Macbeth- What to study??

dan719

I actually admire Duncan, I believe his supposed ineffectual efforts during the battle at the play's beginning are indicitive of the peaceful and prosperous reign he has enjoyed. He is not required to be proficent in war because he avoids it by diplomacy. Not only that but when your would be killer describes you as follows you must have something goin for you!'Hath been so meek, so uncorrupted in his great office that his virtues will plead like angels trumper tongued against the deep damnation of his taking off':D

dan719

Rozabeez wrote:

But the witches were said to use prophecies to play on the minds of people, I believe they were fully aware of what would happen.

But their power is very much limited 'though his bark cannot be lost' and are themselves in servitude to Hecate. The witches could just as possibly represent Macbeth's own ambition(and that of baquo-he too chooses immorality in the hope-he will get kings)

analyse this

I suppose it depends on whether you believe in fate or free choice? Does Macbeth choose this route by his own free will, or was his disintegration to evil, crazed usurper his destiny? No matter how strong his self-control and will, had his fate had been laid out for centuries?

dan719

analyse this wrote:

I suppose it depends on whether you believe in fate or free choice? Does Macbeth choose this route by his own free will, or was his disintegration to evil, crazed usurper his destiny? No matter how strong his self-control and will, had his fate had been laid out for centuries?

Do you live your life by the assumption of free will? And predestination is not an acceptable excuse in a course of law, why should it be so in literature? I have a few posts on the philosophy forum under this exact same question if you want to take a look. Excessive laziness prevents me from reproducing them here.;)

analyse this

Do you live your life by the assumption of free will?

Is that an actual question or an hypothetical one?

Rozabeez

I believe in free will, but I also believe that peoples' minds can be influenced by others. How else do you explain people smoking due to peer pressure, as a simple example?

It depends on the strength of that person's will, I believe Macbeth's wasn't very strong as he DIDN'T want to commit the murder, he told his wife he wasn't going to do it, but she still influenced him.

Moral of the story: Women are evil.

analyse this

Do you live your life by the assumption of free will?

But don't we also live our life by the assumption of the existence of God?

analyse this

JSK 252 wrote:

Whats the problem with Douglas? Is it below you or something. No need to be like that. Its uncalled for.

Douglas and Rochestown ( where I live) is the best place to live in the Cork region if I may say so.

Oh god I hate when people start getting offended on the internet!! Especially over such menial things! Choose your battles dude! Wait until you actually have something to moan about! Your constant bickering and moaning is becoming very arduous to ignore!

dan719

analyse this wrote:

But don't we also live our life by the assumption of the existence of God?

No I don't, I'm an atheist. And it is a question, do we live by the assumption of free will?I believe we do, otherwise life is merely a process that we endure. Also I don't believe in fate so I cannot accept that Macbeth was merely a cog in the inexorable machine that is life. Also see above for refutation of the claim he was convinced.It proceeds along the lines 'he wanted to be convinced..'

analyse this

dan719 wrote:

No I don't, I'm an atheist. And it is a question, do we live by the assumption of free will?I believe we do, otherwise life is merely a process that we endure. Also I don't believe in fate so I cannot accept that Macbeth was merely a cog in the inexorable machine that is life. Also see above for refutation of the claim he was convinced.It proceeds along the lines 'he wanted to be convinced..'

Don't confuse my above question regarding free will vs fate as my personal belief. I am, in fact, completely in agreement with you. See my long post above:)

SamHamilton

Macbeth didn't originally WANT to commit the murder of Duncan, but Lady.M pushed him and pushed him

The only reason Macbeth was hesitant to murder Duncan was because he was afraid of the consequences, not the act. "If the assassination could trammel up the consequence...we'd jump the life to come."

Well though he brutally murders so many, the existence of his poetic self ie. "Out, Out..." and the regret he expresses at what he's done towards the end, "My soul is too much charged..." indicates hes not just a mere villain in my view. There is a sense of wasted potential and although we are rightly horrified by Macbeths tyrannical rule theres an element of sympathy I think due to his rapid descent into tyranny despite the potential for good that surfaces occasionally.

You have to feel kind of sorry for him though

but that wasn't the REAL Macbeth

Macbeth was always evil. He was just very good at hiding it. Where in the play do we see his benevolent side? During the scene in which Macbeth is trying to convince the readers that Banquo was a 'bad man' he states that he "held (the people)...under fortune" and that it was Banquo's "heavy hand (that) bow'd (them) to the grave and beggar'd (their children) for ever" - when it was, in fact, Macbeth who did all these things. So he was a villain before the murder.

The only thing that doesn't sit with this idea is Lady Macbeth's statement that Macbeth is "too full of the milk of human kindness" etc. but is it so hard to believe that Macbeth was deceiving Lady Macbeth as well? He seems very good at making everyone believe that he is "valiant" and a "worthy gentleman".

For these reasons I have no sympathy for Macbeth at all. Macbeth has always been regarded as a good man who is ruined by ambition. It is my view that Shakespeare was trying to show how a person's true nature will eventually come through.

However, I would never say that anyone is WRONG to have sympathy for Macbeth. He is afterall the main character of the play and we are, invariably, going to have a stronger connection with him than with the other characters. Plus, as Marshy indicated, Macbeth's sensitive nature can be confusing and prey on the reader's hope for Macbeth to choose the side of good so we can relate with him. I find, when I read, that I want to relate to the main character.

That's just my personal opinion.:D Obviously my low B's in English show that not many agree with me!:D

lilmizzme

SamHamilton wrote:

Macbeth was always evil. He was just very good at hiding it. Where in the play do we see his benevolent side?

Why does he need a benevolent side for us to have sympathy for him...surely the picture of the man undone has some purchase on your emotions...look at the pathetic form he was reduced to just because he gave into his human, natural credentials....he went from being a brave and noble warrior to someone loathed by his friends and his country, dying a shameful and pathetic death...

SamHamilton

he went from being a brave and noble warrior

There is no doubt that he was brave but noble...that is questionable. The fact that the thought of murdering Duncan was the first thing to come into his head when the witches said that he would be king illustrates that he had alteriour motives from the beginning. Plus, as illustrated in my previous message, Macbeth was keeping people under fortune and had a heavy hand as a landlord, "beggar(ing) (children) for ever" so he wasn't really a good man.
Does noble suggest good? I think so.

he went from being a brave and noble warrior to someone loathed by his friends and his country, dying a shameful and pathetic death

Yes (well I've given my opinion on him being noble at the beginning of the play and feel he was always evil, that he merely hid his true nature), and when you say it like that you might have some sympathy for him but what happens between those two stages - being brave and noble and then being loathed - is undeniably horrendous and inhumane! He deserves to be loathed!

surely the picture of the man undone has some purchase on your emotions

Macbeth seems to become so corrupted and steeped in evil that it is almost unimaginable. He becomes stripped of any redeeming qualities and does not represent a human being by the crux of the play! He has "supp'd full with horrors" and his "slaughterous thoughts cannot...start (him)". He is devoid of a conscience - the very thing that makes us human! So by the end of the play when he is humiliated, Macbeth is merely an empty vessel - a charicature even - and his speeches - the ones that evoke sympathy in some people - seem to me to be brought about by cowardice and nothing else. They mirror his soliloquy before the murder of Duncan in which he wants him dead but is afraid of the consequences. It seems to me that had Macbeth not been reprimanded, he would not regret his actions. He only regrets Banquo's murder because he has not secured the crown. He is utterly machiavellion.

So, because he is placed at such an extreme end of the 'good - evil' spectrum, he no longer seems to be a man.

Plus, I find it so odd that no one feels relieved at his death! Macduff gets the revenge he deserves (not that I believe in the old an eye for an eye...but at that time pride was a HUGE issue) and England is finally released from "the snares of...tyranny." I think it's the fact that he is the main character. If Macduff was the main character, it would be an entirely different story(yes I realise what I just said! But humour me!:D ).

shazzyshaz

Big tip:

Evil
Theme of relationships

dan719

SamHamilton I think you meant SCOTLAND is released from the snares of tyranny, but I do agree with your interpratation of Macbeth as a malovent cruel and unsympathetic charecter. See earlier post.:D

SamHamilton

Yay dan719! Someone who agrees with me. And yes I did mean Scotland!:o

And regarding the whole Lady Macbeth issue, I think she rocks! It's not only the suicide and torment that makes me sympathetic towards Lady Macbeth, it's the fact that she had to call upon spirits and drink alcohol to make her 'bold' enough to stick to the plan and encourage Macbeth. Obviously she shouldn't have told Macbeth to murder Duncan but it is clear that she does it out of the immense love she has for her husband not out of evil. She's blinded by love.

Also, about the idea of destiny and free will:

Does Macbeth choose this route by his own free will, or was his disintegration to evil, crazed usurper his destiny?

I think we have to establish what the witches are? Are they in fact tangible things? Could they be personifications of emotions etc.? Do they merely give voice to Macbeth and Banquo's ambition? After all, Banquo seems to be as ambitious as Macbeth. The one soliloquy he has shows this: he doesn't speak out about Macbeth, he just hopes that the witches will be his "oracles as well".

What do you think?

analyse this

lilmizzme wrote:

Why does he need a benevolent side for us to have sympathy for him...surely the picture of the man undone has some purchase on your emotions...look at the pathetic form he was reduced to just because he gave into his human, natural credentials....he went from being a brave and noble warrior to someone loathed by his friends and his country, dying a shameful and pathetic death...

There is a difference between sympathy and pity.

Limerick Dude

Rozabeez wrote:

You have to feel kind of sorry for him though, he lost his mind really, didn't he? I mean the witches picked him as their victim at the beginning and his fate was mapped out, all of us have a weakness and his was ambition, which the witches and his own wife, the woman who's meant to love him for who he is, played on. Macbeth didn't originally WANT to commit the murder of Duncan, but Lady.M pushed him and pushed him until it seemed like a case of do it or lose the one person he truly loves. Then the guilt of what he did, well it drove him crazy. He became obsessive over his thrown because of what he had to do to achieve it, therefore did what he had to in order to maintain it.

Yes, Macbeth killed his best friend and some innocent people, but that wasn't the REAL Macbeth, that was Macbeth AFTER he went sort of crazy. You have to feel sorry for someone that lets others push him into destroying his own life so much so that his own sense of guilt disappears.

Well that's my opinion anyway.

Yep thats my interpetation of Macbeths character pretty much aswel.

md99

JSK 252 wrote:

Whats the problem with Douglas? Is it below you or something.

Yes

Plus, I find it so odd that no one feels relieved at his death! Macduff gets the revenge he deserves (not that I believe in the old an eye for an eye...but at that time pride was a HUGE issue) and England is finally released from "the snares of...tyranny." I think it's the fact that he is the main character. If Macduff was the main character, it would be an entirely different story(yes I realise what I just said! But humour me! ).

I found it incredibly relieving, only it happened so late! :mad: He had it coming since Act III...

SamHamilton

You have to feel sorry for someone that lets others push him into destroying his own life so much so that his own sense of guilt disappears.

Yep thats my interpetation of Macbeths character pretty much aswel.

Why do you feel he was "push(ed)...into destroying his own life"? Lady Macbeth encouraged him to murder Duncan yes, but she wasn't involved in the murder of Banquo. And the witches...they said that he "shalt be king hereafter" and Macbeth acted on that. It is Macbeth that then goes looking for the witches and even then he doesn't listen to them. They say not to be afraid of Macduff (or so Macbeth interprets) yet Macbeth decides to kill him and "all unfortunate souls that trace (macduff) in his line."

Plus, I'm not so sure that the witches ARE witches. Couldn't they be embodiments of Macbeth's ambition or something? I'd love to hear your opinions on the witches.

SamHamilton

I found it incredibly relieving, only it happened so late! He had it coming since Act III...

It seems that we have split into two camps: those who pity Macbeth and those who think he gets what he deserves.

I agree with md99. It seems unquestionable to me. If this was a television program or a modern text no one would question Macbeth's evil and his horrendous actions. He would be classed as a stereotypical villain if he was a minor character. It's strange what soliloquys can do. Because we get a glimpse into Macbeth's thoughts he seems more human(to some) and when reading "Macbeth" I always wonder what it would be like if Banquo had more soliloquies. Every villain (and I hate using that word by the way) in every piece of fiction would be looked at so much differently if one could gain an insight into their thoughts as we do in this play.

Sorry, just random thoughts being vomited onto this post!:D

Limerick Dude

Well i believe he does get what he deserves, he killed the king, his best friend and innocent wife and children, so his death is just karma and it has to happen.

Though that is no reason to not feel some level of sympathy for him, i hope im not contradicting myself here.
I just feel sorry for him in the sense that he didnt want to go ahead with the murder in the first place, he even came to the conclusion that it will only have bad consequences, and thats when he tells his wife that he aint going ahead with it. Unfortunately for Macbeth his wife conjules him into going ahead with it, and from that point the only direction Macbeth is going is downwards.

dan719

But is the ability to make some of his readers believe Macbeth is inherently good rather then a malovent spiteful self serving man not Shakesphere's great triumph in the play?:D

You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time and that time is just long enough to become the president of the united states. lol I feel its applicable.

In summation

'So fair and foul a day I have not seen' Echoes the witches opening words, he is similar to the witches in more then this...

'The thought which is yet fantastical' Macbeth immediately thinks of killing Duncan and I believe he has thought of it before, suggests a thirst for violance.

'My mind was wrought with things already forgotten' Immediately Macbeth attempts to decieve. He is a liar and a fraud. He becomes a fraudulent king.

'Stars hide your fires. let not light see my deep and dark desires.' More deception, immediately retreats to darkness(evil) and rejects light(goodness)

And so on.

SamHamilton

'So fair and foul a day I have not seen' Echoes the witches opening words, he is similar to the witches in more then this...

I'm glad you brought this up. This is one of the reasons I believe the witches to be a voice for Macbeth's thoughts, ambitions, etc.

But is the ability to make some of his readers believe Macbeth is inherently good rather then a malovent spiteful self serving man not Shakesphere's great triumph in the play?

It's rather funny isn't it? And it links in with the theme of deception running throughout the entire play. "look like the innocent flower but be the serpent under't" etc. It's as if the entire play is a deception! Because the play is shown from Macbeth's point of view, the 'bad guy''s point of view, we are deceived into believing that he is good!

I think I'll use that in an answer but I can almost see the red biro littering the page...

dan719

SamHamilton wrote:

I'm glad you brought this up. This is one of the reasons I believe the witches to be a voice for Macbeth's thoughts, ambitions, etc.



It's rather funny isn't it? And it links in with the theme of deception running throughout the entire play. "look like the innocent flower but be the serpent under't" etc. It's as if the entire play is a deception! Because the play is shown from Macbeth's point of view, the 'bad guy''s point of view, we are deceived into believing that he is good!

I think I'll use that in an answer but I can almost see the red biro littering the page...

I know, blinkered English teachers. I lost marks in an essay on Lady Macbeth for stating that her apparently evil charecter was merely a facade created by Shakesphere to appease what was (and sometimes still appears to be) a very sexist and male dominated society. But that once her complex charecter which is more appealing then that of her husband is examined- a strong feminist trait is uncovered in Shakesphere himself. i.e Lady Macbeth is what her husband isn't, strong of both word and deed, self controlled to a point and loyal throughout the play. But she is also very human- 'had he not resembled my father as he slept I would have done it'(no such qualms occur to Macbeth in the final moments of Duncan's life) and is unable to live with her guilt 'out damn spot.... will all the perfumes of arabia sweeten this little hand' and this leads to her suicide.

SamHamilton

I know, blinkered English teachers

Thank you! It's so annoying:mad: ! They say they want originality but when you write down something against the grain like "Macbeth is evil from beginning to end" you have to spend at least half a page justifying yourself whereas someone who regurgitates cliff notes doesn't have to justify their 'opinion.'

I hope English is different in university. Can't wait to get there. I spend all my time looking up the TCD website! If I spent that time studying....!:D

dan719

SamHamilton wrote:

Thank you! It's so annoying:mad: ! They say they want originality but when you write down something against the grain like "Macbeth is evil from beginning to end" you have to spend at least half a page justifying yourself whereas someone who regurgitates cliff notes doesn't have to justify their 'opinion.'

I hope English is different in university. Can't wait to get there. I spend all my time looking up the TCD website! If I spent that time studying....!:D

Oh your doing english in trinity. good stuff. As far as I am aware(I know some people doing the course) there is much more emphasis on individual thought and also in trends in literature as opposed to individual titles.:D

SamHamilton

Oh your doing english in trinity. good stuff.

Well, hopefully!

dan719

I'll see you in the literature society so!:D

SamHamilton

Awesome! What are you going to study with English? Or are you doing English Studies? I'm thinking French but maybe classical civilisations or hist. of art and arh. or maths or latin or....!