla arborea wrote:It's not about asking for a higher unemployment benefit - which wouldn't help the economic situation : people have to keep their jobs, and you won't have endless amounts of jobs as long as profit-making companies keep firing thousands of people when it suits them.
Noone said anything about raising the SMIC or the ASSEDIC: my point is that they're about as high as (im)possible, unsustainably so given the prevalent economic and tax policies in France.Hyla arborea wrote:?? The disertings of Rich and Brains are two opposite problems: the latter have been faced with an unfavourable UMP policy whereas the former consider this policy hasn't been pushed far enough.
Erm... I'd class myself, rightly or wrongly, along the 'deserting brains' (French educated, mostly, and went to seek my fortune elsewhere). For the record, I left in 1994 (and it was already nothing new back then), so a hell of a long time before any UMP policies were even discussed, never mind implemented or even given a run to gauge their efficiency.
Again, you misunderstand or misrepresent my point: the Exodus of rich and/or smart French people is not political (only politicians and begrudgers make it a political issue), it's as much symptomatic as it is practical. Because when the grass has most definitely turned yellow in your field, you don't bother checking what shade of green exactly it is is in the neighbour's - so long as it's green.Hyla arborea wrote:You're obviously talking through the employers' point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?
<snip>
Sure, employees are a great threat for their bosses... Come on, they do not decide anything - they do what they're told and shut up.
Oh, really? Hyla arborea, you're obviously talking through the employee's point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?
Let's be clear here - I have mostly been an employee, I have at times been an employer, and we're now discussing what should be done for France to be able to punch at least at its weight, if not above. It's a political discussion, which has to incorporate economics, and which has to be be objective in respect of both sides of the divide: and in economical terms, that means there must be as much incentive for the employer to offer jobs, as there must be for the employee to take said jobs.
Employees decide whether they're going to give 100% of their work effort to their company, or pull a sicky, or skive, or... In 'liberal' economies, if you don't put in the effort you get laid off - In France's very special economy, if you've got a CDI, the Prudhommes are always with you (I know this from 1st hand experience as an employer) and the employer's basically f*cked if he/she is trying to lay you off when you don't pull your weight. What's the alternative? The work has got to be done, so it can get billed and then paid by customers, which eventually pay the employee's wage.Hyla arborea wrote:By hearing you, it sounds as if they were forced to live. They just just do in order to make more profit. Capitalism works on the same exponential pattern as some mental illnesses such as anorexia or bulimia.
You still don't understand communicating vases, do you? If you take more tax at the snap of governemental fingers, the company which cannot increase its market at the snap of competitive fingers in proportion to the tax cut must cut costs. Oh... and I thought it was Communism which worked on the same pattern as some mental illnesses (e.g. particularly virulent schizophrenia )?Hyla arborea wrote:My work experience isn't that extensive,
Well, colour me dumbfounded :eek: You don't say! And you said you were coming to Ireland for what, again? Work? Boy are you in for a cultural shock!Hyla arborea wrote:I simply look at people around me and not only at my dad's business (from the beginning you've been reminding me of a girl I used to argue with. She kept mentionning her dad's business as an argument). That comes back to what I said: you're talking through the employers' point of view.
You know, I should also mention that my Dad has been doing quite a bit of pressurising of late, to get me to come back to France and join him to eventually take the reins.
Which I have no intention of doing, incidentally, even though I am presently an employee.
I'm not mentioning my Dad's business as an argument, just as some first-hand experience of both sides of the divide, and I don't believe that I have argued or otherwise written from a point of view demonstrating that I have been "looking only at my Dad's business".
I believe I've already pointed out that I've had my own business (in France, then in Luxembourg - I also have a small business now, actually, based at home).
My point of view is liberal, period. It is entirely based on meritocratic principles: if I want a 4x4 (say), I have to earn the €s to buy the 4x4, so off I go and work until I get the €s.
If I want more €s, I need to change job/career, I need to acquire more skills, I need to make myself worth more to an employer and usually a combination of all that: I am the product, the employer is the consumer, the employer gets the product, he pays for the privilege - period. It's totally down to me, though, not the State: I want the extra stuff, the State has no duty to provide me with it.
The sooner the average French punter realises that, i.e. that he or she is in competition with his fellow worker, not with the boss, and that whatever lifestyle improvement he or she is after only come as a result of grafting and not whinging or striking, the sooner things will start to improve.
Of course, that French punter first has to lose the automatic reflex to ask the State for all 3 characteristics (money, job, more skills)
Your point of view smacks of socialist rethoric, bordering on communist. You don't sound very old at all, so I'd venture you're not actually expressing your own points of view just yet (as in - reflecting your experience of life, not the soundbites of unionised socialists).
That's particularly exacerbated in your last paragraphs commenting about my point re. "civil service vs private sector", which is frankly laughable - but perfectly understandable coming from a young French person, unfortunately.0 -
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Absolutely. What little I have learned about Ireland in the nearly 3 years I've been here, is that indeed in the 80s/90s, Ireland was in pretty much the same shape France is about to be if nothing gets done - if not already there. Same contributing economical and political factors, same dead-end for newly super-qualified classes of age wanting more (Sir... please ) for themselves.
The paradox is that if 'youth' wasn't so well educated in the first place, they wouldn't have had known better than to stick around with their acquired skillsets!0 -
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ambro25 wrote:I do. Do you know why they're not made in France, were not invented in France or why Apple couldn't ever have been a French company ? I do as well.
They aren't made in France like they aren't made in Ireland or probably anywhere else in the developed world...there are too many poor Indians/Chinese/Tiawanese...etc.etc out there to exploit. Should Apple have existed in France it would have probably had to show something from the massive government subsidies it got to start out...so maybe you're right it would never existed in FranceNoone said anything about raising the SMIC or the ASSEDIC: my point is that they're about as high as (im)possible, unsustainably so given the prevalent economic and tax policies in France.
Are subsidies and other tax funded benefits that "defence" contractors get in France also unsustainable?Again, you misunderstand or misrepresent my point: the Exodus of rich and/or smart French people is not political (only politicians and begrudgers make it a political issue), it's as much symptomatic as it is practical. Because when the grass has most definitely turned yellow in your field, you don't bother checking what shade of green exactly it is is in the neighbour's - so long as it's green.
I wonder how you explain the brain drain now currently taking place in America...ie people aren't going to college because there aren't any jobs for them.Oh, really? Hyla arborea, you're obviously talking through the employee's point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?
Let's be clear here - I have mostly been an employee, I have at times been an employer,
And if your dad was a successful businessman would that also mean that you come from the priviledged side of things rather than coming from "both" perspectives. People fighting for a decent standard of living from companies that make massive profits and people fighting to make themselves ever and ever richer in my opinion is two completely different scenarios.Employees decide whether they're going to give 100% of their work effort to their company, or pull a sicky, or skive, or... In 'liberal' economies, if you don't put in the effort you get laid off - In France's very special economy, if you've got a CDI, the Prudhommes are always with you (I know this from 1st hand experience as an employer) and the employer's basically f*cked if he/she is trying to lay you off when you don't pull your weight. What's the alternative? The work has got to be done, so it can get billed and then paid by customers, which eventually pay the employee's wage.
You don't seem to understand the difference between being laid off and fired. Do you know about Bank of Ireland's fairly recent attempt to make a massive layoff when they were billions in the black. Work harder make more my ass.
Kinda undermines some of your points about graft later in you post.Oh... and I thought it was Communism which worked on the same pattern as some mental illnesses (e.g. particularly virulent schizophrenia )?
Works a trick when it isnt' consciously subverted by a superpower. Scandanavia?Well, colour me dumbfounded :eek: You don't say! And you said you were coming to Ireland for what, again? Work? Boy are you in for a cultural shock!
Boy is she ever. I have never meet such incompetant, greedy and narrow minded management in my life.0 -
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It's a bit simple, insulting even, to suggest that France's unemployment problems are down to the French being lazy. French workers are actually very productive and 35 hours is more than enough to do the vast majority of jobs these days (if you exclude time spent posting on boards during the week, how much work do you actually do?).
I can't see that Sarkozy's election, nor that of his opponent, making a blind bit of difference to anything. France is an anti-socialist bureaucracy run by the fonctionnaires for the fonctionnaires whose greatest power is their powerlessness -Je peux rien faire pour vous Monsieur, il vous manque un papier. Un point, c'est tout - and their greatest ambition to do absolutely nothing. These, and not the aristocracy nor the ENA-schooled bourgeoisie are the new ruling classes of the 5th republic and nothing short of a paperless revolution will sort them out. A future-thinking president needs to take the bold step of moving absolutely all administration over to the internet (or minitel) to allow the people control of their own paperwork - just think of the amount of work people could do if they weren't force to queue, double-queue and requeue for days on end to acquire form after pointless form! A solid, twenty-five hour week would largely suffice, productivity would stay stable, morale would soar, strikes would dry up (except amongst the fonctionnaires, but by then nobody would give a monkey's about their fat, obsolete arses), people would have more money to go shopping, the economy would begin to grow, health-care costs would drop as demand for anit-depressants and arrêts de travail would plummet, the young and musically talented would have time to form decent groups and write listenable songs (OK, that bit is pure fantasy), there'd be more time to cook properly, engage in sports and obesity levels would plateau, there would be much more time for, and far fewer impediments to setting up new businesses, putting tens of thousands of university-educated ideas into action, reactivating minds numbed by thirty-five long hours (actually, nobody I know, with the obvious exception of the rubber-stampers, works less than thirty-nine hours p.w.) of unstimulating drudge work...
All that remains is to tackle the frightening notion that an estimated 77% of French parents want their offspring to become one of the Borg and put bullets through the heads of anyone involved in any capacity in Star Ac' and it's game on. And if it doesn't work, we can all just down tools and sulk, safe in the knowledge that our CDI and the declaration of human rights permits us to.
Vive la Grévolution!0 -
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sovtek wrote:They aren't made in France like they aren't made in Ireland or probably anywhere else in the developed world...there are too many poor Indians/Chinese/Tiawanese...etc.etc out there to exploit.
I take it that you do not own a TV set, DVD player, mp3 player, computer (posting from a web café, are you?), a pair of Nike or Reebok runners and that your underwear is pure Aran wool? Basically, nothing manufactured by labour-intensive economies? Because if you do, that would make you pretty much double-standarded to the hilt. I don't expect you to reply to that onesovtek wrote:Are subsidies and other tax funded benefits that "defence" contractors get in France also unsustainable?
Armaments is one of France's strongest export industries, and has been for decades. If it wasn't for them, there would be a fair few less employees and profits contributing to the pot once the balance of trade is all rounded up. So, that's a bit rich alright: do your homework next time.sovtek wrote:I wonder how you explain the brain drain now currently taking place in America...ie people aren't going to college because there aren't any jobs for them.
I don't subscribe to that interpretation for a second. The brain drain in the US, AFAIK is more down to politics, tax and societal changes under Bush, than for purely economical reasons. The US is still, by a country mile, the country with the most opportunities, both in economical terms and in terms of personal betterment - once you got yerself a green card, of course.sovtek wrote:And if your dad was a successful businessman would that also mean that you come from the priviledged side of things rather than coming from "both" perspectives. People fighting for a decent standard of living from companies that make massive profits and people fighting to make themselves ever and ever richer in my opinion is two completely different scenarios.
My Dad is currently a successful businessman. Hasn't always been that way, and I do remember downright poverty and bailiffs, more times around than I care to count.
I also remember hinm being long-term unemployed not so many years ago - as highly skilled as he was (fully qualified Engineer) and with enough managerial and entrepreneurial experience in France and overseas, with fluent French, Italian and German and working English, unemployable still because in his early 50s. The only option to get back to work after 2 years on the dole? Start a business again (well, in this case, buy a loss-making engineering department from a very large French industrial group at the time they were trimming down the fat, and turning it around. Oh... and saving 30 jobs, I thought you'd like to know).
I do admire my Dad very much, that's of course not in dispute. Mostly because no matter how bad the knocks, how complete the faillite, he's always risen from the ashes, faught on, always refused to let go, always picked up the pieces and started again. But he does his things - always has. And I do mine - always have. So, no, I do not come from the priviledged side of things, and I quite resent what I perceive to be thinly veiled begrudgery. I believe I made that point clear earlier on: I've been, numerous times, at both ends of boths spectrums (rich/poor, employer/employee) myself. I only drew attention to my Dad's situation as he's currently doing business in France, employs a moderate amount of skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled people and (I don't care whether you believe me or not on that one) has always seen his workforce right no matter what. His dad (my grand-dad) was driving locos in the pits of Lorraine - he remembers where he comes from, and so do I.
Take heed of Sand and pickarooney's posts, they make very valid points (and appear to concur with me). Put simply: you aren't allowed to be 'privately' successful for long in France, the country's psyche isn't in the least geared towards nurturing and acknowledging entrepreneurship.sovtek wrote:You don't seem to understand the difference between being laid off and fired. Do you know about Bank of Ireland's fairly recent attempt to make a massive layoff when they were billions in the black. Work harder make more my ass. Kinda undermines some of your points about graft later in you post.
There is no difference between being laid off and fired. As an ex-employee, the net effect is the same: there's no money coming in to pay the mortgage and putting food on the table. Well, in a liberal economy, that is. So you just get off your ass and get another job: anything to pay the bills, you can always move on again later to a better job, once the take home pay has resumed. But I guess it will take at least one more generational change for French people to accept that (save for the Civil Service) job-for-life is gone and isn't coming back.
I can't for the life of me see how this undermines my points about grafting. You work, you get. You don't work, you don't get. And if you're working and not getting, grow a backbone and change your job FFS!sovtek wrote:Works a trick when it isnt' consciously subverted by a superpower. Scandanavia?
Scandinavia (that's Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark) is communist?!? :eek: F*ckin' Hell, someone tell Nokia quick, they've still got all them poor Indians/Chinese/Taiwanese making all them mobile phones for them Scandinavian countries aren't even as remotely leftist as France in political/ideological terms: they're just very good at using tax revenue intelligently. I suppose, by French standards, that appears to make them a model of socialism. I would however contend that, actually, it's just good money management 
Cop on... please?0
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