Anti-cyclist rant in the Times

Mucco

From today Irish Times

BEHAVIOUR OF CYCLISTS

Madam, - The Labour Party and the Greens have a policy for cyclists on the streets of our towns and cities. Millions have been spent on the streets to create cycle lanes and facilities for cyclists to lock up their bikes around the town.

Politicians and councilors are actively encouraging more people to take to the streets on two wheels. All of the above is welcome.

I drive a motorbike to and from the city centre every day hail rain or shine. The behaviour of most (not all) cyclists is an absolute disgrace. Their regard for the law must be addressed. Traffic lights (especially pedestrian lights), seem to be there to be broken. One-way streets do not seem to apply to them.

Footpaths pedestrian streets and bridges are treated as another cycle lane. Motorists are expected to be psychic as hand signals are seldom used.

Most cyclists have never heard of front and rear lights for their bikes. I have even seen speed limits broken by cyclists (the Tour de France type with the spray on cycling outfit who thinks he's racing for the finishing line). The use of mobile phones is common. Plugged into headphones is an everyday sight.

No hands while "texting" is a must for the college student cyclist.If a motorist/motorcyclist were to behave in the same manner as most cyclists there would be uproar from the public and indeed the cycling fraternity. Cyclists are great at commenting on the behavior of other road users but seem to ignore the rules of the road themselves. I would like to see zero tolerance for ALL road users being enforced not just motorists.

- Yours, etc,

ALAN COOKE, Fownes St., Dublin 2.

It's not a rant..

It's true!

And i'm a cyclist, no other method of transport for me. But he's absolutely correct in everything he says.

Seems reasonable to be.

Im a motorcyclist myself and I totally agree with what was said in that article.Look around cork city any day of the week and you will see all of the above.Thats not to say however that other road users are perfect, car drivers really get on my nerves but thats another story!

hunnymonster

he is right in most of waht he says execpt for implying most cyclists are badly behaved. It's just the most visible one's who behave as if the rules don't apply to them. The rest of us are tarred with the same brush.

people are sometimes judged by the lowest common denominator..

thats life

Membrane

The damage that a cyclist can inflict on most other road users is far less compared to motor vehicle users (the heavier the vehicle and the higher the speed, the greater the potential to do damage to others). At the same time the potential for a cyclist to suffer damage in case of an accident with most other road users is far greater. This should be taken into account when establishing rules (it often isn't at present), for measuring the seriousness of breaking rules, and for deciding whether or how to enforce rules.

The breaking of certain rules by cyclists has a lot to do with the nonsensical nature of certain current rules. Rules that are considered as daft by the public will be broken and cannot be enforced in practice. The answer is to draw up sensible rules that appropriately differentiate between the various road users.

Mucco

You're right, a lot of what this guy says is true, but as Membrane says, the roads infrastructure in Ireland is not built with cyclists in mind.
I used to obey every traffic light until I came to several induction-loop controlled lights that didn't detect my bike. They just stayed red until a car rolled up. So now I jump these lights.
Most of these so-called cycle lanes are built to take the cyclist out of the way of the motorist rather than to keep the cyclist safe from the motorist.

But the main reason I call this a rant is that 368 people died on Irish roads last year, none of them killed by a cyclist. This guy should get his priorities right.

M

crosstownk

It's a tough one. Yes, cyclists regularly break red lights at pedestrian crossings (at 20km/h) and often break other red lights - all at their own risk, although I do agree that they could cause an accident by motorists trying to avoid clattering into a cyclist.

I'm a fair weather cyclist, I'll cycle to work when the weather is fine, otherwise I use the car. I find that motorists have a blatent disregard for cyclists and cycle lanes. I often go through red lights - when I deem it safe to do so and I regularly cycle with my iPod earphones in. I also use footpaths when the vehicular traffic has blocked my way - maybe I should queue in traffic behind the cars but that, for me, would defeat the purpose of cycling. In all my 'law breaking' maneovers, I've never had a spill and have never caused an accident. In fact, I'm more likely to get knocked off my bike by some motorist who encroaches onto the cycle lane or by some blind fool who is reversing out of his driveway across the cycle lane and only paying attention to the traffic on the road and completely ignoring the cycle lane. I do use hand signals as I feel it necessary to let the traffic know my intentions and it plays a big part in not getting killed.

Some of these guys who take time off to write into a newspaper to voice thier opinions should maybe get out and ride a push bike for a few weeks - just because a motorbike has two wheels doesn't mean that it is the same as riding a push bike. And, I'm sick to death of motorcyclists who use the cycle lane - I could be wrong here, but is the cycle lane only for push bikes?

If a Garda stops me on my bike and decides to take action because I breached a rule of the road then I'll put my hand up and take my medicine.

daymobrew

Membrane wrote:

The damage that a cyclist can inflict on most other road users is far less compared to motor vehicle users
<snip>

Excellent reply. We should tweak this as a response to the original rant, mentioning that it is the bad behaviour of some cyclists that has given this very negative image. The same bad behaviour is loathed by the "not all" members of the cycling community.

DirkVoodoo

Might I also add that motorcyclists are far from law abiding. I do believe motorbikes are meant to obey the regular rules of the road as it applies to vehicles, i.e. staying in a lane, obeying speed limits.

I find it infuriating and far more dangerous when motorbikes weave amongst traffic at speed, moving in and out of blindspots.

However, he makes a few good points, of which i am guilty. If I see a pedestrian crossyway is empty, i will slow down and pass through it, i use headphones somedays, but i can still hear more than most people in insulated cabins with pumping stereos. I use hand signals, I cycle on the road where the "multimillion euro" cycle lanes are too poor too accomodate me. I wouldn't dream of parking my bike in town and am upset when I see bikes vandalised at Luas stops, etc. simply for being there, not because anyone was attempting to steal them.

I think its far easier for this gentleman to pick on a minority, whose bad habits are far more visible than driving while texting, driving without insurance, etc. Maybe if cyclists were treated more as equal road users and not an annoyance to be used as a punchbag in Irish traffic debates, I could have more sympathy.

Trojan

I'm not the kinda guy to be bothered replying with a letter to the Times, but I certainly find fault with a lot of what he said (and agree with some).

Regarding the headphones issue - as soon as they start building all new cars without radios I'll gladly stop wearing them. As a headphones wearing cyclist in Dublin traffic I guarantee I know more about the position of every vehicle on or entering the road I'm on (because if I make a mistake it's more than a dent in the bumper I need worry about).

Hungrycol

Motorcyclist in front of me wouldn't get out of the cyclelane this morning

daymobrew

Here are some ideas for replies. Discuss.

Mr Cooke's letter (Behaviour of Cyclists, May 8) highlights the "us vs them" attitude of many road users as a result of inconsistent enforcement of the law.
The cyclists that don't break the lights etc are annoyed and embarrassed by those that do.
We too would welcome zero tolerance enforcement of the law and enhanced education of ALL road users.

While Mr Cooke (Behaviour of Cyclists, May 8) has some valid points, the violations he cites annoy and embarrass those of us in the cycling community that don't do those things.
Some (not all, of course) of the actions of cyclists are for safety reasons, e.g. ignoring unmaintained mandatory cycle lanes.
Of course, cyclists are not the only guilty road users out there. The letter would still be valid if 'cyclist' was replaced with 'motorist'.
In the case of collisions with motorised vehicles, cyclists will always lose out.
We too would welcome zero tolerance enforcement of the law and enhanced education of ALL road users.

Some of my colleagues have committed to removing their headphones when radios are removed from cars.

rubadub

Mucco wrote:

The Labour Party and the Greens have a policy for cyclists on the streets of our towns and cities. Millions have been spent on the streets to create cycle lanes and facilities for cyclists to lock up their bikes around the town..

And then they technically litter these very "lanes" with illegal election posters!

The behaviour of most (not all) cyclists is an absolute disgrace.

Lost it right there, the dogs on the street know this is not true. Just like cyclists argueing that "the majority of motorists... blah, blah" are also talking crap. Only the bad ones stick out and are remembered and get considered "the majority" by the blind.

I have always found pedestrians to be the worst offenders of road laws, I am always breaking the law as a pedestrian, but the gardai have common sense and do not arrest/fine me for it, just like they dont with cyclists.

randomname2005

That kind of letter really gets my wick up. I would expect to see it in the Metro rather than the Times

He talks about cyclists not using hand signals and how drivers must be psychic - Im sure most of the cyclists here will have endless stories of drivers pulling out, changing lanes without indicating, opening doors without looking in mirrors etc. That is much more dangerous than a cyclist not using hand signals.

What about car drivers that talk on mobile phones, even though it is illegal?

And he even criticises cyclists for breaking the speed limit - Eh how many car drivers and motorcyclists are caught breaking the speed limit every year?

Every category of road user breaks the laws at some stage, it just seems easier to pick on cyclists because they dont pay any "ROAD" tax, take up valuable space, they dont have to sit and wait in queues of traffic etc. etc.

Daymobrew, I was going to suggest some comments for your reply, but I dont think I could phrase them in any eloquent manner.
If you do end up sending in a reply and want to add my name to it, thats no problem.
R

dalk

I agree, in principle, with a lot of what he's said. Like everyone here I see the same behaviour everyday on my cycle to work.

What he doesn't mention is what affect he thinks all this law breaking has on everyone's use of the road. Does he think it causes accidents? Does he think cyclists are recklessly endangering themselves? Does he think they are a danger to other road users?

Or do cyclists, as i suspect, just annoy him, get in his way, "slow" him down, take up space on "his" road etc?

If there was a zero tolerance approach to cyclist behaviour, what benefits would we see on the road?

shrapnel222

another motorcyclist here, and another bad cycling hater here too. One thing for me though, is i think everyone agrees, is that some things certain cyclists do are just too stupid for words, whilst others break the law in a way which i don't particular care about:

-cyclists going through red lights has never bothered me much as a whole, but i hate the idiots who go through a red light at full speed when the lights have already gone green for the crossing road. I find this stupid and incredibly dangerous.

-muppets who are listening to their ipod or talking on the phone, and are hence oblivious to a lot of what's going on

-one way streets: some one lane one way streets, i say are fair game. they're often shortcuts so fair enough, but guys who go up 2 or 3 lane one ways in the bicycle lanes are complete morons.

-lights after dark: idiots riding in the dark without lights- they 're just waiting to get run over.

worst of all: muppets cycling after dark with no lights, music in their ears going down one way streets.

I wish there was more traffic police sometimes to start fining these idiots- what they should do is hold them responsible for their actions, fine them and remove points from their driving license- that should stop a lot of them from behaving the way they do

warrenaldo

well what a lot of car and motorbike users forget to realise is that it takes effort to cycle the bike, and stopping at pedestrian crossings where it is actually safe to cross means that stopping your momentum and starting up again. its not as simple as put your foot down. And thats why a lot of cyclists do it.

rubadub

shrapnel222 wrote:

-cyclists going through red lights has never bothered me much as a whole, but i hate the idiots who go through a red light at full speed when the lights have already gone green for the crossing road. I find this stupid and incredibly dangerous.

-muppets who are listening to their ipod or talking on the phone, and are hence oblivious to a lot of what's going on

-one way streets: some one lane one way streets, i say are fair game. they're often shortcuts so fair enough, but guys who go up 2 or 3 lane one ways in the bicycle lanes are complete morons.

-lights after dark: idiots riding in the dark without lights- they 're just waiting to get run over.

worst of all: muppets cycling after dark with no lights, music in their ears going down one way streets.

All of these things can be said about car & motorbike drivers too. I still see some cars driving without lights on at night. They could be broken or forgot to switch them on. I do accept a cyclist is far more likely to do this, a bike does not come with lights like other vehicles, and some cyclists rarely cycle at night, so have not bought them. I am not making excuses it is crazy to cycle without lights, be in legal or not.
I see motorbikes on the footpath, cycletracks & oneway streets. I see motorcyclists with ipods and talking on handsfree kits.

shrapnel222 wrote:

I wish there was more traffic police sometimes to start fining these idiots- what they should do is hold them responsible for their actions, fine them and remove points from their driving license-

Thats if they have a license. The traffic police have common sense and do not regard the level of danger as the same so let some things go. I regularly used to cycle on the footpath past gardai standing right beside me. They never once stopped me. Why was I on the footpath? because they had instructed people driving in bus lanes to illegally park on the cycle track I was using

You rarely will see police enforcing traffic laws on cyclists and even fewer enforce it on pedestrians, it doesnt take a genius to see why.

theo4130

there is no speed limit for a non motorised vehicle, e.g bikes! just to get that clear, ive heard this from numerous people mostly highly educated on the subject of road rules, go and ask a garda,

warrenaldo

imagine if they introduced speed limits for non motorised vehicles. ive never heard anything so ridiculous. next they would introduce speed limits for runners and joggers.

shrapnel222

rubadub wrote:

All of these things can be said about car & motorbike drivers too. I still see some cars driving without lights on at night. They could be broken or forgot to switch them on. I do accept a cyclist is far more likely to do this, a bike does not come with lights like other vehicles, and some cyclists rarely cycle at night, so have not bought them. I am not making excuses it is crazy to cycle without lights, be in legal or not.
I see motorbikes on the footpath, cycletracks & oneway streets. I see motorcyclists with ipods and talking on handsfree kits.

i agree, every type of vehicles has its fair share of idiots doing stupid things but this thread was about cyclists. Don't get me started on car drivers going down one way street, talking on the phone etc!!!! i can't stand these guys and make a point of insulting them or getting in their way to remind them they're complete pr*cks
cyclists are very vulnerable vehicles, so it pays to be careful. it's never just about 'i'm not going to be hurting anyone, i'm only putting my own life at risk' nonsense that keeps being repeated. You could say that about seatbelts also yet everyone fully understands the need to use them.

rubadub wrote:

Thats if they have a license. The traffic police have common sense and do not regard the level of danger as the same so let some things go. I regularly used to cycle on the footpath past gardai standing right beside me. They never once stopped me. Why was I on the footpath? because they had instructed people driving in bus lanes to illegally park on the cycle track I was using

You rarely will see police enforcing traffic laws on cyclists and even fewer enforce it on pedestrians, it doesnt take a genius to see why.

true also, but there are degrees of offences. They take points off cyclists in other european countries, and if you don't have a license you still get points taken off for when you eventually do get it.

daymobrew

Another go, including a comment how finger pointing others' mistakes is pointless.

While Mr Cooke (Behaviour of Cyclists, May 8) has some valid points, the violations he cites annoy and embarrass those of us in the cycling community that don't do those things.
Some cyclists would respond to the letter with a list of grievances against motorists and motorcyclists, but that would start an endless loop. Suffice to day, cyclists are not the only guilty road users out there. We could all do better.
We too would welcome proper enforcement of the law and enhanced education of ALL road users.

Some of my colleagues have committed to removing their headphones when radios are removed from cars.

Signed
Daymobrew and other boards.ie Cycling forum members

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote:

It's not a rant..

It's true!

And i'm a cyclist, no other method of transport for me. But he's absolutely correct in everything he says.

Seems reasonable to be.

I'd tend to a agree, sadly its seems to be a sigh I see every second day where I see some bloody muppet using his mobile to either talk to someone or txt someone while cycling up the road.

I went for a walk yesterday evening only to have a cyclist wizz by me on the foothpath with his arms folded infront of him, normally I'd be fine with this but there were hardly any cars on the road...so the normal reason for cycling on the path (cars hugging the kerb) didn't apply.

But at the end of the day, I see far far far more fools doing just dangerous things in cars on a daily basis

Cabaal

warrenaldo wrote:

imagine if they introduced speed limits for non motorised vehicles. ive never heard anything so ridiculous. next they would introduce speed limits for runners and joggers.

Frankly I just thjink they go too fast :rolleyes:

afaik Waterford CoCo introduced a 5mph speed limit for bikes in pedestrian area's....I could be wrong about this, they also banned bikes for the park even though it had a cycle-track for years.....go figure

daymobrew

Cabaal wrote:

I'd tend to a agree, sadly its seems to be a sigh I see every second day where I see some bloody muppet using his mobile to either talk to someone or txt someone while cycling up the road.

shrapnel222 wrote:

Don't get me started on car drivers going down one way street, talking on the phone etc!!!! i can't stand these guys and make a point of insulting them or getting in their way to remind them they're complete pr*cks

Report these offences to TrafficWatch 1890-205-805.
And if you're called into the Garda station to make a statement, the reported party will also be called in (separately) to make a statement. That's a nice inconvenience to them.

Cabaal

daymobrew wrote:

Some of my colleagues have committed to removing their headphones when radios are removed from cars.

This raises an interesting point, the reason people say headphones are stupid is because you can't hear other road users, yet on a daily basis I see/hear cars with music blaring

There is no way these drivers can properly hear other road users, infact I'm amazed a Gardai car or fire engine hasn't hit one of them yet because they didn't hear it coming and drove into its path

Cabaal

daymobrew wrote:

Report these offences to TrafficWatch 1890-205-805.
And if you're called into the Garda station to make a statement, the reported party will also be called in (separately) to make a statement. That's a nice inconvenience to them.

I try when I can to get a cars numberplate to report them but its alittle harder with a cyclist, thankfully its a less common sigh

On average I see 3-5 car/truck/bus drivers using a mobile on a daily basis

daymobrew

Cabaal wrote:

I could be wrong about this, they also banned bikes for the park even though it had a cycle-track for years.....go figure

Punishing everyone seems to the standard response of authorities here when a minority is inconsiderate. Think speed ramps - even the innocent (including emergency vehicles are 'punished').
I think that enforcement and education counter that. I never encountered speed ramps on public roads in California (lived there for 5 years) - but people knew that the police would stop you and there would not be any let offs.

Money Shot

As mentioned before, but I think it needs to be said again, cyclists are by far the most vulnerable people on the roads. A lot of people in cars, buses, trucks and motorcyclists don't seem to comprehend this. It seems at times to be that some drivers would rather live with a fatality or serious injury on their conscious than give any way to a cyclist.
Sometimes cyclists need to be in the middle of the road for turning, but motorists just beep and beep like you have no right to be in that lane for even the shortest of moments, despite all the hand signals in the world.

When I break the light, I'm going the same speed as if I was walking - maybe I should get off and walk, but whats the point ? the point is I will never hurt anyone else by doing this. Cyclists who break lights at speed are a menace no question. Drivers hate cyclists because we slow them down and they are ridiculously impatient.

People need to realise how vulnerable it is being a cyclist on the roads and drive accordingly.

Trojan

shrapnel222 wrote:

muppets who are listening to their ipod or talking on the phone, and are hence oblivious to a lot of what's going on

Why do people continue to make these false assumptions:

1) that if you listen to an ipod you can't hear trafffic;
2) that if you can't hear traffic you are completely unaware of it's presence?

Such ignorance p!sses me off.

Money Shot wrote:

Sometimes cyclists need to be in the middle of the road for turning, but motorists just beep and beep like you have no right to be in that lane for even the shortest of moments, despite all the hand signals in the world.

I had one fool overtake me on the outside when I was in the middle of the lane, arm out for about 10 seconds, and starting to make my right turn. That scared the sh!t outta me.

On the same junction I've had an argument with a guy who passed me on the inside as I came up to the turn on the outside of the lane, signalling my imminent turn - he pulled up beside me to berate me. His brilliant argument was that "bikes shouldn't be on the road, you should be on the path". (There's no cycle lane there, and I was turning right).

That junction is hard, it's a busy road, there's usually cars parked on the kerb, and it's going uphill - so I'm moving much slower than normal cruising. Having to move out (almost to the white line), signal in time, and wait for a break in oncoming traffic - well it's tiring

Money Shot wrote:

Drivers hate cyclists because we slow them down and they are ridiculously impatient.

That's true. They're ridiculously impatient, given that if we keep them at 15km/h for 10 seconds they're getting angry, and yet all they do when they pass us is manage to get to the next lights slightly before us. I regularly beat traffic on the 3 mile journey into town in quiet traffic, and in rush hour, well that's no contest.