Why are the Shinners good enough for DUP but not us?

Zambia

deswalsh wrote:

Because the DUP are just as bad a shower of terrorists, bigots and criminals as the shinners thats why - there is no hypocirsy in it, they just deserve each other.

I will never ever give a vote to SF/IRA as long as I live. Shower of thugs and terrorists dressed in sheeps clothing is all they are.

And heaven forbid if those 6 counties up there are ever made part of this country, I will not waste any votes on the the other terrorist parties either. so I abhor both sides of the terrorist war in the north equally, and dont see why any of them need to be standing in elections down here if they have their own government up there.:mad:

Im quite happy with the current state of affairs up here , people are represented and we have some form of self determination while living under the safty net of the UK. However should the majority vote go in favour of SF and a UI well so be it.

Your above post however has manged to insult every man woman and child up North.

Your comments on the DUP are just not true there has never been any evidence of this. SF are just SF calling them the other merely gives hope to the pack of eejits still intent on killing people for an ideal witch is achievable by other means.

Oh and being a bigot is nothing to be proud of. as the same intolerance that it implys leads to the same violence you pertain to abhore.

is_that_so

RalphCifaretto wrote:

This has drifted completely off-topic. There is absolutely no doubt that the attitude of the southern parties to SF is strategic and has absolutely nothing to do with morality.

To those who still have moral objections to SF's possible participation in government in the south:The fact that Stormont is a devolved parliament is completely irrelevent. Anyone who feels that SF are fit for power north of the border but not in the south is a complete and utter hypocrite, simple as that.

Politics is never simple and lecturing people on their choices is hardly a way to convince anyone.
I think you are also mistaking the relief, pride or whatever it might called at the new Assembly, as genuine support for SF. As posted earlier the way the Assembly has panned out had to happen as it did with DUP/SF.

As you are aware SF have continued to make representation for the killers of Jerry McCabe. That on its own is enough for some people to take a moral position on them. Until relatively recently they danced around the policing issue, doing semantic cartwheels.
It is right to question this. It is also moral to do so. It is also right and proper that we respect how the people in the North chose to exercise their choices.

Issues like these go to the core of the problem of SF outside their own constituency, credibility.

yomchi

Until relatively recently they danced around the policing issue, doing semantic cartwheels.

Not true. SF's position on policing has always been very solid. No movement until complete transformation, the implentation of Patton and the transfer of policing and justice from London to an Irish assembly. On the contrary it has been the SDLP who have been performing cartwheels, as they jumped on board policing before SF through dialogue got the what they were seeking.

is_that_so

Jon wrote:

Not true. SF's position on policing has always been very solid. No movement until complete transformation, the implentation of Patton and the transfer of policing and justice from London to an Irish assembly. On the contrary it has been the SDLP who have been performing cartwheels, as they jumped on board policing before SF through dialogue got the what they were seeking.

I think you have misunderstand what I was talking about - by semantic cartwheels I am referring to the peculiar ability to not say "don't go to the police" - an issue that does go to the core of their credibility. Whether that is a solid position or not it is a very odd one for a party seeking to be part of government in the Dail.

yomchi

is_that_so wrote:

I think you have misunderstand what I was talking about - by semantic cartwheels I am referring to the peculiar ability to not say "don't go to the police" - an issue that does go to the core of their credibility. Whether that is a solid position or not it is a very odd one for a party seeking to be part of government in the Dail.

Taken from Gerry Adams statement;

"Let me be very clear. If any citizen is the target of crime, whether it be death riders, drug pushers or rape, or attacks on our elderly, if there are crimes against the people, against citizens, Sinn Fein will be urging and encouraging victims and citizens to co-operate with the police. There is no equivocation or qualification on this.

There are justifiable concerns about political dimensions of policing. Collusion for example needs to be tackled but at all of the meetings I did no one raised any question about the need for civic policing. The PSNI need to win the confidence of citizens. They do that by being professional, non partisan and genuinely civic. That is a public service for citizens

What is odd about that? I think you wil find you are mistaken again.

csk

deswalsh wrote:

No, they've never been part of the Republic of Ireland which has been in existence a relatively short amount of time. They've been part of Britain though for a helluva long time now, and long may that continue. Before they were British thre was no 'Ireland' to speak of, just a ragbag collection of kingdoms and alliances.

The Republic of Ireland as we know it has only been in existence since 1949...to state that the north has never been apart of this entity, while tecnically true, misses the point somewhat spectacturally!

Ireland was apart of Britain since 1800, that didn't negate our right to our own State then, it doesn't negate our right to our own State now. It's as simple as that.

The "ragbag tribal" thing is just a cliche and does not in anyway do justice to the complexities of pre-norman Ireland, or for that matter post-norman Ireland.

csk

brianthebard wrote:

National identity doesn't appear in Ireland until the 1820s or later...this has been done to death on boards already.

There was a National Identity in Ireland before 1820.

Lads stay on topic please.

is_that_so

Jon wrote:

Taken from Gerry Adams statement;

"Let me be very clear. If any citizen is the target of crime, whether it be death riders, drug pushers or rape, or attacks on our elderly, if there are crimes against the people, against citizens, Sinn Fein will be urging and encouraging victims and citizens to co-operate with the police. There is no equivocation or qualification on this.

There are justifiable concerns about political dimensions of policing. Collusion for example needs to be tackled but at all of the meetings I did no one raised any question about the need for civic policing. The PSNI need to win the confidence of citizens. They do that by being professional, non partisan and genuinely civic. That is a public service for citizens

What is odd about that? I think you wil find you are mistaken again.

If we are talking about Gerry Adams yes I stand corrected, however Michelle Gildernew and Connor Murphy are a different story. Anyway the emphasis of my post is the issue of being a credible party for government.

If nothing else my comments highlight a difficulty of perception that SF have yet to overcome.

csk

is_that_so wrote:

If we are talking about Gerry Adams yes I stand corrected, however Michael Gildernew and Connor Murphy are a different story. Anyway the emphasis of my post is the issue of being a credible party for government.

If nothing else my comments highlight a difficulty of perception that SF have yet to overcome.

It's kind of hard, in fairness, to overcome that difficulty of perception if people are going to keep posting misinformation.

luckat

I'm always baffled by Irish people using the term 'Shinners', an abusive epithet invented by the Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries during the War of Independence.

Victor Meldrew

Jon wrote:

Taken from Gerry Adams statement;

"Let me be very clear. If any citizen is the target of crime, whether it be death riders, drug pushers or rape, or attacks on our elderly, if there are crimes against the people, against citizens, Sinn Fein will be urging and encouraging victims and citizens to co-operate with the police. There is no equivocation or qualification on this.


What is odd about that? I think you wil find you are mistaken again.

Ah now Jon, you have to admit that had Gerry said "Sinn Fein will be urging and encouraging victims and citizens to contact the police" it would have been a lot more unequivocal.

That said, its a start, and with more words and deeds like this then SF will see a thawing of attitudes down south.

Bottom line is, SF need to act like a party of government in the North as they are now "in government" there. Watching them defend and respect the institutions of the state that would traditionally stamp on the IRA will be interesting (Revenue, Police, army, etc...)

Don't think I'm a rabid west-brit here, At least SF have led their people as opposed to the DUP who were (are?) mob led.

is_that_so

csk wrote:

It's kind of hard, in fairness, to overcome that difficulty of perception if people are going to keep posting misinformation.

What will help that perception is SF convincing people that they are worth voting for. Excluding the obvious they have yet to produce a manifesto and have already done a U turn on corporation tax. Hardly the stuff of government.

yomchi

luckat wrote:

I'm always baffled by Irish people using the term 'Shinners', an abusive epithet invented by the Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries during the War of Independence.

Its become a quite an acceptable label these days. Shinners themselves use the term

If we are talking about Gerry Adams yes I stand corrected

It's party policy

Ah now Jon, you have to admit that had Gerry said "Sinn Fein will be urging and encouraging victims and citizens to contact the police" it would have been a lot more unequivocal

What was that about semantic cartwheels??

Victor Meldrew

luckat wrote:

I'm always baffled by Irish people using the term 'Shinners', an abusive epithet invented by the Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries during the War of Independence.

Ah now,

Shinners = SF
Blueshirts = FG
Soilders of destiny = FF,

I think SF are glad if they get away with being refered to as "Shinners" down south. :eek:

yomchi

FF = Soldiers of corruption

Clum

FTA69 wrote:

I trust then you won't be voting for Fine Gael due to their alliance with such former "thugs and terrorists" as Pronsios De Rossa and Pat Rabbitte.

Don't wanna come across like a novice here but I've no clue of Pat Rabbitte's background. Anybody willing to enlighten me about what this refers to?

He and Liz McManus and a few others are former members of sf the workers party which morphed into democratic left and then into the labour party.
Google it for more information.

yomchi

Tristrame wrote:

He and Liz McManus and a few others are former members of sf the workers party which morphed into democratic left and then into the labour party.
Google it for more information.

sf workers party came out of the split in the Republican Movement in 69, they were aligned with the 'official IRA'. Over time they dropped the term 'SF' from the workers party and called it simply the workers party. A batch of pinko lefties decided to pull away from the WP's due to their alliances with the old soviet bloc and formed Democratic Left - Gilmore, Rabbitte, MacManus, De Rossa et al. De Rossa has a conviction for political aggitation and was jailed in the Curragh. The workers party still exist with MacGiolla and Garland and the Korean 'American' Dollar
So effectively Rabbitte has connections back to an armed group, which as a matter of fact never went out of commision - officially:D

Borzoi

Victor Meldrew wrote:

Shinners = SF
Blueshirts = FG
Soilders of destiny = FF,

FF = Soldiers of Fortune

Money Shot

To answer the Opening Posters question. My only dealings with Sinn Fein are at the last local elections in Blanchardstown, their candidate Martin Christie resigned shortly after being elected because of the theft of a large amount of money. Maybe somebody will have some more details.

In Finglas, I know the candidate is Dessie Ellis, who also got elected in those local elections. He is most famous for being a bomb maker for the IRA and the resulting extradiction wrangle when he was caught.

Martin Ferris drunk driving, O'Snodaigh threats against the Gardai. This is without looking into, so I'm sure there is a lot more to be uncovered. Basically, before voting Sinn Fein, I would think long and hard about what you are voting for, and who you might be voting for. Some people don't deserve power.

yomchi

Money Shot wrote:

To answer the Opening Posters question. My only dealings with Sinn Fein are at the last local elections in Blanchardstown, their candidate Martin Christie resigned shortly after being elected because of the theft of a large amount of money. Maybe somebody will have some more details.

In Finglas, I know the candidate is Dessie Ellis, who also got elected in those local elections. He is most famous for being a bomb maker for the IRA and the resulting extradiction wrangle when he was caught.

Martin Ferris drunk driving, O'Snodaigh threats against the Gardai. This is without looking into, so I'm sure there is a lot more to be uncovered. Basically, before voting Sinn Fein, I would think long and hard about what you are voting for, and who you might be voting for. Some people don't deserve power.

Martin Christie was involved in the misappropriation of funds form his work place. A matter he DID NOT bring to the parties attention - I actually interviewed him before he was selected as candidate.
When it emerged he was involved in dodgy dealings, he was BOOTED OUT by Sinn Fein and no longer heard of.

Again more selective fantasism.

Martin Ferris was CLEARED of drink driving

What threats did Aonghas O'Snodaigh make?

Dessie Ellis's past is an honourable one, he will be elected to Leinster this time round. Obviously his past is something the people of Finglas understan was politically motivated.

This is without looking into, so I'm sure there is a lot more to be uncovered.

Is that FF and the Mahon tribunal you're referring too?

Money Shot

Doesn't say a lot for the party that they would have someone theiving from their employer in their ranks. What else could they do to save face but get rid of him. I'm not being selective or fantasist - it happened, a few days after he got elected in the local elections, he resigned as he admitted thieving 10 grand I think it was.

I though Ferris admitted to having drunk two pints and a glass of red wine before setting about on his journed - that is drink driving - no ?

Someone might know more, but O'Snodaigh apparently threatened a Garda that was trying to arrest his wife for breach of the peace or some such. Any know anything further about this ?

I take it that you are a supporter of Sinn Fein ? I'm not, and not just for the reasons mentioned above. There policies change with the wind and seem to sway with whatever will get them votes and 'power'.
I'm not alligned to any other party, but I would urge people to think long and hard before putting that X next to a Sinn Fein candidate. That's just my personal opinion, based on my personal experiences and understanding of what I see and hear. I feel a lecture coming on, and you're going to educate me in the 'wonders' of your party now ??

brianthebard

LOLZ, that X won't do much good for SF....

Zambia

Money Shot wrote:

Doesn't say a lot for the party that they would have someone theiving from their employer in their ranks. What else could they do to save face but get rid of him.

Im sure if it was FF he would be elected as the head of the party.

Victor Meldrew

Money Shot wrote:

That's just my personal opinion, based on my personal experiences and understanding of what I see and hear. I feel a lecture coming on, and you're going to educate me in the 'wonders' of your party now ??

You are right, there are issues there and the perception that Dessie Ellis's past is honourable is utterly subjective at best, if you endorsed the armed, violent campaign of the IRA (look they have surfaced again in this thread:eek: ) then you may feel that Dessi was a honourable soilder. Most southerners won't agree because their perspective is utterly different to that of SF supporters.

I can remember being in the US in 95 and being able to be proud that my countrymen had stopped killing each other and that i was not being asked did I live in a warzone. i also like the fact that I don't get quizzed when i go through airport security any more. Most southerners hate what "the republican movement" did using our flag as a backdrop and allegedly in our name

guinnessdrinker

I still think it is very hypocritacal of Fianna Fail, especially when you see Bertie Ahearn full of smiles and laughing away with Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisly as he was earlyer in the week. Just an opinion.

yomchi

brianthebard wrote:

LOLZ, that X won't do much good for SF....

LOL, who does't know the difference between a referendum and an election.

Keep putting them X's in baby yeh!!

it happened, a few days after he got elected in the local elections, he resigned as he admitted thieving 10 grand I think it was.

He was expelled, booted out, persona non grata - you understand the difference?

I though Ferris admitted to having drunk two pints and a glass of red wine before setting about on his journed - that is drink driving

He was under the legal limit, ie the law stated he was under the legal limit therefore eligible to drive. What bit of that do you not understand?

Someone might know more, but O'Snodaigh apparently threatened a Garda that was trying to arrest his wife for breach of the peace or some such. Any know anything further about this ?

What a way to start that bizarre allegation - someone might know more - jeez.
Infact what you stated did nothappen - FACT. There you go, I know more.

That's just my personal opinion, based on my personal experiences

Your own personal experience of what exactly? Because you've been way off the mark up to now.

i also like the fact that I don't get quizzed when i go through airport security any more.

I'm glad you benefitted personally from the peace process, I'm sure your happy experience can be replicated with hundreds of families up north :rolleyes:

Money Shot

Jon wrote:

LOL, who does't know the difference between a referendum and an election.

Keep putting them X's in baby yeh!!

Oh dear - I suppose next time, I'll hire a spin doctor or get my 'legal person' to go through my 'post' before I annoy you with my idiotic viewpoints in future. I usually read the ballot paper before I put a X, tick, mark or whatever I'm supposed to do. Didn't realise someone not knowing the correct mark to use on an election paper as opposed to a referendum paper would cause so much hilarity. I get it now though - I'm so embarressed (hope i spelled that correctly, or more hilarity could insue at my expense) ... I'm beginning to get an insight into the mind of a Sinn Fein person. You react very badly to everyone who dissagrees with you in any way, or mentions your party in less than glowing terms.

So, I don't agree with what Sinn Fein stand for, their past, there persisting links with criminals, terrorists etc., so therefore, I am wrong. Understood - goodbye...

Victor Meldrew

Jon wrote:

I'm glad you benefitted personally from the peace process, I'm sure your happy experience can be replicated with hundreds of families up north :rolleyes:

Fair point, it's typically the most disadvantaged people who suffer at the hands of terrorists Kneecappings, "the dissappeared" (What a quaint description for killed and buried), Random "any taig will do" killings by loyalists . Not so random "drive this bomb towards the RUC station or we shoot your family" by republicans. the yearly exodus that came with the marching season.. protection money and smuggling on both sides, I could go on..

But my point, (which was deliberatly a bit crass) is that Ireland is now being seen as civilised because the activities listed above are hopefully a thing of the past.