Valdanos rant at Rafa/Jose

PiE

I love how certain supporters are so vocal about how football should be played, as if their own club is suddenly the only true bastion of the beautiful game.

Utd won the league, fair play. Chelsea were rocked by injuries to all their star players right through the season, had to accomodate players the manager didn't want, had to endure endless media-circus bullsh*t speculation every day and STILL almost managed to overhaul Utd at the top. Take one of those 3 factors outta the equation and Chelsea would have won the league with their "ugly" football.

PHB

Maybe, maybe not.
I think that whole argument is bull**** to be honest. Every team has injuries, sure United had their first choice back four out for a good few games, they had the strength in depth to get through it though, which is what it's all about.
btw, we were ahead of Chelsea before they got any injuries.

Necronomicon

PiE wrote:

Chelsea were rocked by injuries to all their star players right through the season

And United had no injuries? Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic and Patrice Evra all getting injured at the same time springs to mind. I don't remember Chelsea having their entire back four getting injured at the same time. Although, they didn't have a consistent back four because they have no decent right back. Maybe that had more to do with it?

had to accomodate players the manager didn't want

Lol, managers up and down the country are crying rivers for Jose, having two world-class players thrown at him.

shatners basoon

PHB wrote:

Maybe, maybe not.
I think that whole argument is bull**** to be honest.

I think this thread ,is bull**** to be honest, it'd be more productive for us all to be sitting in a circle with the pool supporters on one side and United supporters on the other slapping each other with big fookin fish!

Both liverpool and Chelski can play good football, they've shown in many times throughout the season (reactor summed up pool's inadequacies and chelski have been lacking in width all season due to injuries etc.), however, they're style certainly doesn't involve as much flair as United's or Arsenal's, it involves more effort, heart and guts (the lack of which is the main reason United aren't in the CL final). Despite what some of you may think fans actually appreciate this, opposing fans mightn't but a team's fans surely do.

That being said i can also see all the things which are wrong with liverpool's style of play and the lack of finished product (created more chances than any other team in the PL). This needs to be rectified.

Eirebear

Chucky the tree wrote:

Fergie was a world class player wasnt he?

:rolleyes:

Fergie was actually a decent player in his day mate, hard as nails he was...but then again he didnt do it for an English Team and then Move to Celtic when he was 6 months off retiring so why would anyone in this country care eh?

shatners basoon

He wasn't a world class player though and thats what his point was. Was O'Neill a good player actually?

Eirebear

shatners basoon wrote:

He wasn't a world class player though and thats what his point was. Was O'Neill a good player actually?

again O'Neil was a fairly decent player, not world class true, but a journeyman.

i dont think benitez or morinho were even up to the same level as fergie or O'Neil as a player, thats where valdanos' comments come into it.

Chucky the tree

KdjaCL wrote:

So name one manager who wasnt a pro that manages a team that plays attractive football. Valdano is spot on tbh and the best way to summarise it is if Zidane played for either club what position would he play ? He has only one position but well its fairly obvious why it wouldnt work at certain clubs.


EDIT/// wtf do you think Rafa and jose play attractive football with pool and che?



kdjac

I already asked you to quote the post where i said they both play attractive football, but you didnt. Wanna try and find it?


No? Thought not.

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

If United had lost the premiership this year, while it would have really sucked, I could at least say I enjoyed nearly every match.

So why were alot of united fans asking for fergie to get the sack a few seasons ago when they were winning jack ****?

shatners basoon

Because fans are fickle and stupid and the sooner we all realise that, a better place our world will be!

Mitch Connor

Chucky the tree wrote:

So why were alot of united fans asking for fergie to get the sack a few seasons ago when they were winning jack ****?

Well, personally i did think it was time for fergie to step down, but a major component of that was the fact we were playing CRAP football.

Last season, the season before that, and the one previous saw generally crap football from United, trying to play overly patient, overly caustious euro style.

This season has been different, we have played with an attacking style and passion, it has been a throwback to the 90's style that brought us so much success domestically, and eventually in europe. For that reason, i wouldn't have minded not winning the league, and i wouldn't have been calling for fergie to step down in the summer. As long as United try to play football the right way I am generally happy.

shatners basoon

I don't think thats particularily true. United still tried to play good attacking football but were nowhere near as consistent at is as you were this year. This year has been a very good year for you, the style has been the same but its gone up a notch (at least at the best of times). there's a great difference between intent and success.

PHB

So why were alot of united fans asking for fergie to get the sack a few seasons ago when they were winning jack ****?

Cause they were stupid, but also cause Fergie persisted with a 4-5-1, which is about defense. This happened after our defeat to Real Madrid in the CL, and Fergie believed the only way to win the CL was to adopt that approach, and he became obsessed with it.

shatners basoon

PHB wrote:

, but also cause Fergie persisted with a 4-5-1, which is about defense.

no its not, you're best display of the season was with a 451 and it wasn't very defensive. 4-5-1 can be an attacking formation, any bloody formation can be an attacking formation. United's strength is both attacking and defending in numbers. you can do that with any formation.
It was lack of success that turned the fans against fergie, nothing else.

Pepe LeFrits

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You wou;dn't though PHB, look at the Arsenal, play great football, have won nothing, you don't see too many jubilant Arsenal fans on here telling everybody how great it is to watch a team that plays attractive football week in and week out.

Only ultimate success breeds jubilance but without that it doesn't mean it hasn't been great to watch this season.

One of the main consolations that I have from Arsenal not winning anything this season (which, regardless of what style of football a team adapts, happens), is that Arsenal at times this season have been sumptuous and thrilling to watch. I've thoroughly enjoyed watch Arsenal play (most of the time, there have been a few dreadful performances) and have some great memories. On average, money spent on an Arsenal ticket this season has been money well spent, regardless of the results.

PHB

no its not, you're best display of the season was with a 451 and it wasn't very defensive. 4-5-1 can be an attacking formation, any bloody formation can be an attacking formation. United's strength is both attacking and defending in numbers. you can do that with any formation.

While true, that's not how we used to play a 4-5-1.
When playing against Roma, we played a 4-2-3-1, giving an almost free role to the two wingers. If you have to classify it as either a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1, you'd call it a 4-3-3.

Before hand, Fergie persisted with the 4-5-1 every game, even in the league. It's the reason why lots of United fans hate Quierez, because they blame him for the 4-5-1.

It was lack of success that turned the fans against fergie, nothing else.

While that was part of it, a lot of it was also about the 4-5-1. If United had lost this year, people wouldn't have been annoyed.

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote:

While true, that's not how we used to play a 4-5-1.
When playing against Roma, we played a 4-2-3-1, giving an almost free role to the two wingers. If you have to classify it as either a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1, you'd call it a 4-3-3.

Before hand, Fergie persisted with the 4-5-1 every game, even in the league. It's the reason why lots of United fans hate Quierez, because they blame him for the 4-5-1.



While that was part of it, a lot of it was also about the 4-5-1. If United had lost this year, people wouldn't have been annoyed.

uh, didn't Chelsea win the league twice playing 4-5-1? it was because Fergy didn't win anything with 4-5-1 that people wanted him to leave, i.e. purely the success factor.

KdjaCL

Chucky the tree wrote:

I already asked you to quote the post where i said they both play attractive football, but you didnt. Wanna try and find it?


No? Thought not.

Umm who said you Someone posted the name of the song they used Pass and move tis the pool groove.

Draupnir and Reactor made 2 excellent posts about Valdanos rant, both are spot on. But the fact remains Valdano tried to get both as manager of Real and possibly will try again.


kdjac

kinaldo

Manc fans should get off their high horse when they slag off what they perceive to be dull football. Some of the dull games involving "United" this season :

Spurs H 1-0
Arsenal H 0-1 (although Arsenal were very good)
Reading A 1-1
Benfica A 0-1
Copenhagen A 1-0
Southend A 1-0
Blackburn A 0-1
Celtic A 1-0
Chelsea H 1-1
West Ham A 1-0
Lille A 1-0
Fulham A 1-2
Liverpool A 0-1
Lille H 1-0
Man City A 0-1
Chelsea A 0-0

I'm sure I missed a few but there's plenty there for the footballing purist Mancs to chew on, and of course they all remember those games well. Their previous two seasons would probably both dwarf that list.

Liverpool may not be the most exciting team but at least under Benitez they've given us two of the greatest finals ever. Even Houllier's team produced a memorable 5-4 Uefa Cup final.

For true excitement from the beautiful game I will always prefer Spanish football. Look at what Getafe did to Barca last night - 5-2 down from the 1st leg and then they crush a full strength Barca 4-0! Valdano will have taken great delight in watching that.

iregk

leninbenjamin wrote:

uh, didn't Chelsea win the league twice playing 4-5-1? it was because Fergy didn't win anything with 4-5-1 that people wanted him to leave, i.e. purely the success factor.

Chelsea actually played an alternating 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation. It was more 4-3-3 than anything else.

Mitch Connor

When United won the league in 2003, we were playing a 451/433 formation

Ruud up top, with Giggs, Scholes and Ole (who nabbed the position off Becks for the last part of the season) behind him.

PHB

Those were games with low scores, not necessarily boring.

Also, the CL games when we thought we had already qualified were basically a team of reserves much like the Chelsea game. Same with the Southend game.

Spurs H 1-0 - Was also a pretty good game.
Arsenal H 0-1 (although Arsenal were very good) - It was an end to end game, in which nobody could finish until the end. It was great football though.
Reading A 1-1 - As I remmeber, United had like 15 shots in that game, and it was really quite good.
Blackburn A 0-1 - As I remember, United really went at Blackburn in the first half, but the dodgy conditions make it tough, then we finally got the breakthrough in the 2nd half.
Chelsea H 1-1 - Was a ****ing fantastic game, as United attacked like hell in the first half, then Chelsea attacked like hell in the 2nd half.
Fulham A 1-2 - Was also a great game, especially the championship winning goal in the last minute through blistering pace and skill.

Games are not determined by how many goals you score, or don't score. It's determined by how you play.
True skill is not just good attacking with bad defending, it's both.

United managed to score 83 goals this season, while concedding 26 goals. Compare this to Chelsea scoring 63 goals while concedding 23, and Liverpool scoring 55 while concedding 25.

Spurs are exciting as hell to watch, hell, they are sixth placed with a goal difference of plus 2. They concede so much, yet attack enough to make it work somewhat. It cause they are committed to attack, which is half the reason their defense is so poor.
Contrast this to Bolton, who play defensive football, and just manage enough goals to get enough points.
United and Arsenal are good versions of Spurs, with better defenders (and attackers)
Liverpool and Chelsea are good versions of Bolton, with better attackers (and defenders)

Dull football isn't about the amount of goals scored, it's about how teams play.

herbieflowers

But as well as that there's been about 20 games where Man U have scored 3 or more goals...but s every football fan knows, it's impossible to play immaculately every single game of the season, to win a title you need to win those that you didn't deserve to win, those that you grinded out withoutactually playing well and those where you demoish the other side (Fulham, Bolton home and away, Blackburn at home etc)

leninbenjamin

iregk wrote:

Chelsea actually played an alternating 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation. It was more 4-3-3 than anything else.

same difference really. its 4 - 3 - 3 when a teams attacking, 4 - 5 - 1 when they are defending. United's tried to be similar in any event.