Why are the Shinners good enough for DUP but not us?

tHE vAGGABOND

This is a genuine question. I'm not a SF supporter, and have never given them any kind of vote [Im in Dublin South, and they have never had any kind of candidate with anything to say run here tbh]

I really dont understand the rush for the main parties to distance themselves from the Shinners?

I think its fair to say that the DUP hate the shinners more than anyone, and yesterday they went into government together. They are talking up real issues, like health and education [and sacking water workers!]...

What makes me laugh is FF taking SF down at every chance. Yet Fianna Fail have 'the republican party' on their posters but then slag off SF for being a republican party :-)

While some of the shinners policies are a bid mad, I could [and have..] argued that most of the parties have mad policies here or there

But I just dont understand why every single party here, in the south, cant wait to get on the anti-SF bandwagon..

While you may not love them, and you may disagree with some/most of their platforms you dont see people rushing out and saying they won’t talk to Joe Higgins and the socialists?

flogen

FF claim it's now a policy problem, and that the two parties are too incompatible at the moment.

If that's true for FF, it's even more the case for FG, but I don't think FG even pretend that's their reason. Like the PDs their supporters aren't keen on SF at all, so they can say it's because they (used to be?) criminals

county

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

This is a genuine question. Im not a SF supporter, and have never given them any kind of vote [Im in Dublin South, and they have never had any kind of canditate with anything to say run here tbh]

I really dont undersand the rush for the main parties to distance themselves from the Shinners?

I think its fair to say that the DUP hate the shinners more than anyone, and yesterday they went into government together. They are talking up real polcies, like health and education [and sacking water workers!]...

What makes me laugh is FF taking SF down at every chance. Yet Fianna Fail have 'the republican party' on their posters but then slag off SF for being a republican party :-)

While some of the shinners policies are a bid mad, I could [and have..] argued that most of the parties have mad policies here or there

But I just dont understand why every single party here, in the south, cant wait to get on the anti-SF bandwaggon..

While you may not love them, and you may disagree with some/most of their platforms you dont see people rushing out and saying they wont talk to Joe Higgins and the socialists?

you must have been away during the 30 year conflict in northern ireland or maybe living under a rock.SF=IRA in a lot of peoples minds and most people(policital parties) dont want to be associated with shall we say reformed terrorists

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

brianthebard

Up there its like home rule was going to be, but with even less power. Down here SF will actually need policies and will need to be able to answer questions on tax. Even if all of SF's past went away you are still left with a party who are between the SWP and the Greens, that's not a good place to be if you want to get into government.

PH01

Along the same lines as daveirl.

Ireland, unlike Northern Ireland, is a sovereign country and the Irish Government is responsible for law and order, foreign and taxation policies to name a few. The Northern Ireland Assembly is more or less a glorified county council with many extra regional powers.
In many people's eyes it's a totally different thing to have Sinn Fein members as part of the Government of Ireland. I can only imagine how the Department of Justice and Foreign Affairs would react if they had a Sinn Fein minister in charge. It would be 'interesting' to say the least.

baztard

FF FG et al, see them as a threat. SF are now a totally credible party and are capable of getting a substantial vote in the election. So some other parties are trying to blacken SF name. The dáil is already crowded with parties, and the dont want another big player in their midst, further reducing their vote.

Senator

In the North the issue is about representing the 2 separate and distinct communities in a sort of cooperative super county council with very circumscribed powers, not a sovereign government. The UUP and SDLP used to do it, fill that role, now it's the DUP and SF. It doesn't really matter about the label on the majority party in each community, it just matters that they're in there together cooperating in apparently running the wee show.

The Republic is a sovereign state, however, with real powers over a wide range of areas. The electorate have a real choice of a range of policies and parties to reflect differing interests and concerns, not simply tribal ones. As a previous poster said, you'd want to reflect very seriously indeed before letting SF get their mitts on Defence or Justice, for instance, given that the PIRA has until quite recently been engaged in a war to pull down the Republic itself (when it had done with the North).

brianthebard

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

tHE vAGGABOND

I understand the points about the different role of the governments..

County - I understand your point. But if they are good enough for the Unionists to into government with, if the unionists believe they have left voilence behind and abide by the rule of law I dont understand why they are not good enough for the rest of us

Baztard - I think you may have hit a nail on the head. While the shinners may only win a couple of more seats this election, their total of 7 or 8 seats will be seats which were FF or FG seats 5 or 10 years ago I assume [and could make them the 4th largest party in the Dail - which would be mad]

Slutmonkey57b

The difference? Northern Ireland deserves whatever they get. Both parties running the assembly up there are rabid hatemongers, which fits in nicely with Norn Irish politics.

baztard

brianthebard wrote:

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

Sure, but mathmatically they could make up a two party coalition, thus reducing other more moderate parties ability to do so.

yomchi

county wrote:

you must have been away during the 30 year conflict in northern ireland or maybe living under a rock.SF=IRA in a lot of peoples minds and most people(policital parties) dont want to be associated with shall we say reformed terrorists

What a load of BS. Is Pat Rabbitte in your head a 'reformed terrorist'? What about Pronsios DeRossa or Tómas MacGiolla?
You are being very selective in your choice of parties there.

With anything up to 10 SF TD's on the cards to be returned to Leinster house it seems that 'SF=IRA' is not on alot of people's minds, or..maybe it is.

Voipjunkie

brianthebard wrote:

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

AFAIK SF have 41 candidates Limerick West and Cork NW are the only places they don't have a candidate
Or did you mean they are only in the running in 12 seats

yomchi

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

The difference? Northern Ireland deserves whatever they get. Both parties running the assembly up there are rabid hatemongers, which fits in nicely with Norn Irish politics.

Completely wide of the mark. Typical of someone who hasn't a breeze what they are talking about. Nice try though.

brianthebard

Voipjunkie wrote:

AFAIK SF have 41 candidates Limerick West and Cork NW are the only places they don't have a candidate
Or did you mean they are only in the running in 12 seats

No I thought they only had 12 candidates, apologies.

yomchi

By the way, policing and justice powers will be devolved to the northern assembly. It was part of the St Andrews talks. So a glorified county council it ain't.

Voipjunkie

Jon wrote:

What a load of BS. Is Pat Rabbitte in your head a 'reformed terrorist'? What about Pronsios DeRossa or Tómas MacGiolla?
You are being very selective in your choice of parties there.

With anything up to 10 SF TD's on the cards to be returned to Leinster house it seems that 'SF=IRA' is not on alot of people's minds, or..maybe it is.

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

yomchi

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

Took the words out of my mouth! If only people knew their facts first..

is_that_so

The northern institutions could not work or run without either SF or the DUP. In the south they are just another party.

Meanwhile we are still waiting for any coherent policies from them. To date they have not produced a manifesto. There is also the hangover, rightly or wrongly of their past, most notably highlighted by their continued pursuit of the release of the McCabe killers. That is an issue where SF and its supporters continue to fail to register the depth of feeling on that and other loosely similar issues.

In the south SF are not the only show in town, there are many other options. There is also the question of how competent their TDS are. I can't say I'd trust or be keen to put any of the current TDs in charge of anything.

Also the North has traditionally split along sectarian lines, Irish politics does not work that way. What's more, the verbal gymnastics they employed in the North particularly in relation to policing,was largely put aside, in order to pursue peace. In the Republic, we won't stand for that- see Bertie for reference.

And finally while the Assembly is a democratic institution , it really is only the start of normal democracy. Remember they don't need to come up with economic policies or many other major policies, as most of that is dictated through London.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

Theres no need to go back 50 years.Thats not a valid comparison as society is different now,a lot different.

To answer the OP's question,lets make no mistake about it-The only reason the DUP went into government with SF is because they had to.

That said you can be sure that if Paisley has bedded down with them,they are clean now.

I'd agree that they could and should go into government in the south on an agreed platform with other parties and that will happen.
Why will it happen? Because Sinn Féin will continue to transform its ideas into something more and more mainstream if they want more growth in their numbers.

is_that_so

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

This is also part of the problem, the propensity to dip back into ancient history. I wonder how many people could even guess what decade of our history you are talking about. If SF is about moving forward why the need to throw in archaic and imo completely irrelevant references?

Dyr

Twould be funny though, imagine dessie ellis or someone as minister for justice when a sizeable segment of the gardai have a job description of giving his party as much grief as they can.

yomchi

Bambi wrote:

Twould be funny though, imagine dessie ellis or someone as minister for justice when a sizeable segment of the gardai have a job description of giving his party as much grief as they can.

tbh the harrassment from Special detective unit has more or less ceased.
As for Dessie for justice minister, I don't think so!

FTA69

Sinn Féin are perfect coalition partners for Fianna Fáil, both have put the national issue to bed as far as they're concerned, and both have vague aspirations toward Irish unity. The economic policies are very slightly different considering SF have stated they won't raise taxes at all, abandoned the 12 to 17.5 percentage for Corp Tax and scrapped the 50% tax band. In short the two could coalesce quite easily if they so wish, this is the aim of the SF leadership, and FF would jump into bed with anyone if it meant retaining power.

FTA69

Jon wrote:

tbh the harrassment from Special detective unit has more or less ceased.

For Sinn Féin it has anyway.

yomchi

To answer the OP's question,lets make no mistake about it-The only reason the DUP went into government with SF is because they had to.

To put meat on the bones. The DUP had to go into govt. with them because SF's mandate was not something that couldbe ignored for much longer. Also the initiatives by the IRA set out the landscape so that DUP had no longer any valid argument to keep saying no.

yomchi

FTA69 wrote:

For Sinn Féin it has anyway.

good point. Other Republicans still endure the constant harrasment of these units

yomchi

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin are perfect coalition partners for Fianna Fáil, both have put the national issue to bed as far as they're concerned, and both have vague aspirations toward Irish unity. The economic policies are very slightly different considering SF have stated they won't raise taxes at all, abandoned the 12 to 17.5 percentage for Corp Tax and scrapped the 50% tax band. In short the two could coalesce quite easily if they so wish, this is the aim of the SF leadership, and FF would jump into bed with anyone if it meant retaining power.

A recent bug bear of mine

Victor Meldrew

To respond to the OP, the DUP are in government with SF/IRA because they have no choice. The UK government want rid of the North as it's a waste of money and resources and in doing so have conceded to all terroist groups, not just SF/IRA. With respect to SF/IRA down here, apart from the Tiochfaidh ar lá brigade, their votes come from disadvantaged areas where the Gardai cant stop thugs and the governments dont care about., so all democratic political parties in Ireland deserve to see SF/IRA emerge with what could be the balance of power after May 24th. :eek: I've no time for McDowell, (and cant wait to see him loose the merc.) but he's right about the provos.

yomchi

With respect to SF/IRA down here, apart from the Tiochfaidh ar lá brigade, their votes come from disadvantaged areas where the Gardai cant stop thugs and the governments dont care about.,

firstly what is SF/IRA? There is no such party.

Secondly what is the Tiocfaidh ar la brigade?

At the last EU election Mary Lou Macdonald polled over 60,000 votes. Hell of a lot of disadvantaged people in Dublin hey? :rolleyes: