Just started watching wrestling again

Fozzy · 14-05-2007 6:28pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I don't think I've read anybody besides ROH/TNA die-hards suggest Michaels/Cena at WM23 was "truly awful".

I'm sure there's plenty of WWE fans who think that match is crap, but mainly because they just hate Cena. I just went and googled some WWE forums and that seems to be the case. I will say though, at least more of the ROH fans who have said they don't think it was a great match have given better reasons than just a hatred of Cena

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The majority of Punk's matches have been short but that doesn't explain why all his matches seem to go exactly the same way. Most wrestlers have signature moves for their finish but most of Punk's matches have been the same old story throughout - kicks, clothesline, bulldog, maybe a clothesline off the top rope if we're lucky. Hardly stellar stuff.

Come on, the same argument has been used against Cena, and it's been true! Cena has had some (two by my count) great matches this year, but Punk's greatest matches have been far better. Have you seen a fair amount of work that Punk did before he joined WWE? Because if you haven't, then I don't think you can truly appreciate his ability, and how clear it is that WWE have limited him

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

And it's worth noting that the guy has been given longer matches on other programs. He had a match with Kennedy on Smackdown I recall prior to WM23 and if anything, Kennedy looked the more impressive.

Kennedy was booked to win the WM match, while Punk is on the 3rd rate show. I would imagine that it was intended to make Kennedy look more impressive

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well I am of the view that if you are not putting on stellar matches then you ought to be 'automatically disqualified' from being labelled the best wrestler in the world. A 5 minute Shawn Michaels match is going to deliver way more than a 5 minute CM Punk match. Do you dispute that?

It is my opinion that Punk hasn't been given the opportunity to work a stellar match yet. You've bought up the Survivor Series match, which isn't the sort of match where you can steal the show unless you're booked to. In the Elimination Chamber he was first out, he wasn't booked to look strong or to steal the show. In the MITB match he was as impressive as anyone else in the match I thought. The way Shelton got the wrestling world buzzing was by doing one move. I forget what he did two years ago, but last year he jumped from the ropes to the ladder. Punk's ability extends to more than just doing a high spot. Again, I've got to ask if you've seen him wrestle outside of WWE if you're going to fairly assess his abilities

You've also got to remember that Shawn's wrestled plenty of short matches in his career, while the majority of ones Punk has worked have been much longer

Mr.Nice Guy · 14-05-2007 7:24pm

Fozzy wrote:

I'm sure there's plenty of WWE fans who think that match is crap, but mainly because they just hate Cena. I just went and googled some WWE forums and that seems to be the case. I will say though, at least more of the ROH fans who have said they don't think it was a great match have given better reasons than just a hatred of Cena.

Well you seem to be hinting at two extreme lines of thought. That incidentally is the way I personally look at it. You have those who are too critical of the guy (most ROH fans) and those who just don't won't give him any credit at all (large section of the WWE fans - 'Lol Cena sux, DX rulz') etc. That's the way it seems to be to me anyway. There's no middle ground for the guy.

Fozzy wrote:

Come on, the same argument has been used against Cena, and it's been true! Cena has had some (two by my count) great matches this year, but Punk's greatest matches have been far better. Have you seen a fair amount of work that Punk did before he joined WWE? Because if you haven't, then I don't think you can truly appreciate his ability, and how clear it is that WWE have limited him.

I've seen a lot of his ROH matches which I did like (didn't feel they were 5 star but I liked them) but you have to admit that this style of wrestling can't work on a WWE two hour, or in his case one hour, TV show. Cena can work the WWE style right now. Can Punk?

Think back to Cena's first few months in WWE when he was a heel. Now compare it to Punk's. Which is the more impressive? Be honest.

Fozzy wrote:

Kennedy was booked to win the WM match, while Punk is on the 3rd rate show. I would imagine that it was intended to make Kennedy look more impressive

I've no doubt that was the intention but that didn't mean Punk couldn't have come across as impressive too. The Benoits, Michaels, Finlays of this world can be defeated and look good in the process. Hell, you said before that the Edge/Orton match was one of your favourites and in that match Orton came out of it impressive despite losing clean. So why can't Punk do this? Don't tell me the agents want him to look bad because he's one of the most pushed guys on ECW now.

Fozzy wrote:

It is my opinion that Punk hasn't been given the opportunity to work a stellar match yet. You've bought up the Survivor Series match, which isn't the sort of match where you can steal the show unless you're booked to. In the Elimination Chamber he was first out, he wasn't booked to look strong or to steal the show. In the MITB match he was as impressive as anyone else in the match I thought. The way Shelton got the wrestling world buzzing was by doing one move. I forget what he did two years ago, but last year he jumped from the ropes to the ladder. Punk's ability extends to more than just doing a high spot. Again, I've got to ask if you've seen him wrestle outside of WWE if you're going to fairly assess his abilities

See my problem with this line of thinking is the idea that Punk has to be booked to have a stellar performance. Do you think Michaels is booked to have a stellar performance or does he just have the capability to do it? I recall Shelton's performance being more impressive than the spot you touched on where he ran up the ladder. He pulled out some other cool moves too. If Punk's ability extends to more than just a high spot why is he giving us the same old match every week of every month? He ought to steal the show at some point if he's one of the world's best wrestlers.

Fozzy wrote:

You've also got to remember that Shawn's wrestled plenty of short matches in his career, while the majority of ones Punk has worked have been much longer

So exactly what length does the match have to be before Punk can produce a stellar match for us all?

ec18 · 14-05-2007 8:19pm

This is getting boring Mr. Nice Guy just relax everyone has their own views....Fair enough you believe you your opinions are worth more than others....i may not agree with most of your views but i don't throw a hissy everytime someone disagrees with me....My problem with Cena is that he has held the title too long and its gotten boring and predictable

Mr.Nice Guy · 14-05-2007 8:27pm

ec18 wrote:

This is getting boring Mr. Nice Guy just relax everyone has their own views....Fair enough you believe you your opinions are worth more than others....i may not agree with most of your views but i don't throw a hissy everytime someone disagrees with me....My problem with Cena is that he has held the title too long and its gotten boring and predictable

Boring? Eh? Yeah everyone does have their own views - including me - so wind your neck in where mine are concerned.

ec18 · 14-05-2007 9:39pm

wind my neck? and we all know you have your own views

ShawnRaven · 14-05-2007 10:17pm

There's nothing wrong with someone having their own views, thats what the board is for, expressing em. However when someone elses views are forced down my throat (and then same person accuses me of forcing mine down his throat, not looking at anyone in particular as his defence), it just gets pretty f*cking lame.

VR!

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-05-2007 12:15am

validreasoning! wrote:

There's nothing wrong with someone having their own views, thats what the board is for, expressing em. However when someone elses views are forced down my throat (and then same person accuses me of forcing mine down his throat, not looking at anyone in particular as his defence), it just gets pretty f*cking lame.

VR!

Your obsession with me is pretty f*cking lame. I showed quotes of you forcing your views down everyone's throat and acting like it was gospel. I can reference them again if you want me to.

If you think I force my views down other people's throats and that I act like my views are gospel which can't be disputed then you are free to provide evidence of this. I don't think such evidence exists however. In the words of Chris Benoit, "prove me wrong".

Either put up or shut up.

MNG!

kyp_durron · 15-05-2007 1:00am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Your obsession with me is pretty f*cking lame. I showed quotes of you forcing your views down everyone's throat and acting like it was gospel. I can reference them again if you want me to.

If you think I force my views down other people's throats and that I act like my views are gospel which can't be disputed then you are free to provide evidence of this. I don't think such evidence exists however. In the words of Chris Benoit, "prove me wrong".

Either put up or shut up.

MNG!

You may talk tough Mr Nice Guy, but

gimmick · 15-05-2007 9:19am

MNG wrote:

You think other opinions influence my own? After every PPV I watch I send in my thoughts to the main wrestling websites, plus this forum I might add, without having checked out what other people have said. It just turns out that the most respected wrestling minds agree with me whereas...well, I don't think I've read anybody besides ROH/TNA die-hards suggest Michaels/Cena at WM23 was "truly awful". But hey, you think what you like.

You seem to conveniently forget that I gave Cena Micahels II huge credit, bith here and elsewhere. That should have been the WM match. But If your chum Dave Meltzer tells you otherwise, thats fine with me.

As for the bit Ive highlighted, well thats fantastic. After every PPV when someone disagrees with you, you always refer to meltzer, as if what he says is gospel. To be perfectly honest I find Meltzers opinions overbearing, and cannot see why he gets respect from, well, anyone. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

Your opinions on Cena seem to be generated by others peoples dislike of him. Here is my opinion on him. I am not a fan, but can see that he is certainly not as bad as the boos suggest he is. The worst thing about him is his gimmick. I have enjoyed a few of his matches, but the Umaga match was crap. Simple as that. May as well watch CZW/XPW or some other god awful hardcore league. Cena HBK I was a massive let down. If you enjoyed it, greta, you obviously have set yourself lower expectations than what I have.

If you think I force my views down other people's throats and that I act like my views are gospel which can't be disputed then you are free to provide evidence of this. I don't think such evidence exists however.

I agree with VR on this - the evidence is every reply to when someone disgrees with you - you rarely, if ever, acknowledge the other has a point.

We have gone so far off topic here its unreal. OP, reading this thread is a good reason to not watch wrestling again.

Vince135792003 · 15-05-2007 9:56am

gimmick wrote:

As for the bit Ive highlighted, well thats fantastic. After every PPV when someone disagrees with you, you always refer to meltzer, as if what he says is gospel. To be perfectly honest I find Meltzers opinions overbearing, and cannot see why he gets respect from, well, anyone. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

I just want to say a few things on that. Dave Meltzer is not the gospel of wrestling. He has opinions just like everybody else and thats what they are, opinions, albeit very well informed ones given he's watched so much. I don't think his opinions are the gospel truth but I would say that they are opinions worth listening to.

About respecting him in general, he's covered wrestling in depth more than anyone else ever has on a weekly basis for 25 years. That carries a weight of respect in my mind.

Another reason why I respect him is that I think he's a great writer. He churns 25,000-40,000 words out on a weekly basis. Yet his recent pieces on Bad News Brown, Randy Couture, Brian Pillman and World Class Championship wrestling are phenomenal. I love reading them.

Even look at his columns (which are free) in the LA times. They are so well written.

Another reason I respect him is that after so long covering it, he's still really passionate about covering wrestling. He oozes enthusiasm.

This is probably coming across as me kissing his ass and I guess I am but I just think its wrong to have no respect for someone who has dedicated their life to covering wrestling and doing it in such a professional way as he has.

gimmick · 15-05-2007 10:14am

Fair points above, it just annoys me when people (lots of people on lots of forums do it) think that because Meltzer said something, its right. Just because he liked a match or PPV does not mean we all should.

Vince135792003 · 15-05-2007 11:16am

Fair point

Double C · 15-05-2007 1:51pm

Just a few random points I want to put across. Im not arsed doing that quoting thing. On the CM Punk argument, no, he hasn't had a stellar match in WWE yet, because, IMO he hasn't had the chance to shine yet. The Survivor Series match was one team killing the other, no one individual can shine in a match like that. The Elimination Chamber was to put over Lashley, nothing else. He did well, just like the others in the MitB match, but no one was overly impressive in that one. Punk gets is big chance this Sunday to put on a stellar match with Burke and I think he will.

As for Cena. I like him. I hated him this time last year, same as everyone else, but he has proven to me that he can go in the ring and i capable of having great matches, with the right opponent. The things I don't like about him are the fact that he has held the belt for 20 of the last 24 months. The way he applies the STFU, he never looks like he is really pulling back on it and it pisses me off seeing guys like Benoit and Michaels tapping to it. And his gimmick. What is it any more? Is he still a rapper? When is his next album out

I saw a match between Steamboat and Terry Funk the other day. Why can't we have a babyface like Steamboat these days? Someone everyone loves and can get behind. Michaels is a close as WWE have but after that there is no one.

As for the Meltzer thing, I don't read or listen to him, but when I hear about him giving anything over a 3 and a half star rating I'll try and check out the match. I know a lot of people here go out of their way to listen to him every week and that's fine, it's just a little annoying when his opinion is bandied about as better than someone else's.

With ROH, BJ Whitmer is an excellent brawler who can work the mat as well. He's had some great matches with Brent Albright and a quality feud with Jimmy Jacobs. I like his work.
ROH fans are very passionate about the product and do "look down" on sports entertainment. Cena is a perfect example of sports entertainment and gets used as a scapegoat frequently.
Mr Nice Guy said that WWE has been putting on the best wrestling of the year so far. This is understandable because they have really turned it up a notch in 2007. That is his opinion. Mine is that ROH from what I've seen so far has put on better stuff. Better stuff as in what I want to see. The Briscoes vs Steen and Generico, Jacobs vs Whitmer, Nigel vs Rave etc.

As far as the kittens, it's not big and it's not clever. You know Tim Lovejoy would agree.

joe123 · 15-05-2007 2:53pm

To Mr.Nice Guy, Calling someones comments ridiculous just makes you look like an arrogant sod. Try and stop looking down on people just because they have a different oppinion.

About Finlay and Regal. Regal is just a wrestler I dont like and he is pretty poor if given a short match. Finlay just has a really old look about him makes it hard to believe hed be able to stand toe to toe with the younger wrestlers.

What I first started this thread with was that the standard in WWE has gone way down since the attitude era. I havent seen Cenas WM23 match but from what I have seen I cant believe hes a main eventer. He really needs to learn to add variety to his wrestling. And his character has been seen so many times.Boring.

Can you honestly say the WWE is in good shape? Maybe because I hadnt seen the modern WWE since just before the invasion thing its hitting me harder.But im finding it hard to watch half the matches on show anymore.

Someone laughed at me mentioning Steve Blackman as a good Wrestler. Sorry but just because he never main evented and didnt really mic, doesnt stop him from being a great wrestler. He had some great matches back when the WWE was the WWF. He knew DIFFERENT moves. (Cena,Umaga take note)

I havent really checked the ROH yet but TNA are pulling off some good matches. Their X division is really good. Cant remember his name but the Indian dude put on a great match last week on it.

Id much rather see a main event involving Sting,Kurt Angle and Christian than one with Cena or Umaga.( Also Christian is really good on the mic, never seen him in WWE on it)

gimmick · 15-05-2007 4:26pm

Regal is actually a very good technical wrestler, who is used alot to help rookies through. he even made Lashley look vaguely passable in Autumn 06.

I think people have rose tinted glasses on with regard to The Attitude Era. Scratch slightly beneath the surface and the quality of wrestling was not all that good. It was far more storyline driven that match driven. There were some great fueds at the time, no doubting that, nor is there any doubting the entertainment value of the time, but wrestling wise, it was not great at all.

Re Cena, I think he was pushed to main event too soon, people had not really accepted him as anything other than a mid carder when he got there. This was not his fault. And to be fair to the guy he has done a fantastic job is improving on an almost weekly basis. I still care little for his matches, but they are not nearly as bad as early last year.

Id much rather see a main event involving Sting,Kurt Angle and Christian than one with Cena or Umaga.( Also Christian is really good on the mic, never seen him in WWE on it)

Booked well, the former 3 are great, but TNAs booking is awful at present (some would say always has been - I dont know enough to comment).

Bubs101 · 15-05-2007 4:33pm

gimmick wrote:

but TNAs booking is awful at present (some would say always has been - I dont know enough to comment).

I wish people would stop judging all of TNA's booking on two terrible gimmick matches and Jay Lethal. The wrestling is at least on par with the WWE . For crying out loud, Cena was crying on Raw yesterday.

gimmick · 15-05-2007 4:36pm

TNAs booking, IMO, is awful because they cannot seem to have a match without a run in. The X Division is becoming a 2nd though. People like Alex Shelley and Chris Sabin are horrificly under utilized.

Oh ya, and Jay Lethals new gimmick.

Vince135792003 · 15-05-2007 4:44pm

Bubs101 wrote:

I wish people would stop judging all of TNA's booking on two terrible gimmick matches and Jay Lethal.

Theres a lot more wrong with TNA's booking than just 2 gimmick matches. Check out the last 9 months of tv. Theres a reason why only 2% of their audience typically buy their shows.

kyp_durron · 15-05-2007 5:42pm

Double C wrote:

As far as the kittens, it's not big and it's not clever. You know Tim Lovejoy would agree.

To be perfectly honest I find Lovejoys opinion overbearing, and cannot see why he gets respect from, well, anyone. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

The kittens come out when it gets scary round here, MNG is quite scary you know /o\.

Joe I think the Indian dude you are referring to is Sonjay Dott, he is very good at flippy mac flip flip moves and is imo quite a talented guy.

Regal rules, end of

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-05-2007 7:40pm

gimmick wrote:

You seem to conveniently forget that I gave Cena Micahels II huge credit, bith here and elsewhere. That should have been the WM match. But If your chum Dave Meltzer tells you otherwise, thats fine with me.

Yeah you did give Cena/Michaels II credit. I didn't convenienlty forget that - I happen to agree with your opinion on it. And how exactly is Meltzer my chum? I'm not a subscriber to him as others on this forum are and I have openly disagreed with his views before. Vince can tell you that.

gimmick wrote:

As for the bit Ive highlighted, well thats fantastic. After every PPV when someone disagrees with you, you always refer to meltzer, as if what he says is gospel. To be perfectly honest I find Meltzers opinions overbearing, and cannot see why he gets respect from, well, anyone. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

I always refer to Meltzer? Baloney. I brought up Meltzer (and Alvarez) as they make a living off of wrestling and both thought highly of the match. As did PWInsider's Dave Scherer. But hey, maybe we're all wrong and you're right! We must all have such low expectations compared to you, gimmick!

For the record I don't treat Meltzer as gospel at all. In fact I think he gives ROH way too much credit.

gimmick wrote:

Your opinions on Cena seem to be generated by others peoples dislike of him. Here is my opinion on him. I am not a fan, but can see that he is certainly not as bad as the boos suggest he is. The worst thing about him is his gimmick. I have enjoyed a few of his matches, but the Umaga match was crap. Simple as that. May as well watch CZW/XPW or some other god awful hardcore league.

You say the Cena/Umaga match was crap - 'Simple as that'. So how come I get accused of putting over MY opinions at the expense of others yet YOU however have the ability to totally dismiss my opinion on that match and regard your own view as fact? What's up with that? If I'd made a comemnt like that people would be foaming at the mouth. Total f*cking hypocrisy.

gimmick wrote:

Cena HBK I was a massive let down. If you enjoyed it, greta, you obviously have set yourself lower expectations than what I have.

No I don't have lower expectations than you I just have fairer expectations. If Cena/HBK 1 had happened in ROH you'd be posting links to it and hyping it up no end.

gimmick wrote:

I agree with VR on this - the evidence is every reply to when someone disgrees with you - you rarely, if ever, acknowledge the other has a point.

Where is this evidence? I highlighted evidence above of you doing the very thing you claim to oppose. Here's some more interesting evidence from a post you made just a month ago on another thread:

gimmick wrote:

Anyone can start a thread, but it takes intelligence to contribute to it, and keep it going. Myself and MNG have had some famous arguments on this board. Generally we would never agree, but see each others point at the same time. Thats what a forum is about, not starting threads the whole time.

Fancy that! Funny how you changed your tune when I dared to question ROH! Oh no, we can't ever question ROH can we gimmick?! Give me a break.

Oh and I can't say I'm surprised you back VR. Hey maybe you regard his word as gospel?

Double C wrote:

ROH fans are very passionate about the product and do "look down" on sports entertainment. Cena is a perfect example of sports entertainment and gets used as a scapegoat frequently.
Mr Nice Guy said that WWE has been putting on the best wrestling of the year so far. This is understandable because they have really turned it up a notch in 2007. That is his opinion. Mine is that ROH from what I've seen so far has put on better stuff. Better stuff as in what I want to see. The Briscoes vs Steen and Generico, Jacobs vs Whitmer, Nigel vs Rave etc.

Fair enough, man.

joe123 wrote:

To Mr.Nice Guy, Calling someones comments ridiculous just makes you look like an arrogant sod. Try and stop looking down on people just because they have a different oppinion.

First of all, I don't look down on anybody. Second of all, people are free to think what they like of me. Lastly, if I think someone's views are ridiculous what is wrong in pointing that out? I don't make baseless points - I back them up. I thought this was a discussion forum.

Fozzy · 15-05-2007 7:59pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

For the record I don't treat Meltzer as gospel at all. In fact I think he gives ROH way too much credit.

But I keep getting the impression that you don't watch much ROH stuff at all. If that is the case, then how can you judge whether he gives them too much credit?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

If Cena/HBK 1 had happened in ROH you'd be posting links to it and hyping it up no end.

I seriously doubt that would happen. I can't remember the last big ROH match where someone didn't sell a body part that had been worked on for 10 minutes. If it happened in ROH, their fans would be much more critical I think. I would be anyway, ignoring selling would be kinda inexcusable in that situation. In WWE, it was a much better match than most of Cena's had ever been

I just think that you're giving ROH way too little credit here! And like I said, I'm not sure how much of it you've actually seen. I know you've seen a good few matches, but have you ever watched a full event or followed any angles? It reminds me a little of the big TNA/UFC discussion we had at the new year, I don't think you had been watching UFC at all

I might go back and reply to your other post quoting me later, I should really be studying

Vince135792003 · 15-05-2007 8:05pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

And how exactly is Meltzer my chum? I'm not a subscriber to him as others on this forum are and I have openly disagreed with his views before. Vince can tell you that.

I can confirm this. There is a thread quite similar to this on Big stories of 2006 where a debate arose over MMA/UFC growth versus TNA growth in 2006. Its not pretty.

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-05-2007 10:04pm

Fozzy wrote:

But I keep getting the impression that you don't watch much ROH stuff at all. If that is the case, then how can you judge whether he gives them too much credit?

It's true that I don't watch much ROH stuff. I just don't like it. That's why I think Meltzer gives them too much credit. Personally I think the majority of matches go on far too long and I dislike the false finishes. Case in point - Meltzer gave the ROH match between Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi and Ryo Saito vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi and Masato Yoshino 5 stars. I watched this match and went from at one point thinking it could be a classic...to bursting out laughing at the amount of false finishes. It became a farce in my eyes. The fans chanted "Please don't stop" when I felt the finish should have come well beforehand!

Now maybe this kind of thing appeals to some wrestling fans. After all WSX was a style of wrestling I just couldn't get used to. Personally I regard pro wrestling as performance art and I watch it for the drama involved. I want a story. I dislike spots for the sake of spots and I think Meltzer's take on wrestling differs from me in that regard.

Bryan Alvarez made the point recently on an audio show (and for the record this is not me agreeing with my 'chum' I just happen to agree with him strongly on this point) that he'll go from watching an ROH match and being really absorbed by it, into being fed up because there were so many false finishes and because it went on too long. That's the way I do feel.

Fozzy wrote:

I seriously doubt that would happen. I can't remember the last big ROH match where someone didn't sell a body part that had been worked on for 10 minutes. If it happened in ROH, their fans would be much more critical I think. I would be anyway, ignoring selling would be kinda inexcusable in that situation. In WWE, it was a much better match than most of Cena's had ever been.

Well I think had it happened in ROH those fans would have been more forgiving. This hysteria over Cena's leg sell seemed to stem from the story that emerged which suggested Michaels was pissed off with Cena over the match. A story which turned out to be false and which, if I recall correctly, turned out to have been invented by someone who used Meltzer's name.

Fozzy wrote:

I just think that you're giving ROH way too little credit here! And like I said, I'm not sure how much of it you've actually seen. I know you've seen a good few matches, but have you ever watched a full event or followed any angles? It reminds me a little of the big TNA/UFC discussion we had at the new year, I don't think you had been watching UFC at all

I might go back and reply to your other post quoting me later, I should really be studying

Well as I think I've mentioned before, since I'm not a fan of ROH's stuff I'll only check out matches from ROH that have been widely praised. For my own curiosity mainly. While I liked a lot of Joe and Punk's stuff I do think the matches are very over-hyped. For example, Kenta vs Joe is a match that people were raving about, again which Meltzer gave 5 stars, which I went out of my way to check out. I just didn't get why people loved it so much and I still don't. I guess if you like stiffness for the sake of stiffness you'll enjoy it but I'm more interested in matches that will grip me.

Vince135792003 · 15-05-2007 10:21pm

Just to be a little more specific so Alvarez doesn't get accused of liking or not liking certain things.

On the 6 man Dragon gate match you referred too, I remember listening to his audio show and he gushed over the match. His recommendation persuaded me to buy the dvd. I wasn't disappointed when I watched it.

On their being too many false finishes or matches going too long, its been the Briscoes who he has primarily criticised more so than the whole of ROH itself.

I don't want to sound like his spokesperson but I just think its fair to point out that when he was referring to matches going too long or having too many false finishes, the Dragon Gate match was not 1 of them.

Fozzy · 15-05-2007 11:18pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It's true that I don't watch much ROH stuff. I just don't like it. That's why I think Meltzer gives them too much credit.

I like ROH, I'm liking WWE, and personally, I think ROH is better! I don't think they get any more credit than they should

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Case in point - Meltzer gave the ROH match between Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi and Ryo Saito vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi and Masato Yoshino 5 stars.

I actually watched this match again last weekend and....I realised it wasn't as good as some Dragon Gate matches I've seen. The crowd were better than the Japanese though. Still, that match is more representative of Dragon Gate than ROH

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Personally I regard pro wrestling as performance art and I watch it for the drama involved. I want a story. I dislike spots for the sake of spots and I think Meltzer's take on wrestling differs from me in that regard.

I'd argue that there's plenty of ROH matches that are more about drama than spots. I watched Bryan Danielson vs Roderick Strong (main event from the same show as the Dragon Gate 6-man tag) the other day, an hour long match and there were no crazy spots at all. But it was an amazing match, and there's been many like it. Also, I'd just add that there's plenty of matches from Japan that Meltzer's rated 5 stars that aren't about spots at all, just some of the best storytelling I've ever seen. Worth checking out if you've never given them a go

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

While I liked a lot of Joe and Punk's stuff I do think the matches are very over-hyped. For example, Kenta vs Joe is a match that people were raving about, again which Meltzer gave 5 stars, which I went out of my way to check out. I just didn't get why people loved it so much and I still don't. I guess if you like stiffness for the sake of stiffness you'll enjoy it but I'm more interested in matches that will grip me.

That's a strange match. A lot of ROH fans don't like it, or at least don't think it deserves 5 stars. If you've never seen Kobashi before and you don't understand how big a legend he is, and if you don't appreciate how big a legend in ROH Joe is, then you wouldn't really get the match. It was a meeting of two of the biggest stars that no one thought they'd see. I remember someone sayin that no matter what happened Meltzer would give it 5 stars, and I'd agree. It was great seeing those two in the same ring, but in terms of match quality, both men have had dozens of better matches. Kobashi more so! He's had a ton of matches during the 90's in All Japan that have had me on the edge of my seat

And to just bring some points forward from your earlier post..

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well you seem to be hinting at two extreme lines of thought. That incidentally is the way I personally look at it. You have those who are too critical of the guy (most ROH fans) and those who just don't won't give him any credit at all (large section of the WWE fans - 'Lol Cena sux, DX rulz') etc.

What are you basing the "most ROH fans" bit on? I felt looking through that thread on the ROH forum that the general consensus was that Cena's doing well and that he'd be good in ROH. I think someone even summed it up like that on the last page of it

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I've seen a lot of his ROH matches which I did like (didn't feel they were 5 star but I liked them) but you have to admit that this style of wrestling can't work on a WWE two hour, or in his case one hour, TV show. Cena can work the WWE style right now. Can Punk?

I absolutely believe Punk can. His 5 minute matches have been much better than Cena's 5 minute matches that he's had so many times. Although I can't remember him having any short matches like that recently in fairness. If Punk were given the opportunity to go one hour with Shawn Michaels, then I'd be certain that he'd put on a good match

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Think back to Cena's first few months in WWE when he was a heel. Now compare it to Punk's. Which is the more impressive? Be honest.

Personally, I'd go with Punk. Cena's first match was great, the one with Angle. After that though, I was just left thinking how good a wrestler Kurt was to put on a good match with him. Punk's been putting on some solid matches, the ones I've seen anyway. Cena was wrestling the likes of Chris Jericho though, wasn't he? Punk's stuck with Kevin Thorn and Marcus Cor Von! I'd go with Punk

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I've no doubt that was the intention but that didn't mean Punk couldn't have come across as impressive too. The Benoits, Michaels, Finlays of this world can be defeated and look good in the process. Hell, you said before that the Edge/Orton match was one of your favourites and in that match Orton came out of it impressive despite losing clean. So why can't Punk do this? Don't tell me the agents want him to look bad because he's one of the most pushed guys on ECW now.

I can't remember the match that well, but I definitely didn't think "Punk did bad there" after it. I can't really comment further, but I'm sure I could add something after Judgment Day

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

See my problem with this line of thinking is the idea that Punk has to be booked to have a stellar performance. Do you think Michaels is booked to have a stellar performance or does he just have the capability to do it?

I wasn't implying that someone has to be booked to have a great performance. I mentioned that he hasn't been given the opportunity to do that yet. Like I said, if he were booked in an hour long match with HBK, I'd put my money on him having a great match. Being booked in the main event of WM requires a stellar performance, being booked on openers of ECW does not hold as much pressure or expectation. Switch the two lads around and I think we'd see them both doing each others jobs pretty much to the same standard. Do you think that Shawn would be having stellar performances on ECW if booked in the same way as Punk?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I recall Shelton's performance being more impressive than the spot you touched on where he ran up the ladder. He pulled out some other cool moves too. If Punk's ability extends to more than just a high spot why is he giving us the same old match every week of every month? He ought to steal the show at some point if he's one of the world's best wrestlers.

Matches like MITB are booked around high spots. In that sense, I'd imagine it's more up to the guys in the back than whoever's in the ring at the time as to pull out the moves. One of the major reasons that Punk has entertained me so much since I first saw him is that his character and mic work is right up there with the best today. His character hasn't gotten a real push in my opinion, and he's obviously been fed lines on the big occasions he's had to speak. I wouldn't rank him as one of the top in-ring guys (although he's brilliant), but as an all-round performer he's right up there

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

So exactly what length does the match have to be before Punk can produce a stellar match for us all?

As long as any other good wrestler would take to have a stellar match. I can't imagine Benoit pulling out a stellar match in 5 or 10 minutes. He'd have a solid match, but I'd describe most of Punk's 5 minute matches as solid too. Hopefully he gets a decent length of time this Sunday. And if he doesn't put on a good match....then I'll just claim that he can't work as a face!

Sorry for the long post, but Punk's one of the few I'll defend til the end!

Mr.Nice Guy · 16-05-2007 12:35am

Fozzy wrote:

What are you basing the "most ROH fans" bit on? I felt looking through that thread on the ROH forum that the general consensus was that Cena's doing well and that he'd be good in ROH. I think someone even summed it up like that on the last page of it

Well in fairness one of the people I quoted on that thread was also of the view that most ROH fans would never give the guy a chance. This is what I'm used to hearing.

Fozzy wrote:

I absolutely believe Punk can. His 5 minute matches have been much better than Cena's 5 minute matches that he's had so many times. Although I can't remember him having any short matches like that recently in fairness. If Punk were given the opportunity to go one hour with Shawn Michaels, then I'd be certain that he'd put on a good match

I don't see much of a difference between Cena's short matches and Punk's. What I do feel is that so far this year, Cena has delivered finer performances than Punk. Now obviously Punk hasn't had the TV time that Cena has had (though I feel he's had time enough to do more than he has) but so far Punk has been OK whereas Cena has clearly really improved.

I think if Punk had the opportunity to go near an hour with Michaels that it would be a good match. Would it be better than Cena's? I'm not sure. But that's the thing - so far Cena has delivered. Punk has yet to deliver that stellar WWE match.

My own view on Cena is that so far he's been involved in four top notch matches with the Raw match being my fav MOTY thus far.

Fozzy wrote:

Personally, I'd go with Punk. Cena's first match was great, the one with Angle. After that though, I was just left thinking how good a wrestler Kurt was to put on a good match with him. Punk's been putting on some solid matches, the ones I've seen anyway. Cena was wrestling the likes of Chris Jericho though, wasn't he? Punk's stuck with Kevin Thorn and Marcus Cor Von! I'd go with Punk

I'll concede that Cena had much better talent to work with but you'd similarly have to acknowledge that Punk came in with more fanfare than Cena did. On Punk's debut he came across as a star thanks to the Hammerstein crowd whereas no one knew who Cena was. I felt Cena worked harder to make a name for himself than Punk who from the start had Heyman's full support. Also Cena through his rap gimmick got himself very over and even had a title match with Lesnar a Backlash (in what was a fine match) and by mid-2003 was looking a true star. Punk is nearly a year in WWE now and does he come across as a true star on the level that Cena was? Don't think so.

Fozzy wrote:

I can't remember the match that well, but I definitely didn't think "Punk did bad there" after it. I can't really comment further, but I'm sure I could add something after Judgment Day

He didn't look bad but he was just...there. How come Matt Hardy can take Kennedy to a really good match for example? Even if Kennedy had won that bout it would have still been a great performance from both. That's what I'm constantly waiting from Punk. That big performance that has me on the edge of my seat. I just don't recall any match from him in WWE that has done that for me. He's had long enough though.

Fozzy wrote:

I wasn't implying that someone has to be booked to have a great performance. I mentioned that he hasn't been given the opportunity to do that yet. Like I said, if he were booked in an hour long match with HBK, I'd put my money on him having a great match. Being booked in the main event of WM requires a stellar performance, being booked on openers of ECW does not hold as much pressure or expectation. Switch the two lads around and I think we'd see them both doing each others jobs pretty much to the same standard.

Well see the way I look at it, Cena is where he is because he's earned it. Has Punk? I'm sure most ROH fans think he has but the WWE is the big time and I don't think his performances have blown anyone away in Stamford.

Fozzy wrote:

Do you think that Shawn would be having stellar performances on ECW if booked in the same way as Punk?

I do think he would have had at least one. We are talking about Shawn Michaels. At the end of the day I'm not saying Punk should be having the best matches every week. I'm saying he should have had at least one having been there nearly a year.

Fozzy wrote:

Matches like MITB are booked around high spots. In that sense, I'd imagine it's more up to the guys in the back than whoever's in the ring at the time as to pull out the moves. One of the major reasons that Punk has entertained me so much since I first saw him is that his character and mic work is right up there with the best today. His character hasn't gotten a real push in my opinion, and he's obviously been fed lines on the big occasions he's had to speak. I wouldn't rank him as one of the top in-ring guys (although he's brilliant), but as an all-round performer he's right up there

I also think his mic work and his acting in general have been very good. I think however he could endeavour to steal the show more in the ring. I think you're wrong about him not getting a real push though. I think he's getting as good a push as he can considering everything is revolving around Lashley.

Fozzy wrote:

As long as any other good wrestler would take to have a stellar match. I can't imagine Benoit pulling out a stellar match in 5 or 10 minutes. He'd have a solid match, but I'd describe most of Punk's 5 minute matches as solid too. Hopefully he gets a decent length of time this Sunday. And if he doesn't put on a good match....then I'll just claim that he can't work as a face!

Well Burke is someone who has impressed me even though I reckon he's only got as much time for his matches as Punk has. I hope the match on Sunday is good and I'm sure it won't be bad but I think Punk needs to step up if he is to be regarded as one of the world's best.

On the stuff you say about ROH, a lot of that is very reasonable and I don't disagree with your points.

gimmick · 16-05-2007 9:25am

Re the dragongate 6 man - I would imagine the 5 starts for that were given from a live perspective. It was no where near a 5 star match IMO. Too spotty, and no psychology whatsoever.

Kobashi Vs Joe - not seen it, but as mentioned this was always going to be given the 5 stars given the competitors. Kobashi is not over rated though.

Double C · 16-05-2007 11:45am

On a completely different topic, why hasn't anyone mentioned that Dragon Kid, CIMA and Doug Williams are doing an IWW show soon? I thought that would have been newsworthy!

gimmick · 16-05-2007 11:51am

Its in the Irish Promotions sticky.

Ill certainly be making the journey for that, CIMA if for no ther reason. Apparently more from NOAH to be announced. Too much to ask for Marufuji or KENTA obviously but maybe Go Shiosaki again, and Mohamed Yone.

Anyone else from here going?

Fozzy · 16-05-2007 2:34pm

I'll definitely be goin, I'm hopin for Kobashi and Misawa from NOAH myself! Failing that, I'd love to see Shiga, though probably still unlikely

Anyway, back on topic..whatever the topic is now....

I haven't really got too much more to add on Punk, I'd just end up repeating myself. I've got complete faith in him puttin on some great matches when he gets what I feel is a real opportunity to

ShawnRaven · 17-05-2007 8:13pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Oh and I can't say I'm surprised you back VR. Hey maybe you regard his word as gospel?

Oh and what a surprise, someone makes a valid point that goes against your judgment and out comes the backhand. You do realise that with quotes like the above that you're making a horses ass out of yourself each time?

Always on the defensive... sad really because you'll never change.
VR!

Jerichoholic · 18-05-2007 1:59am

Fozzy wrote:

I'll definitely be goin, I'm hopin for Kobashi and Misawa from NOAH myself! Failing that, I'd love to see Shiga, though probably still unlikely

Anyway, back on topic..whatever the topic is now....

I haven't really got too much more to add on Punk, I'd just end up repeating myself. I've got complete faith in him puttin on some great matches when he gets what I feel is a real opportunity to

I doubt strongly Kobashi or Misawa will be on that show, Kobashi has cancer for one and Misawa is just a grumpy old whatsit. If Misawa does somehow think IWW is the right move for his career, I'll definetly be popping in to see that one.

gimmick · 18-05-2007 9:11am

Kobashi has the all clear now, no?

Lucas10101 · 18-05-2007 12:05pm

I just started watching 2 years ago.....

Fozzy · 18-05-2007 2:26pm

Jerichoholic wrote:

I doubt strongly Kobashi or Misawa will be on that show, Kobashi has cancer for one and Misawa is just a grumpy old whatsit. If Misawa does somehow think IWW is the right move for his career, I'll definetly be popping in to see that one.

Haha, I know. Kobashi has been cleared last I heard, and he's currently training to get back in the ring. Ya never know, Misawa might want to sample a foreign culture before he does some ROH shows later this year....I can dream!

Just started watching wrestling again

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