Anti-cyclist rant in the Times

Civilian_Target

I think one of the most important things about being a cyclist is not to be in a hurry. There's very little you can do to safely improve your speed if the traffic is heavy, and since you're so vulnerable, risk taking to save 5 mins just isn't worth it. Just take it easy, take clean breaks when you see them and leave undertaking HGVs for another day.

Interesting what you're mentioned putting up with in 10 years Pete, in 2 years I've encountered most of these things and several others such as:

- SUV soccer mom clipping me into kerb with wing mirror, without noticing
- Delivery vans squeezing me off a road that's perfectly wide enough for all
- Being overtaken and then turned left upon at junctions and roundabouts, despite clearly indicating my own direction
- Witnessed cyclists running into other cyclists
- Witnessed cyclists running into pedestrians
- Almost whacked people being randomly left out of busses into cycle lanes between stops
- Been beeped at for travelling at a consistant 25 mph in a 30 mph zone by a sports car so desperate to overtake he almost ran into a traffic island
- Been beeped for failing to take off quickly enough... at a light that had yet to actually turn green!
- Been taken out by an unparking white van, who even saw me in his mirror!

luckat

We need to agitate for a proper system of cycle roads, not cycle lanes - totally separated from the road by their own kerb, and with their own lights.

rubadub

cyclopath2001 wrote:

As for cycling close to the kerb, I think it's very noble of you to put the convenience of motorists ahead of your own personal safety.

Acutally it for my own personal safety that I do it. I find if you inconvenience some motorists in any way, then they will see fit to put your life/body at risk. Reading some of the posts here would make me even more sure of my view on this. When I break road traffic laws 95% of the time it is for my own personal safety, which usually does make it easier for motorists, since I am out of their way and out of the danger of them.

DirkVoodoo

milod wrote:

don't me started on f***ing election posters... but most of this rules of the road mullarkey is a red herring and accusations can also be levelled at drivers - I've been almost creamed on several occasions by motorists running red lights or stopping abrubtly in yellow boxes

Yeah I drove in today (forgiveness please!) and at the junction of loretto the light had been red for a few seconds, maybe 10. So, naturally I slow down and come to a stop. Then, I see this older woman, maybe 50s/60s, in an audi a3 come up the inside, not speeding, not trying to run a red light that had been red for sometime, but she just drives clean straight through the junction, not a bother on her. Saw her driving the whole way down the dualer, very much unable to keep her car between the white lines on either side. I mean, if it hadnt been 9:30 am I would have sworn she was pissed. Anyway, saw her (hey, Im attentive and use my mirrors a lot, dont worry!) turn left up that sliproad in stillorgan, ya know the one by bolands pub? And I was thinking to myself, geez im glad i didnt cycle cuz i hate that bit where cars have to cross the cycle lane to go up that road, im sure if a cyclist had been there, she wouldnt have even checked her blindspot.

Scary stuff when you see how some people pilot a few tons of steel travelling at 60 km/h.

luckat

Cyclists and bicycles are the canary in the coalmine for all kinds of issues, including safety and criminality.

In a garda station filling out a form for a passport the other day I was chatting desultorily with the young cop behind the counter, and nostalgically mentioned how the Gardai used to keep a register of all bicycle frame numbers, and if a bicycle was stolen, they'd be liable to stop cyclists and ask them to turn up their bike and show their number.

Lazybones said "You couldn't do that now - you'd be doing nothing else!" - and it's a typical garda attitude. Stolen bicycles are the profitable training ground of young criminals, leading them on to even more profitable crimes, because they succeed without being caught or sanctioned in this first crime.

And cyclists (myself included) regularly cycle without lights, because if you leave your lights on your bike they are inevitably stolen. If you want to cycle legally you have to carry a huge bag of lights, rain gear, helmet, etc.

Cyclists who crash red lights when nothing's coming arouse the rage of motorists, pedestrians and coppers, while garda cars whizz around with the drivers talking on the mobile phone with one hand, eating a burger with the other and steering with their knees and elbows.

It's a mad world, I tell you.

rubadub

luckat wrote:

Lazybones said "You couldn't do that now - you'd be doing nothing else!" - and it's a typical garda attitude.

Terrible attitude, if they did start to do it people would be caught and prosecuted so theft would go down, then they wouldnt be doing "nothing else", same could be said of stolen cars, if the gardai didnt give a crap about car theft they would be nicked left right & centre and they would go looking for them since there would be too many to catch.

Bicycle theft is still seen as a bully stealing a 6 year olds lunch in a playground, even if the bike cost more than a second hand BMW

randomname2005

DirkVoodoo wrote:

Also, I don't believe anyone has a right to comment on anyone elses habits or breaking of laws, let the Gardai bring them down...if they can be bothered. "He who is without sin" and all that, no one has the right to be sanctimonious when I'm sure at the very least we have all jaywalked once in our lives.

QFT.

Cabaal

rubadub wrote:

Bicycle theft is still seen as a bully stealing a 6 year olds lunch in a playground, even if the bike cost more than a second hand BMW

I have to agree, in fairness there's some bikes on the road worth more then alot of cars on the road....and in better condition

Money Shot

luckat wrote:

Stolen bicycles are the profitable training ground of young criminals, leading them on to even more profitable crimes, because they succeed without being caught or sanctioned in this first crime.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a bit like Rudy Guilliani's broken window theory which served him so well in cleaning up New Yorks chronic crime rates. According to the broken windows theory, fighting the seemingly minor indicators of neighborhood decay and disorder, such as broken windows, graffiti, seemingly petty thefts (bicycles ?) even litter - helps prevent major crimes in the future. It's hard to argue with the logic. Any of us who have kids will know that they always test the boundaries - if they get away with one thing, they will try and get away with more next time. It's human nature.

I suppose we will have to see if the next Minister for Justice has enough moral courage to actually tackle the problem.

Shaymoboy

Nows a good time to get the cycling issue on the political agenda. Mention it to your TD when he/shecalls, more decent cycle paths etc.

S

cyclopath2001

Shaymoboy wrote:

Nows a good time to get the cycling issue on the political agenda. Mention it to your TD when he/she calls, more decent cycle paths etc.
S

Well, the PDs who legislated to allow cars use cycle tracks, decided not to stand in my constituency. Perhaps this was for their own safety.

Ivor Calelly of Velocity 2005 fame is keeping a low profile since the city council did its usual half-baked job on cycle tracks, right past his office too.

A nice lady from FG did call, but left her SUV parked on the path outside.

The independent Finian McGrath has lethal posters at decapitation height, sticking into the Clontarf cycle track.

Hmm, maybe Labour, SF or the greens, havn't seen them yet.

Marathon Man

pete4130 wrote:

I believe that alot of frustration from drivers comes from ignorance of knowing how difficult it can be cycling a bike in this country and from seeing someone from "the other side" getting places alot more stress free. Unless you ride a bike you can't comprehend what you have to deal with on the roads here.
I do drive the odd time and when I see a cyclist I give them the space the need and deserve. From cycling so much and knowing the roads I can anticipate alot more of what the cyclist has to cope with.
I'm sure if these drivers who are so anti-cyclist had to use a bike for a week or two they'd soon change their outlook.

Agreed. I think it would be a good idea to make it compulsory for people to have to cycle for a set time before being able to get a driving licence. It would go a long way towards increasing driver awareness toward cyclists and indeed make people better drivers.

Stark

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Hmm, maybe Labour, SF or the greens, havn't seen them yet.

Labour said a while back that they wanted to make cycling a priority. Whether it was an empty promise or not remains to be seen.

Ghost Rider

Labour have gone a bit further than that:

http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/11771498271708981.html

Stark wrote:

Labour said a while back that they wanted to make cycling a priority. Whether it was an empty promise or not remains to be seen.

DeepBlue

luckat wrote:

And cyclists (myself included) regularly cycle without lights, because if you leave your lights on your bike they are inevitably stolen. If you want to cycle legally you have to carry a huge bag of lights, rain gear, helmet, etc.

There's really no excuse not to have a set of lights.
They are so small now and easily fit in a jacket pocket so it's impossible to have sympathy for anyone that doesn't carry lights around.

AFAIK helmets aren't a legal requirement and wet gear is a matter of choice so I don't see how cycling legally with a pair of lights is so onerous .

mikemac

Since this thread was started by a guy on a motorbike, I'd like to add my piece.

I own a 50cc moped which I drive around town.
Last month I bought a bicycle in an attempt to get fit and do some exercise.

I take my hat off to you cyclists.
Being on a moped/motorbike is dangerous but being a cyclist is a hell of a lot more dangerous.

I still can't figure out how to get into the right hand lane of a busy road as when I'm in the cycle lane and indicate right, people in cars just speed past me.
And when I cycle around a roundabout, cars beep at me for not going fast enough.
I admit to breaking red lights but only at pedestrian crossings when it is safe: never at junctions.

I've given up cycling to work-I'm just not brave enough:(
At least on a moped you can keep up with traffic.

I would like to say that cyclists and motorcylists may attack each other over rules of the road but remember, it's highly unlikely a motorcyclist will ever hit a cyclist-simply because they are 100% more aware than your average car driver and 200% more aware than your average SUV/White Van driver. We are both vunerable road users
Do you know when training that motorcyclists are thought to check before every turn to check for cyclists when turning left.
I find Dublin Bus drivers to be excellent though as they actually use indicators and they are very predictable

Raskolnikov

I'm a cyclist; but one of my biggest pet peeves is cyclists listening to earphones while on the road. As cyclists, we have a limited sense of the road without depriving ourselves of our hearing.

tywy

I listen to earphones when cycling just not very high. I find I'm more likely to look before I try anything and make 100% sure it's safe before I pull out or whatever. I normally have my earphones at a level where I can still hear what's going on around me. As was said earlier, it's just as distracting to have a big sound system in a car up full.

Just about the mail into the Times, I find it quite funny that a motorcyclist wrote into the paper about it, they're not exactly perfect drivers themselves. I often get stuck behind a motorbike in the cycle lane who is too wide to go up the inside and the same speed as me on my bike, it's quite irritating too when they get to the stage where they have to stop and you're stuck behind them even though they aren't supposed to be there. I also find the majority of motorcyclists *I* see on main roads travel a hell of a lot faster than cars. I live on a main road and I regularly see motorbikes going about 80km/hr in a 50 km/hr zone.

It may be unlikely to get hit on your bike by a motorbike but I was. Total freak accident. The road was slick this particular morning I was cycling down Rathgar Road. A car pulled out of a side road in front of me but I was far enough away that I didn't have to brake. When I was just beyond the side road I got knocked off my bike from behind. I was hit by a motorbike. The car had pulled out in front of the motorbike, the motorbike braked, the wheel locked, driver came off his bike, the bike skidded down the road and clipped my bike. I was fine just a bit sore for a few days. Now, I do accept that the car driver was probably wrong to pull out when he did but when I think about the time between the car pulling out in front of me and the motorbike hitting me, the motorbike must have been going pretty fast.

I dunno, I just don't think motorcyclists are people to talk to other people about safety, from what I see around the city.

Civilian_Target

micmclo wrote:

I admit to breaking red lights but only at pedestrian crossings when it is safe: never at junctions.

I don't buy that - what if you hit a pedestrian, there's absolutely no recourse to that and it happens very easily. Plus it gives other road users a reason to hate you.

I would like to say that cyclists and motorcylists may attack each other over rules of the road but remember, it's highly unlikely a motorcyclist will ever hit a cyclist-simply because they are 100% more aware than your average car driver and 200% more aware than your average SUV/White Van driver. We are both vunerable road users

That's as maybe, but a lot of motorcyclists are speed demons and often underappreciate the amount of room cyclists actually need on the road. On a number of occasions I've been undertaken by motorcyclists travelling at speed with only milimetres of clearance. That's just crazy!

I find Dublin Bus drivers to be excellent though as they actually use indicators and they are very predictable

Now this I do agree on. So much so that I'm actually tempted to write to Dublin Bus to thank them for their pro-cycling stance. With only the very rare exception, their drivers are excellent. Can't say the same of London bus operators.

Capt'n Midnight

Raskolnikov wrote:

I'm a cyclist; but one of my biggest pet peeves is cyclists listening to earphones while on the road. As cyclists, we have a limited sense of the road without depriving ourselves of our hearing.

Ambulances have had to get louder sirens because motorists are so cacooned in the cars, the fact that you can't hear the noise outside is a selling point !

When I used to listen to a walkman I'd have the head phones a bit louder but behind my ears so I'd still get full directionality on external sounds. When driving and I hear an ambulance I wind down the window a tad to try to figure out which way the ambulance is coming from. Amazing how many motorists almost see it before they take notice :mad: And that's on the Belgard road where during peak hours "bus lane not in use" means that Emergency vehicles from the Fire station end up going down the wrong side of the dual carrige way. When they try doing down the correct side it's scary how close the ambulance has to be before motorists start to move, when by leaving gaps , following the keep left rule, turning down the radios OR having a bus lane could be all that's needed.

DirkVoodoo

tywy wrote:

I listen to earphones when cycling just not very high. I find I'm more likely to look before I try anything and make 100% sure it's safe before I pull out or whatever. I normally have my earphones at a level where I can still hear what's going on around me. As was said earlier, it's just as distracting to have a big sound system in a car up full.

Exactly. I listen to my earphones, but I can still hear cars and everything around me. Its easy to see a cyclist doing something wrong (headphones, cycling hands free, texting, etc.) because they are so exposed. I saw a woman driving her car with ipod white headphones in both ears (hey, i guess her radio was broekn so its ok ), everyone sees people texting/calling while driving on a daily basis, I remember a trip across to galway a guy in a van behind us, to my incredible disbelief, was using his knees to steer while his hands were busy with a phone...at a decent speed too. The increased level of "drug dealer" grade tinted windows that seem to be used by soccer moms in SUVs makes you wonder what have they go to hide? I mean my mum's car has tinted rear windows fitted by the manufacturer which reduce sun glare, but you can still see through them. This stuff is all-round, pitch black stuff, which I thought was illegal?

Mucco

Civilian_Target wrote:

micmclo wrote:

I admit to breaking red lights but only at pedestrian crossings when it is safe: never at junctions.

I don't buy that - what if you hit a pedestrian, there's absolutely no recourse to that and it happens very easily. Plus it gives other road users a reason to hate you.

It's fairly simple to treat every traffic light as a stop sign, and every pedestrian light as a zebra crossing. How often have you hit a ped on a zebra crossing?

....I'm actually tempted to write to Dublin Bus to thank them for their pro-cycling stance. With only the very rare exception, their drivers are excellent.

You've obviously not cycled on the N11 bus/cycle lane very often!

Civilian_Target

Mucco wrote:

It's fairly simple to treat every traffic light as a stop sign, and every pedestrian light as a zebra crossing. How often have you hit a ped on a zebra crossing?

I've actually almost hit pedestrians twice at zebra crossings - appearing without warning from behind vans and busses in heavy traffic. Only gut instinct and good brakes saved me from collision! Needless to say, I always kill my speed approaching zebra crossings now and ensure I have a full view.

Ped Lights are worse because pedestrians know they have right of way and tend not to look before stepping on the road, leaving you completely in the wrong if you hit them. They usually look before stepping out into a zebra crossing

You've obviously not cycled on the N11 bus/cycle lane very often!

I have, I cycled it daily for an entire summer. It's fine, the drivers are usually superb. Try London....

daymobrew

Civilian_Target wrote:

So much so that I'm actually tempted to write to Dublin Bus to thank them for their pro-cycling stance. With only the very rare exception, their drivers are excellent.

I did write to DB a few years ago. The reply said that praise was rare in the letters they received and they were delighted with the compliments (I was thanking them for waiting until I pass a bus stop before they pull in, thus not delaying me).

DirkVoodoo

I agree with Mucco's point, a lot of cyclist decision has to be up to personal judgement and thus requires some bending of the rules. Im not advocating a wild west approach here, but the recurring theme in this thread seems to bee "apply common sense here".

For example, I pass the pedestrian crossing opposite St.John of God on the N11 Daily. It is a wide, open crossing. A few yards past the crossing is a bus stop. Now, by the letter of the law, I should stop and have done when its clogged with pedestrians. However, most times it is either clear to pass, with no pedestrian in view. Do I stop my bike and start off again? If there is a bus beside me, looking to pull in, do I fight to get ahead? What if he is a jerk and tries to cut me off at the bus stop?

Civilian_Target

Yep - it's not a road fight you know, and if you're occupying a out-of-kerb position on the bus lane you should be safe enough. Sure, it slows down your journey by a few seconds, but honestly, are you in that much of a rush?

saobh_ie

The roads haven't been designed with giving thought to anybody on two wheels. A motorcyclist myself I see cyclists (tempted to put a full stop here =D) do crazy **** daily, motorcyclists less often as theres less of us and we can't get away with it, I see cars and vans doing crazy stuff any time I have my eyes open.

It's no big deal, for sure I'm going to come off worse for wear if the car driver beside me makes a mistake but its up to me to account for that and be ready to save myself.

I've just bought a bicycle... and I am terrified. I'm going to be at the mercy of car drivers, I'll be slow moving, and unable to manouver, accelerate or brake. I'll be nearly silent, unable to maike noise and if a fifth of a tonne motorcycle with big assed head and light lights is invisible to the average motorist whats a 10kg bicycle going to look like, a black hole or something.

I'm suprised to see a letter from a motorcyclist ranting about a cyclist, I look at them (well not all of them) as brave soles, kindred spirits, dealing with the same crazy crap as us, but much less well equipped (as outlined above, and thats before it rains).

Except for that cyclist who crashed into me and pissed off two weeks again. If I see her again I'm throwing a bungee cord into her front wheel. Mhuhahaha!

DadaKopf

Motorcyclists terrible at sticking to the rules, too. So often, I'd be having to share a cycling lane with a motorbike or moped. The same goes for the cycle boxes at traffic lights/junctions.

I'm all for better cyclists. Personally, I try to obey the rules of the road at all time, and consider myself first an formost a 'commuter'. It just happens I commute by bike, so I try to behave in a similar way to cars. The terror comes when you know that it takes a driver to bend the rules once for you to be killed, even though you may be obeying the rules to the letter.

But at least when you *are* hit, you can assure the court that the driver was at fault, not you.

And how many people are saying the same stuff about pedestrians. In the city centre, they are the single-most dangerous object on the road. We also need a campaign, like in Scandinavian countries, where jay-walking and crossing without a green man, is a prosecutable offence.

DavyD_83

Raskolnikov wrote:

I'm a cyclist; but one of my biggest pet peeves is cyclists listening to earphones while on the road. As cyclists, we have a limited sense of the road without depriving ourselves of our hearing.

hmmm... How u figure? Far as i'm concerned cyclists are (or at least should be) the road users with the best 'sense of the road'. I don't see many drivers noticing every tiny hole in the road or the intimidating breeze as a truck passes them.
IMO cyclists have the closest thing to direct sensory contact with the world around them of all road users (pedestrians don't count). Surely slightly dampening one of these senses as in the case of earphones is far less dangerous than encasing yourself in tons of metal, obscuring your view with panels on all sides and then filling it with the sound of a radio, not to mention kids, make-up, cigarettes, phones...
Methinks limited common sense is the biggest problem whatever peoples mode of transport.
In case it wasn't blatantly obvious i am a cyclist . I am also a fully licenced driver tho. And personally i feel far more at risk of incident in a car, purely because of that diminished awareness of my surroundings

Civilian_Target

lol! Nothing wrong with pedestrians, they make a soft landing