Why are the Shinners good enough for DUP but not us?

brianthebard

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Its not really the same, you'd be hard pressed to find any other country with a health system as good as Cuba's. We shouldn't ignore lessons that Cuba can teach us just because of the bad aspects of the country.

darkman2

SF have serious issues south of the border. Firstly I think it must be accepted that their standard of TD south of the border is questionable in my view. Ferris thinks its fine to drink and drive and takes pride in his terrorist/gun runner history. Angus O'Snodaigh had issues when his wife was arrested for public disorder and told the Gaurd that arrested her - he will get whats coming to him for arresting a 'SF TD's wife' (charming). What does that say about O'Snodaigh? They are a populist party and on this basis have made decisions on policy based solely on what would benefit the working classes and ignoring the effects on Middle Ireland. They have made huge mistakes on their so-called 'economic policy' which would not look out of line in Venezuala.


It is also not a case of hypocrisy over the North. The DUP have to share power. That is not a sovereign state like here. The consequences here of putting a party in for the sake of it could not easily be undone whereas north of the border they will just be bailed out be the UK taxpayer. We dont have that safety net.

yomchi

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Hi Dave, fancy meeting you here

You know you have a good point. A good friend of mine is a Cuban exile also. He has a lot of good things to say about certain aspects of Cuba like the health service and education but there are dark sides also, no doubt. But I think here in Ireland it would be different, you can have a health service without the whole secret state mentality I think.

yomchi

Bambi wrote:

Thats true, The Middle class, that bastion of our civil liberties, must live in fear that Sinn Fein might try to introduce internment without trial, execution, no jury courts, abolish the right to silence, imprisonment on the word of a police officer etc etc

hmm hang on....

Rings a bell alright!!

yomchi

darkman2 wrote:

SF have serious issues south of the border. Firstly I think it must be accepted that their standard of TD south of the border is questionable in my view. Ferris thinks its fine to drink and drive and takes pride in his terrorist/gun runner history. Angus O'Snodaigh had issues when his wife was arrested for public disorder and told the Gaurd that arrested her - he will get whats coming to him for arresting a 'SF TD's wife' (charming). What does that say about O'Snodaigh?

Hang on, you could say the same about many many other TD's and party reps.

Off the top of my head;
Ray Burke
Liam Lawlor
Ivor Callelly
Emmet Stag
Michael Fahey
+ many more!

All of which have been caught out being up to no good. SF TD's are human beings and are not infallible.
Why you would judge one man on his wife behavious is a bit odd..to say the least. I'm sure he was very embarressed by that event.

Victor Meldrew

darkman2 wrote:

SF have serious issues south of the border. Firstly I think it must be accepted that their standard of TD south of the border is questionable in my view. Ferris thinks its fine to drink and drive and takes pride in his terrorist/gun runner history. Angus O'Snodaigh had issues when his wife was arrested for public disorder and told the Gaurd that arrested her - he will get whats coming to him for arresting a 'SF TD's wife' (charming). What does that say about O'Snodaigh? .

And that's only the start... There appears to be a regrettable tolerance of bertie's financial irregularities but there is a real fear of SF down south. Middle ireland (ie the FF , Lab and FG base) are a lot closer together than they are to SF, any party going into power with SF would be commiting hari-kari and backbenchers would go nuts. I would doubt if a FF & SF "alliance" in a minority government would even survive

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

You could ignore any precedent on the basis of society is different now

It's not a case of ignoring precedents.
It's a case of having a proper perspective.
Comparing the types of decisions that would be made and accepted in society 50 years ago to back yup some point being made about what should be right today doesnt wash.
For example,I doubt Ms D would be heading off to the UK for her abortion 50 years ago.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

It's not a case of ignoring precedents.
It's a case of having a proper perspective.
Comparing the types of decisions that would be made and accepted in society 50 years ago to back yup some point being made about what should be right today doesnt wash.
For example,I doubt Ms D would be heading off to the UK for her abortion 50 years ago.

Sorry but that is pure Nonsense you are completely missing the point that the divisions were deeper between the parties that formed the first inter party Government than the differences between the respective parties today including the bitterness of a civil war and the blueshirt vs republicans era of the 30s.
You are putting aside the difficulties that the parties involved overcame because it was 60 years ago.
I doubt Ms D would have been allowed to travel 20 years ago nevermind 50 so I guess raising the issue of FF accepting the support of SFWP despite the fact that the party still had an active armed wing and were in competition with the central bank on the note printing front won't wash either as that was
a different society.:rolleyes:

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Sorry but that is pure Nonsense you are completely missing the point that the divisions were deeper between the parties that formed the first inter party Government than the differences between the respective parties today including the bitterness of a civil war and the blueshirt vs republicans era of the 30s.
You are putting aside the difficulties that the parties involved overcame because it was 60 years ago.

I am saying that yes and it's far from nonsense.

I doubt Ms D would have been allowed to travel 20 years ago nevermind 50 so I guess raising the issue of FF accepting the support of SFWP despite the fact that the party still had an active armed wing and were in competition with the central bank on the note printing front won't wash either as that was
a different society.:rolleyes:

Well you couldnt get a divorce referendum passed in this country back then so I rest my case as regards the different,the completely different mindsets that existed in this country even 20 years ago.
I won't even mention movies-life of Brian had no cert here ffs,and all you could watch on RTÉ on good friday was a film about Padré pio.

As for FF accepting the support of SF the workers party,well you are talking about Haughey.In hindsight we now know what coloured his decisions as to how to stay in power and it was more to do with what he got in power than any principle.
You can't be comparing that era to 2007 either now that we have standards in public office commissions etc.
The differences were even starker when you go back 50 years.

FTA69

darkman2 wrote:

Ferris thinks its fine to drink and drive and takes pride in his terrorist/gun runner history.

Ferris recieved his mandate from Kerry North and his test actually showed he was within the legal limit you'll be pleased to know.

Angus O'Snodaigh had issues when his wife was arrested for public disorder and told the Gaurd that arrested her - he will get whats coming to him for arresting a 'SF TD's wife' (charming).

After Special Branch detectives called her a "bitch" and began gloating at the wife of deceased IRA Volunteer Doco Doherty. But I suppose the Sunday Independent didn't outline that did they? Don't believe everything you read.

They are a populist party and on this basis have made decisions on policy based solely on what would benefit the working classes and ignoring the effects on Middle Ireland

Not necessarily, if anything they are seeking to alter the radical nature of the party and seek to ingratiate into what you would call the middle-classes.

They have made huge mistakes on their so-called 'economic policy' which would not look out of line in Venezuala.

The Green Party have a more radical economic policy than Sinn Féin but yet they're very popular amongst "Middle Ireland".

RalphCifaretto

I think the sindo has replaced the bible as the word of god in quite a few places in this country.

yomchi

good to hear Ferris got the all clear. He's a man of integrity.

Gaspode

Because the DUP are just as bad a shower of terrorists, bigots and criminals as the shinners thats why - there is no hypocirsy in it, they just deserve each other.

I will never ever give a vote to SF/IRA as long as I live. Shower of thugs and terrorists dressed in sheeps clothing is all they are.

And heaven forbid if those 6 counties up there are ever made part of this country, I will not waste any votes on the the other terrorist parties either. so I abhor both sides of the terrorist war in the north equally, and dont see why any of them need to be standing in elections down here if they have their own government up there.:mad:

FTA69

Because the DUP are just as bad a shower of terrorists, bigots and criminals

But yet oddly enough it is you who comes across as a bigot in your post.

And heaven forbid if those 6 counties up there are ever made part of this country, I will not waste any votes on the the other terrorist parties either

They are part of this country and always have been. I trust then you won't be voting for Fine Gael due to their alliance with such former "thugs and terrorists" as Pronsios De Rossa and Pat Rabbitte.

and dont see why any of them need to be standing in elections down here if they have their own government up there.

Eh... Because half the members of Sinn Féin are from the south and they are an all-Ireland party? To be honest I can't see what you;re whinging about.

marco murphy

he will get whats coming to him for arresting a 'SF TD's wife' (charming).

And you heard him saying this?

Victor Meldrew

FTA69 wrote:

B

They are part of this country and always have been. I trust then you won't be voting for Fine Gael due to their alliance with such former "thugs and terrorists" as Pronsios De Rossa and Pat Rabbitte.
.

With respect to De Rossa and Rabbitte they have walked the long road out of militancy to the mainstream. We are yet to see SF complete this journey. One could question if it has really begun (Robert McCarthy's murder anyone?)

As for "they are part of this country", well now, do they really recognise the state and it's instituitons like the Gardai and Army. Have they unequivocally said that?

LuckyLloyd

Victor Meldrew wrote:

With respect to De Rossa and Rabbitte they have walked the long road out of militancy to the mainstream. We are yet to see SF complete this journey. One could question if it has really begun (Robert McCarthy's murder anyone?)

As for "they are part of this country", well now, do they really recognise the state and it's instituitons like the Gardai and Army. Have they unequivocally said that?

The fact that this view of the situation would be accepted as 100% on the money by many people in this State is mildly distressing.

The political party Sinn Feinn had absolutely nothing to do with that murder. Substantial progress has been made up in terms of removing the IRA from the equation. The process is much closer to the end than the beginning.

Yes. They unequivocally accept the primacy of the defense forces in the south over the 26 counties.

Nuttzz

The 'government' in NI is only a state-let within a larger country, the history and lack of functioning democracy in NI for the last 40 years means that NI cant be compared with a proper democracy like the ROI, the NI government has little control over anything but local affairs, SF are along way from having the experience of running departments like justice, defence, foreign affairs. FF were a party of gun runners just like the SF and in the end democracy worked out for them, if SF bide their time mircales might happen for them. Adams has taken the long therm view and will probably see SF increase in influence when the next generation comes to lead that party

Borzoi

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

But I just dont understand why every single party here, in the south, cant wait to get on the anti-SF bandwagon..
?

A huge factor here is that DUP and SF do not compete for votes, there's very little cross over.

FF and Labour are directly competing with SF for the same electorate, hence they will run the Shinners down

FG, and PD, being a bit more to the right, arn't competing so much for the vote, but have core values that are further form the Shinners, so again they will run them down.

In short: self interest is the difference

RalphCifaretto

This has drifted completely off-topic. There is absolutely no doubt that the attitude of the southern parties to SF is strategic and has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

To those who still have moral objections to SF's possible participation in government in the south:The fact that Stormont is a devolved parliament is completely irrelevent. Anyone who feels that SF are fit for power north of the border but not in the south is a complete and utter hypocrite, simple as that.

mackerski

RalphCifaretto wrote:

This has drifted completely off-topic. There is absolutely no doubt that the attitude of the southern parties to SF is strategic and has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

It was never going to be a question of morality - simply of a mix between democracy and party self-interest. Morality and SF aren't words I often use in the same sentence, but there you go.

RalphCifaretto wrote:

To those who still have moral objections to SF's possible participation in government in the south:The fact that Stormont is a devolved parliament is completely irrelevent. Anyone who feels that SF are fit for power north of the border but not in the south is a complete and utter hypocrite, simple as that.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider SF fit for government in NI or here. But democracy works in mysterious ways. SF shouldn't complain, since they've done undeservedly well out of it. One out of two aint bad, considering where they're coming from.

Nevyn

The difference is in the types and quality of people that they are fielding up north comapred to down here.

Gaspode

FTA69 wrote:

But yet oddly enough it is you who comes across as a bigot in your post.

I've never claimed to be anything else. We're all bigots to some degree (yes, even you!), but most people dont reach for a gun or a bomb to express their bigotry.

FTA69 wrote:

They are part of this country and always have been.

No, they've never been part of the Republic of Ireland which has been in existence a relatively short amount of time. They've been part of Britain though for a helluva long time now, and long may that continue. Before they were British thre was no 'Ireland' to speak of, just a ragbag collection of kingdoms and alliances.

Grudaire

deswalsh wrote:

No, they've never been part of the Republic of Ireland which has been in existence a relatively short amount of time. They've been part of Britain though for a helluva long time now, and long may that continue. Before they were British thre was no 'Ireland' to speak of, just a ragbag collection of kingdoms and alliances.

Huh? What?? WHAT??? That doesn't make any sense, While all of that is technically true, it's a very selective version of the truth.

While there was no united Ireland there was a united sense for many years- for example the use of the Irish language

While they have been part of britain, the whole point is that they don't want to be. Lets not forget that we here also were very recently part ok the UK, closer then now commonwealth nations such as Canada, we were in the same parliment. Not that we were particularly happy to be.

Finally they have every right to stand here, The republican movement here was United, it involved nationalists from every part of the country in a united effort, since we only got 26/32 the lost six should be left?

brianthebard

National identity doesn't appear in Ireland until the 1820s or later...this has been done to death on boards already.

yomchi

DesW, no disrespect but you really sound like you have no idea about national politics regarding the north and the southern state. I suggest you should go read some history/current affairs and come back with some informed answers rather than making yourself look barmy.

Opening mouth and removing all doubt etc etc..

LostinBlanch

In reply to the original question, has anyone asked Esther Uzell?

Gobán Saor

LostinBlanch wrote:

In reply to the original question, has anyone asked Esther Uzell?

As as she's supported by the McCartney sisters, perhaps they can all get to grips with the conundrum of why having Sinn Fein in government north of the border is a cause for celebration breaking out on Tuesday but the prospect of having Sinn Fein in power south of the border is a cause for alarm

Victor Meldrew

Jon wrote:

DesW, no disrespect but you really sound like you have no idea about national politics regarding the north and the southern state. I suggest you should go read some history/current affairs and come back with some informed answers rather than making yourself look barmy.

Opening mouth and removing all doubt etc etc..

Bit harsh there, Des's comment that we are all bigoted to a degree but don't consider violence to be an answer to our grievances is relevent to the thread.

With respect to NI and it's future, one of the fundamental principles for NI is self determination, on that basis, the majority of NI's inhabitants do not want a united Ireland at present.

What we want down south is for all parties up notrh to take responsibility for their future and we'll watch and support their collective rehablitation into a peaceful , prosperous, democratic society with an economy that is not dependent on "that awful" UK government's chequebook.

As I have previously said, SF may be the only party who's support base actually want a united ireland NOW, irrespective of the security and income tax implications (and what other parties nauseatingly say in public , wrap the green flag round me boys ...)

RalphCifaretto

Bit harsh there, Des's comment that we are all bigoted to a degree but don't consider violence to be an answer to our grievances is relevent to the thread.

And what about the wild inaccuracy of the rest of his post?:rolleyes: