Anti-cyclist rant in the Times

shrapnel222

Trojan wrote:

Why do people continue to make these false assumptions:

1) that if you listen to an ipod you can't hear trafffic;
2) that if you can't hear traffic you are completely unaware of it's presence?

Such ignorance p!sses me off.

people who can't read correctly and then make assumptions p!ss me off too:D or is it because they were listening to music or someone talking on the phone and therefore not concentrating!!!!

i said "oblivious to a lot of what's going on"!!!! which is very true, never said anything of what you're stating!!!

and it's also illegal in most countries too, but that must be just another stupid law to p!ss people off!!!

randomname2005

shrapnel222 wrote:

people who can't read correctly and then make assumptions p!ss me off too:D or is it because they were listening to music or someone talking on the phone and therefore not concentrating!!!!

Im going to stick my head about the parapet here and hope it doesnt get shot off toooooo much!
I would consider listening to music via headphones a lot more distracting than listening to music on a radio in a car, I would focus on the music in my headphones where the music in a car is just background noise.
If I cycle with headphones in I do find that Im not as aware as when I don't. But thats just personal experience of course.

However, as we are all in agreement that people who recklessly break traffic lights, hop up and down off kerbs etc give cyclists a bad name, I would also venture that the headphone law is aimed at people like this. Those of us who stick to the rules of the road are aware of whats going on around us
They are so busy listening to the music and just cycling that they may not remember that there are people and other, larger, more dangerous vehicles around.
Edit: woops, I realise I just got into an us vs them conversation!

markpb

Trojan wrote:

I had one fool overtake me on the outside when I was in the middle of the lane, arm out for about 10 seconds, and starting to make my right turn. That scared the sh!t outta me.

This used to happen me regularly turning right from Clontarf Road onto Malahide road. I would sit in the middle of the road, in the right turning lane with my arm out waiting for a chance to turn right and cars would sit behind me, beeping their horns and eventually undertaking me at speed and with no safe distance. Never fun.

Edit: Finally someone points out the stupidity of car/motorbike drivers complaining about cyclists with earphones. The irony is delicious.

rubadub

randomname2005 wrote:

I would consider listening to music via headphones a lot more distracting than listening to music on a radio in a car, I would focus on the music in my headphones where the music in a car is just background noise.

If the earphones are down low enough it is just the same as background noise in a car, and similarly if boy racers have their 5000gigawatt megabass woofer at full power it is as bad as headphones at full volume.
I agree either is a distraction, but I think more motorists listen to music while travelling than cyclists.

randomname2005 wrote:

the headphone law

Dont think there is such a law. If there was an argument for it I would presume deaf people would not be allowed to drive/cycle for similar reasons. I cycle with headphones probably 50% of the time, I am probably more aware of traffic and safer when listening to music since I am far more concious and am constantly monitoring traffic. I have come close to falling or swerving several times due to the fact that I wasnt wearing earphones and heard and was shocked by the blast of a horn from a car or bus at me (while obeying the law) or others.

I find it odd that they banned using mobiles in cars, yet people can still smoke, handling an ignited object in a car cannot be the safest thing to do.

There should be no real US vs THEM, since I expect the majority of people have been pedestrians, cyclists & motorists at some time. I know I have, and realise what I hate & like. I do break the laws when cycling, but if I was a motorist watching myself do this I would be thinking "fair play he is helping me". e.g. at junctions I will cross roads onto paths so cars can take off faster, I cycle on empty footpaths on narrow roads to allow cars pass. Similarly as a motorist I expect cyclists have no problem with my driving.
Do unto others....

randomname2005

rubadub wrote:

If the earphones are down low enough it is just the same as background noise in a car, and similarly if boy racers have their 5000gigawatt megabass woofer at full power it is as bad as headphones at full volume.
I agree either is a distraction, but I think more motorists listen to music while travelling than cyclists.

True, and again, what I said was personal experience. I just find that listening to headphones too quietly means i try and concentrate on the music/radio, and too loud I cant hear whats going on, must look for a happy medium
I do feel that, like the boy racers, there are people who listen to headphones too loud and cant hear whats going on. On a bike they are more vulnerable than in a car.

rubadub wrote:

There should be no real US vs THEM, since I expect the majority of people have been pedestrians, cyclists & motorists at some time. I know I have, and realise what I hate & like. I do break the laws when cycling, but if I was a motorist watching myself do this I would be thinking "fair play he is helping me". e.g. at junctions I will cross roads onto paths so cars can take off faster, I cycle on empty footpaths on narrow roads to allow cars pass. Similarly as a motorist I expect cyclists have no problem with my driving.
Do unto others....

Very true, we should all be trying to make the roads safer for everyone. Although Im not sure about the drivers being cyclists. I think that most drivers only ever cycled 1/2 a mile to the shop, or else completely forgot what its like to cycle. If more drivers were cyclists it might make cyclists lives a lot easier!

DirkVoodoo

randomname2005 wrote:

Very true, we should all be trying to make the roads safer for everyone. Although Im not sure about the drivers being cyclists. I think that most drivers only ever cycled 1/2 a mile to the shop, or else completely forgot what its like to cycle. If more drivers were cyclists it might make cyclists lives a lot easier!

This is the problem again. We are falling back into the stereotyping of what we are trying to fight against. I'm sorry random, but you can't just throw out generalizations like "most drivers only ever cycled half a mile", based on what? Give me some statistics, numbers, witnesses, FBI reports...anything!

We are no better than our friend who has nothing better to do but rant to newspapers. I have driven for 7 years, 5 of which were my daily commute to college (8km each way). I took it upon myself to cycle instead, while my car is sitting in the driveway, because it makes me feel good, I can get in quicker and its much cheaper. I'm not in it for the novelty of a wander down to the shops.

But I agree with your final point. I have much more awareness and appreciation for cyclists when I drive now. Where once I would have overtaken a little close, I now wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic before moving past, etc.

daymobrew

DirkVoodoo wrote:

But I agree with your final point. I have much more awareness and appreciation for cyclists when I drive now. Where once I would have overtaken a little close, I now wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic before moving past, etc.

I think that there is/was a driver training course in some school in the US where they took all the doors, and maybe even the windshield, off. The students were a lot more cautious in the absence of the protection of doors.

DirkVoodoo

Just found this, send it to the Irish times with some humble pie for our friend

Dublin Cycling Campaign

I'm sure most of you know it, I can't vouch for its absolute accuracy or lack of bias, but its better than a rant.

seamus

I don't believe the issue of vulnerability or speed is relevant. Just because cyclists are more vulnerable doesn't necessarily give them a right to ignore base rules.

Having experience as a motorcyclist, cyclist and car driver, I can tell you that I agree completely with the letter. A sizeable majority of commuting cyclists have absolutely no regard for traffic laws. I'm not talking about small occasional mistakes here - every road user makes them. I'm talking about blatant disregard for pedestrian crossings & traffic lights, non-use of lights, complete ignorance other road users (including other cyclists), and generally cycling in a way that causes every other road user to become wary in their presence.

All other road users make a collective attempt to obey the traffic laws most of the time. Cyclists don't. I've seen it on boards time and time again. "But traffic laws don't make sense for cyclists", "But cars don't obey the law either", "But bikes are so much more fragile", "It's only a small subset, I obey the laws". Bicycles are a form of transportation that share the road networks with other forms. Therefore they must obey the rules, or the system doesn't work. Simple as, no excuses.

The government of course is far from blameless on this. When's the last time you've seen an ad on safe cycling. Indeed, when's the last time you've seen any attempt by anyone to educate the general public on cycle safety? When's the last time you saw an RSA ad about checking your left-hand mirror before moving off? How many bicycles have been killed by trucks because they didn't have the cop to check that the truck they've undertaken was turning left?

I'm not blaming cyclists here. I'm blaming *everyone*. Cyclists need to drop them "them -v- us" attitude (even if other road users display it), and work with the agencies to bring better standards of cycling and bicycle awareness to the Irish public. Indeed, I've never understood why motorcyclists and cyclists are always at odds with eachother. Motorcyclists being the most vulnerable road users (let's face it, they go much faster), and cyclists being the next most vulnerable share a lot of the same issues.

randomname2005

DirkVoodoo wrote:

But I agree with your final point. I have much more awareness and appreciation for cyclists when I drive now. Where once I would have overtaken a little close, I now wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic before moving past, etc.

Granted, it was a generalisation but you almost prove my point for me.:D

You say that you are more aware now when you are driving because you know what it is like to cycle. If everyone had cycled a lot, do you not think that more people would be aware of the difficulties and so would be careful about pulling out past stop lines into cycle lanes, leaving more space when passing out etc?

rubadub

seamus wrote:

Having experience as a motorcyclist, cyclist and car driver.

and pedestrian??

seamus wrote:

A sizeable majority of commuting cyclists have absolutely no regard for traffic laws. I'm not talking about small occasional mistakes here - every road user makes them. I'm talking about blatant disregard for pedestrian crossings & traffic lights, non-use of lights, complete ignorance other road users (including other cyclists), and generally cycling in a way that causes every other road user to become wary in their presence.

I do see cyclists breaking road traffic laws all the time, but very rarely do I see them do it in such a manner that would cause an accident, which is primarily what the laws are in place to do. I see far more pedestrians breaking the road laws in a manner which could cause an accident, it is as though pedestrians are all considered ignorant mindless children.
Why do you think cyclists and pedestrians break road laws?
-Because they can get away with it.
Why can they get away?
Because even if the gardai see them it is usually not in a manner which would cause an accident- the main reason for these laws.

In many cases the cyclist could simply dismount and walk with the bike to stop breaking the law, e.g one way streets, zebra crossings, pedestrian crossings, traffic lights, bridges etc. The vast majority of cyclists that I see breaking the law in these cases slow down to a pace as slow or slower than pedestrians. By remaining on the bike they do not take up as much space and so prevent people bashing into pedals. On grafton street I have seen people asked to dismount, many gardai do not, most have commons sense and let a slow paced cyclist continue as they recognise they are not a threat, while will tell a speedy courier to dismount.

Cabaal

daymobrew wrote:

I think that there is/was a driver training course in some school in the US where they took all the doors, and maybe even the windshield, off. The students were a lot more cautious in the absence of the protection of doors.

Noty a bad idea to be honest, you'll really feel the speed when you can see the road wizzing by you as you look to your right when your driving, very good idea.

Cabaal

UI've seen Gardai on bikes often break more rules the normal cyclist which is very bad form, cycling slowly and two abreast on a very very busy road is common place for them it seems

think everyone is getting off the point. We're not all 7 year old kids. Just cause the bigger kid is breaking the rules, it doesn't mean we should. Sure it's not fun when they rat us out, but that's just what happens.

Just because you are less likely to kill someone on a bike, does not mean you get to break lights.

Just because you are not going to smash up someone's car does not mean you can speed down busy streets.



Stop trying to off other cyclists bad habits onto "cars do it too" "motorbikes do it too". Be bigger people..

It's easy

cyclopath2001

Cabaal wrote:

cycling slowly and two abreast on a very very busy road is common place for them it seems

That's not actually illegal. The law specifically permits cycling two-abreast at all times unless overtaking a parked car.

Titiritero

Mucco wrote:

From today Irish Times

Millions have been spent on the streets to create cycle lanes and facilities for cyclists to lock up their bikes around the town.

Why cycle lanes are just for cyclists, like a wasted tax? Are beds in hospitals just for sick people, and roads just for car owners? Because, since I don´t use them, I´d like to get my taxes back, it´s such a "waste"...

The cycling community is another community of people, like there are stamp collectors, goths, Rod Steward´s fans or Elbonians. Some are pretty, some are ugly, some respect the law and others don´t. Big deal!

What I find amusing is that the same motorists that get so p*ssed off because of cyclists not respecting traffic lights, find it perfectly normal to cross a road in red when being pedestrians. Well, if they think "it´s different", so do I!

cyclopath2001

Mucco wrote:

From today Irish Times
Millions have been spent on the streets to create cycle lanes and facilities for cyclists to lock up their bikes around the town.

Actually, this statement is untrue.

It has been claimed on a number of occasions that 20 million was spent on cycle facilities, but this figure was the original DTO budget for cycle facilities in 1998. Mostly, it was not spent on cycle facilities, but on bus lanes which could be shared with cyclists and also on parking facilities adjacent to cycle lanes.

The DTO was subsequently criticised by the Auditor and Comptroller General for being unable to account for money that was supposed to be spent exclusively on cycle facilities.

As an urban myth, this figure has been perpetuated by spin-doctors on more than one occasion, most memorably by Ivor Calelly at Velocity 2005.

Nobody knows how much money was spent on 'building' the 'Strategic Cycle Network'.

Victor

Trojan wrote:

"bikes shouldn't be on the road, you should be on the path".

"I would use the path, but there are too many cars on it" would be a good reply.

Marathon Man

Trojan wrote:

I regularly beat traffic on the 3 mile journey into town in quiet traffic, and in rush hour, well that's no contest.

Damn straight. and thats why drivers hate cyclists. theres nothing better that passing a huge mass of vehicles in rush hour traffic. i just cycle along thinking heheheheh.

Civilian_Target

rubadub wrote:

I do see cyclists breaking road traffic laws all the time, but very rarely do I see them do it in such a manner that would cause an accident...

Here's part of the problem. You're still deciding your own laws to keep... The only one I see as acceptable to break is the suicidal "Stick to the cycle lane" one!

Daymo, I'm liking the letter. Perhaps its worth including the fact that:

No cyclist wants to share the road with polluting metal boxes either, so Mr Cooke's letter also highlights the benefits of proper cycle facilities for all road users, not just cyclists. DCC's attitute to cyclists is more concerned with their outright removal than their safety and separation from other traffic.

DirkVoodoo

randomname2005 wrote:

Granted, it was a generalisation but you almost prove my point for me.:D

You say that you are more aware now when you are driving because you know what it is like to cycle. If everyone had cycled a lot, do you not think that more people would be aware of the difficulties and so would be careful about pulling out past stop lines into cycle lanes, leaving more space when passing out etc?

I think I did agree with you, in fact I said I agree with you last point in my previous post.

Also, I don't believe anyone has a right to comment on anyone elses habits or breaking of laws, let the Gardai bring them down...if they can be bothered. "He who is without sin" and all that, no one has the right to be sanctimonious when I'm sure at the very least we have all jaywalked once in our lives.

Cabaal

Marathon Man wrote:

Damn straight. and thats why drivers hate cyclists. theres nothing better that passing a huge mass of vehicles in rush hour traffic. i just cycle along thinking heheheheh.

ahj I love that feeling, especially good on a friday afternoon
Sometimes you can actually see drivers getting pissed off, especially if they get a break and they pass you and then you end up passing them again and again

rubadub

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Originally Posted by Cabaal
cycling slowly and two abreast on a very very busy road is common place for them it seems

That's not actually illegal. The law specifically permits cycling two-abreast at all times unless overtaking a parked car.

I would never cycle 2 abreast with cars coming behind me. If I was a driver I would not like cyclists to do it legal or not, therefore I wouldnt do it on a bike. I also cycle close to the kerb so cars can easily pass, even though legally I can probably stick to the middle of the road. Common sense should prevail.

Here's part of the problem. You're still deciding your own laws to keep...

This goes for every person, no matter what activity they are up to. Gardai will see these people techincally breaking laws, but they have common sense to see that the law in place was not really intended to stop that activity. e.g. recording coronation street is illegal, never heard of a conviction, but if a guy was reproducing coronation street DVDs and selling them on o'connell street he would be. AFAIK it is illegal to reverse out of your driveway. A cyclist crossing at a junction where there is obviously no danger is viewed like a pedestrian doing the same thing, would you really want taxpayers money spent prosecuting people like this, just to have a non-sensical zero tolerant police state.

When an amublance or fire engine comes along all road traffic laws go out the window. Very rarely will you see motorists done for it though, I think there was a case in the UK where some driver was though, and he wasnt doing a move that was going to cause an accident, he was just unfortunate to get a pedantic cop with no common sense.

Sometimes you can actually see drivers getting pissed off

Yes, there is a bit of jealousy. I get it myself in a car, looking at cyclists on the paths around sandyford skipping around the brutal 1-way system. Bastards getting home quicker than me, hang the lot of them, what they are doing is worse than murder

Stark

Motorists are expected to be psychic as hand signals are seldom used.

It's much easier to flick an indicator switch than it is to ride a bike with your arm outstretched, but half the motorists on the road don't seem to be able to manage this.

Civilian_Target

rubadub wrote:

When an amublance or fire engine comes along all road traffic laws go out the window. Very rarely will you see motorists done for it though, I think there was a case in the UK where some driver was though, and he wasnt doing a move that was going to cause an accident, he was just unfortunate to get a pedantic cop with no common sense.

LOL - I got done for this - I put my car in the middle of a yellow hash box to get out of the way of an ambulance and failed my driving test for it!

Cabaal

Stark wrote:

It's much easier to flick an indicator switch than it is to ride a bike with your arm outstretched, but half the motorists on the road don't seem to be able to manage this.

Don't you know some people didn't get indicators as an added extra, its up their with CD players and metallic paint :rolleyes:

As such they don't have them to use

cyclopath2001

rubadub wrote:

I would never cycle 2 abreast with cars coming behind me. If I was a driver I would not like cyclists to do it legal or not, therefore I wouldnt do it on a bike. I also cycle close to the kerb so cars can easily pass, even though legally I can probably stick to the middle of the road. Common sense should prevail.

If common sense were to prevail, we wouldn't allow motorists to waste so much useful roadspace. As for cycling close to the kerb, I think it's very noble of you to put the convenience of motorists ahead of your own personal safety.

DirkVoodoo

Well said cyclopath, aside from the increases risk of puncture from crap littering the kerbside, motorists seem more tempted to overtake dangerously if they see a gap. Don't put yourself at risk, you are an equal road user and entitled to cycle at a safe distance from the kerb/pedestrains/low flying election posters.

pete4130

I've been cycling for abotu 10 years on the streets of Dublin and here is a short summary of my observations and experiences with other non bicycle road users (mostly cars by the way as private cars make up the overwhelming majority of road users, with only a single occupant I might add).

- Countless drivers using mobile phones while driving

- Red lights broken at nearly EVERY set of lights by cars, taxi's, trucks.

- Sitting in yellow boxes blocking traffic

- Motorbikes using and then blocking cycle lanes in traffic (and the one time I bothered to point this out to a motor cyclist he got off his bike and threatened to smash my face in because "he didn't want to hear it". I forgot that he was above the law....more so than I am apparantly for being a cyclist. Is intimidation and threatening someone breaking the rules of the road? Apparantly not.

- Cars that don't indicate. They must assume they have magic indicators as everyone else is supposed to magically know when and where they are going to turn.

- Cars that see a cycle lane with a solid white line (which means you aren't supposed to cross over it according to the rules of the road) as some extra space to undertake other cars.

- Being hit side on or "T-boned" on an empty Cuffe Street in Dublin by an oblivious car coming from a side road even though I slowed down and moved away from the kerb to give the driver more time and ample opportunity to see me. The result being on the windscreen one moment and then suddenly projected through the air landing on the middle of the road about 12 feet away.

- Being stopped by a Garda cyclisng officer and being asked "Why I had no lights?". It wasn't even dark out but I felt I had to respond in kind and ask him why he had no lights either?

- A Taxi driver jumping out of his car on Kildare Street with a tyre iron because I was "in his way".

- A Porsche Chayenne driving along side me giving me abuse and feining to swerve into me as I got in his way of his excessive speeding along Clanbrassil Street.

- A motorisist who beeped me for being a pedstrian, crossing at a pedestrian crossing when I was supposed to becaue it interferred with him breaking a red light.

- Pedestrians ignoring traffic lights on an immensly larger scale than any other road user.

- A car beeping a group of cyclists I was with in Ranelagh even though traffic was going nowhere, then deliberatley cutting in leaving very little space for cyclists to get by. When his wing mirror got clipped he sped through a gap in traffic, broke a red light at a pedestrian crossing (narrowly missing a woman with a pram corssing), skidding 90 degrees on the road to mount the footpath and cycle lane to block our path sending a friend into the side of his car, over the bonnet and onto the road. Did I mention he stank of alcohol as well and the gardai still did nothing about it?

I believe that alot of frustration from drivers comes from ignorance of knowing how difficult it can be cycling a bike in this country and from seeing someone from "the other side" getting places alot more stress free. Unless you ride a bike you can't comprehend what you have to deal with on the roads here.
I do drive the odd time and when I see a cyclist I give them the space the need and deserve. From cycling so much and knowing the roads I can anticipate alot more of what the cyclist has to cope with.
I'm sure if these drivers who are so anti-cyclist had to use a bike for a week or two they'd soon change their outlook.

milod

DirkVoodoo wrote:

Don't put yourself at risk, you are an equal road user and entitled to cycle at a safe distance from the kerb/pedestrains/low flying election posters.

don't me started on f***ing election posters... but most of this rules of the road mullarkey is a red herring and accusations can also be levelled at drivers - I've been almost creamed on several occasions by motorists running red lights or stopping abrubtly in yellow boxes

It seems to me that many motorists are angered when cyclists dare to demand equality on the road. Motorists will claim the high moral ground and superior rights because they pay road tax - but that barely covers the cost of the damage caused by driving tons of metal around.

Cyclists on the other hand are actively contributing to lowering greenhouse gases by selecting human powered transport. They cause no wear on road surfaces and are more efficient in economical terms too.

I reckon many motorists resent cyclists because the sight of a physically fit, happy individual, with a negligible carbon footprint sailing past in a traffic jam forces them to accept their own stupidity... We've all seen the sheer drudge of rush hour commuting - look at the expressions on their faces! I usually can't resist a grin which of course doesn't help the motorist's mood