REQ: Advice about Penalty Fares on Trains

sikes

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this. I have, for a long time, often had to get onto the train at my dart station because there is too long a queue at the one server on the northbound platform, without paying for my ticket. However, I have always paid at my destination and this has never been a problem.

On the 23rd April, I was stopped after declaring that I wished to buy my ticket and told to give my details to an officer who ignored the reasoning as to why I didn’t have a ticket. He took my name and address and I received a 50e fine.

I have written a lengthy reply to the letter and will seek legal advice, but am looking if anyone here has any experience in this matter.

It is not my fault they have inadequate facilities to allow me to purchase my ticket at the origin. Also to change policy without ever telling me what I was doing was wrong, is pathetic.

They are also handing out pamphlets now and putting up signs stating that you must have a ticket before travelling or you will be liable to a penalty fare. The result of this is that fare prices for dart travel after 10 at night at my station costs the penalty fare of 50e, as it is closed. I am absolutely amazed at the level of retardation in some people and perhaps a culling of such idiots is in order.

mikemac

I don't think you have a case at all and are being pretty harsh on the staff.

The ticket booth was open so you had every opportunity to buy a ticket but you didn't allow time for this.

AFAIK, it's always been the case that you needed a ticket before travelling.
The inspector could then use discretion if for instance there was no ticket booth, ie. Broombridge.
This doesn't apply in your case.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055022531&highlight=train+ticket+fine
Read this thread-it was going on for months but I don't think the OP got anywhere in the end.

sikes

There has been a case in Malahide where the queue was too long and CIE went to court and lost. Its very basic queuing theory, from what I understand, though I have limited knowledge. 1 server is not enough.

I don’t think I am being harsh at all. Here is an example. Its 10 at night and the ticket offices and electronic machines are locked away, as is the case at a lot of the smaller stations. The only thing I am greeted with is a big sign that says if I get onto the train without a valid I WILL be liable to a penalty fare. Basically with this new policy, all dart services after 10 o’clock from small stations can be expected to cost 50e.

In the bye law it states that the inspector will make a decision whether I should pay a penalty fare or the normal fare. However, it seems that the powers that be have lost confidence in their staff, perhaps because they are not rational and not capable of making such decisions. This would lead me to believe they promote people from within the company to their level of incompetence.

Cheers for the link

dak

I have done likewise on a few occasions from Portmarnock to clontarf and the city centre . Like the OP I buy my ticket at the destination as the ticket machines is often locked away and the booth closed. My experience are varied

1) Twice at clontarf while going to Croker - told by ticket clerk not to bother
2) Once told to just buy a return ticket on my return leg
3) Given a manual ticket at Pearse street on way out.

PS: If you don't have a ticket arriving at clontarf you have to get across the exit stiles to talk to the ticket clerk

seamus

The rules are clear.

Whether they're fair or not, is an entirely different matter. No-one here will give you any legal advice on it. They'll get banned if they do.

If you're going to challenge it, then contact a solicitor.

I do find it odd though that the trains stop at closed stations. Are they supposed to do this, or is it similar to bus drivers stopping at "unofficial" bus stops?

sikes

seamus wrote:

The rules are clear.

Whether they're fair or not, is an entirely different matter. No-one here will give you any legal advice on it. They'll get banned if they do.

If you're going to challenge it, then contact a solicitor.

I do find it odd though that the trains stop at closed stations. Are they supposed to do this, or is it similar to bus drivers stopping at "unofficial" bus stops?

cheers seamus, will talk to a lawyer for a laugh.

I am not sure about the closed stations and what is going on. But neither do CIE.

Shield

Sounds like a civil matter. The 'customer' in this case has the intention to pay, so it's not obtaining services by deception, and it's not making off without payment - again, as there is an intention to pay at some point for the service rendered.

Hope you have a few bob to throw at this if you intend to follow it up. If you do, you're just lining solicitors' pockets, as there's no guarantee you'd win a case like this. The 'reasonable person' test would probably be applied, and you may just be told to either obey their rules or don't use their service.

Mods: Feel free to edit/delete if you feel these comments are inappropriate.

Victor

psni wrote:

Sounds like a civil matter. The 'customer' in this case has the intention to pay, so it's not obtaining services by deception, and it's not making off without payment - again, as there is an intention to pay at some point for the service rendered.

Its a little bit like walking into Tesco, deciding the queue is too long and planning to pay at another Tesco later. That sort of stuff usually gets you arrested.

Planning to pay later is no defence if there is the opportunity to pay now - its the same defence some shop lifters use.

sikes, talk to Platform 11, but I don't see them saying anythign different.

Shield

Kinda, but not really. In this case it's a service and not tangible goods.

If he has previously engaged in the practice and he can prove it, he has proof that he has an intention to pay. If I were presented with this from a policing point of view, I would have to conclude that no crime has been committed or attempted - solely on the grounds that he can prove he did it before and it was acceptable at some time by the company.

Victor

psni wrote:

Kinda, but not really. In this case it's a service and not tangible goods.

So I can walk out of the barber shop before paying? Or wander into the cinema because the queue is too long?

The fact is they've been putting up new signs and ticket barriers, demonstrating the ancien régime is there no longer.

sikes

After consulting a numner of people, I have decided to pay the fine. My day is worth more than 50e to me. However, I will pay the fine will a bag of coins of which will be no greater value than 10c.

dermot_sheehan

Legal tender is only 50 coins per transaction, they would be perfectly entitled to turn down the tender offered for the fine and seek to prosecute you in court for non-payment.

mick.fr

sikes wrote:

However, I will pay the fine will a bag of coins of which will be no greater value than 10c.

You are getting French now lol...