BMW morkeshing makes me sick

Type 17

Johnny Storm wrote:

Whatever about the merits or otherwise of the alleged "feature" I find the tone of smug condescension used in the advert really gets on my tits.

What he said!

Owen

maidhc wrote:

The Peugeot engine in the MINI is a fine powerplant! Bet "powered by Pug" isn't on the tailgate though!

When will this rumour stop? It's not a Peugeot engine. It's a MINI designed engine, built by MINI in Hams Hall. To keep costs down, Peugeot are allowed to use the same engines in their cars, but not with the same power output ... the 175Bhp 1.6 Turbo engine in the Cooper S is only 150Bhp in the 207GT. Bulk manufacturing (By both companies) allows the costs to be kept to a minimum.

Owen

Type 17 wrote:

It is useful, but really primitive - a vacuum tube from the inlet manifold triggers the light when the vacuum (and therefore engine load) reaches a given threshold...

The one BMW use isn't just set to one particular RPM, it changes, depending on the load applied to the engine (Whether or not you have passengers, etc), the octane of the fuel, and has different thresholds for different gears. Yes they're obviously not the first (Digitool have been selling a standalone unit for years, I have it fitted to my Ducati), but they are the first to refine it to this level.

Type 17

No sweat, I was referring to the primitiveness of the original VW one - I presumed that things have moved on since then

Seth Brundle

Type 17 wrote:

That's what makes the ad annoying - the angle of the ad implies that the feature is new and innovative, when in fact it's neither.

True but at the same time, when advertisers are scrambling for any angle to promote the greeness of their cars nobody else is using this angle!

Type 17

kbannon wrote:

True but at the same time, when advertisers are scrambling for any angle to promote the greeness of their cars nobody else is using this angle!

It's hardly an angle - I remember that the VW mags were commenting to readers who asked, that the difference between driving with a "normal" driving style and paying strict attention to changing up when the light came on was less than a 5% MPG improvement. OK, 5% is something, but it involves changing your entire driving style (how many will bother, and how many will keep it up?) - it's not a feature that I'd rate as being worth a whole ad...

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

in 458 pages or a brief summary like in Ned78's post above that a modern diesel pollutes less and uses less fuel than an equivalent hybrid and then there's the production and disposal of the batteries used

Ah, the infamous and discredited CNW report. This has been used as a bandwagon for others to jump on, but has been dismissed by those who have actually read it (google, there are loads)

Did you know that it for comparison they give the Hummer a lifespan of 300,000 miles, whereas they only give the Prius a 100,000 miles? (In the wake of criticism they made a failed effort to explain why)

The CNW report is the only report making such claims about hybrids. Mmm. Me smells oil money.

colm_mcm

The gear shift indicator on the new Corolla and Auris is a bit more advanced than the economy neter fitted to the Carina E and Corolla 87-92 model.
It goes on how much pressure is being applied to the accelerator, what gear is selected, engine RPM, and how much pressure the engine is under by weight or steep inclines.
I find it makes me change into 5th a lot more than I normally would, and it does aid fuel consumption,

maidhc

ned78 wrote:

When will this rumour stop? It's not a Peugeot engine. It's a MINI designed engine, built by MINI in Hams Hall. To keep costs down, Peugeot are allowed to use the same engines in their cars, but not with the same power output ... the 175Bhp 1.6 Turbo engine in the Cooper S is only 150Bhp in the 207GT. Bulk manufacturing (By both companies) allows the costs to be kept to a minimum.

The diesel is pure PSA HDI though!

I thought the petrol was also designed in france!

E92

The parts for the petrol engine in the new MINI were sourced by PSA, while that engine was designed by BMW IIRC. I think I am right in saying that the new engine will not feature in any actual BMW(unless they decide to replace the 316i and 116i's N45 engine, something again that is rumoured to happen in the not too distant future). People are on about these 'questionable' aids now being fitted by BMW.They are supposed to give 70 % of the efficency improvements that a hybrid gives, without any of the drawbacks. BMW have said that until such time as they can make a petrol electric hybrid thats more efficient in the real world than a diesel, that they will not offer one for sale to the public. Says a lot really. In case anyone has forgotten, the middle letter of BMW is the German word for engine. The only thing that seems odd to me is why BMW havent started making FlexiFuel models, since they are supposed to reduce the net CO2 emissions by 80% (when running on full E85). As mentioned previously it comes up on the dash what gear you should select in these models.
You can disable the stop/start feature in a BMW if you dont like it as well, so if people are worried about the starter not being able to handle it/dont like the sensation of it etc. By the way the 207 IS available with the same turbo engine as featured in the MINI Cooper S(the GTi has the 175 bhp engine, and there are rumours abound that it will soon be uprated to 195 bhp). A modern diesel pollutes in some cases a good deal less CO2 than an equivalant petrol, less Carbon Monoxide, but slightly higher Nitrous Oxide(NOX), Particulates(PM)(which Petrols dont produce of course) and a lot more hydrocarbons(HC) than a petrol. With the new Euro V emissions, NOX, PM are under particular attention IIRC,thats why there was an article in Autocar saying that either this year or next year could be the peak of diesels sales sucess, because the technology required to make a diesel meet Euro V is so costly that it will only make financial sense to buy a diesel in a car that is Mondeo size or bigger, becauase the continentals will have to get used to paying the amount of extra money for a diesel that we already pay. By this I mean that spending say €2,500 to gain diesel power isnt a lot more on say a car like the 5 series. But spending €2,500 more to gain diesel power on a car like the Fiesta is a huge amount.(especially when one realises that cars like the Fiesta, Polo etc are very popular in the continent)

maidhc

E92 wrote:

They are supposed to give 70 % of the efficency improvements that a hybrid gives, without any of the drawbacks.

Assuming the driver considers it appropriate to buy the "ultimate driving machine" and then proceed to driving it like a nun in a micra!

Stephen

E92: How about the best of both worlds then, a diesel hybrid?

colm_mcm

diesel hybrid on the way from Toyota apparently

Owen

TBH, I'd love a Diesel Hybrid. 100Mpg is actually an acheiveable goal. For Maidhc, the Diesel MINI engine is 100% PSA, so you're dead right there. From what we're hearing, BMW are actually going to have Hydrogen in the UK before 2010, so that'll be interesting to see how it plays out with regard to filling stations, etc.

colm_mcm

a low revving diesel hybrid'd bve the job. the problem I have with the Prius is overtaking, the engine revs very high. keeping a diesel engine at peak torque with a CVT box as in the current prius would make for a very powerful car

Owen

Bugger. At this rate Colm, I could end up buying a Toyota!

JHMEG

ned78 wrote:

BMW are actually going to have Hydrogen in the UK before 2010

Afaik this will *burn* the hydrogen. They have a 750i prototype burning the stuff seen already. Has less power than 2 litre petrol, and the fuel economy is brutal.

The only efficient use of hydrogen seems to be fuel cells.

JHMEG

E92 wrote:

BMW have said that until such time as they can make a petrol electric hybrid thats more efficient in the real world than a diesel, that they will not offer one for sale to the public.

Have a look at my real world sig. In the real world do BMW make a diesel that does 70+ mpg?

I'd contest that BMW don't make hybrids because they don't have the expertise.

unkel

ned78 wrote:

the Diesel MINI engine is 100% PSA

I'm just back from holidays today. I had a new Peugeot 307 with the 110BHP diesel engine as a rental car. I presume that's the same engine as is in the new Mini? While sounding like a tractor, the engine was quite impressive with a huge range of rpm where torque was plentiful - so most of the times where I would normally change gear, it would not really have been necessary. Round a roundabout in 3rd while exiting with pace, even up through a hairpin in 3rd with no labouring whatsoever! The latter would have meant back to 1st in most cars (including diesels) 15-20 years ago.

With a fully laden car, in plenty of heavy traffic with a lot of city and mountain driving and automatic climate control on, I did about 50MPG. Now that is very impressive indeed.

JHMEG wrote:

Did you know that it for comparison they give the Hummer a lifespan of 300,000 miles, whereas they only give the Prius a 100,000 miles? (In the wake of criticism they made a failed effort to explain why)

Yes I know all that. As I said before, (haven't seen any stats on Honda, only on Toyota, but I'm presuming similar results) the batteries seem to last very well, better than the pessimists had predicted. When will the batteries die though? What happens to the batteries after end-of-life and who is paying for that? Surely you do agree that a hybrid is an economical write-off* ** when the batteries finally give the ghost?

* Definition of economical write-off being that the car after repair is worth less than the car before repair plus the repair costs, i.e. (figures completely made up by me) a 10 year old Prius in good condition might be worth €4k. A battery replacement might cost €5k. So no one will replace the batteries when they fail!

** So when the batteries will not be replaced, the electro motor, while probably still working fine, will become an idle burden, even when the dead batteries are taken out of the car and disposed of

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

Have a look at my real world sig

With all due respect, your "real world" sig doesn't mean anything. What was the charge in the batteries before and after?

Thousands of Prius owners have complained that they get nowhere near the official figures in the real world. Nothing new there except the discrepancy between real and official figures seems to be in the order of 50% or so for the Prius :eek:

JHMEG

Ok, I'll try to answer this as accurately as possible, from what I know..

unkel wrote:

Yes I know all that. As I said before, (haven't seen any stats on Honda, only on Toyota, but I'm presuming similar results) the batteries seem to last very well, better than the pessimists had predicted. When will the batteries die though?

The logic behind the charge controller is way more advanced than we are used to with laptop etc. This is because there is much more control over these functions in a hybrid. You can run your laptop without external power (mains), but a hybrid always has petrol. In other words the charge controller in your laptop could be thinking "a squirt of juice now would really prolong the battery life", but the controller can doing nothing about it. As often happens in the IMA, the contoller decided a trickle charge would be beneficial, the car is running on petrol, and the charge indicator lights up two bars. The battery can have as much as a 60% (indicated) charge when this happens.

In real terms the first Priuses came on the market in Japan in 1997. They are still running with the original batteries.

I don't know what Honda's line on it is (they bought back most Insights when they hit 100,000 miles), but Toyota's line is that the batteries will last "the lifetime of the car".

unkel wrote:

What happens to the batteries after end-of-life and who is paying for that? Surely you do agree that a hybrid is an economical write-off* ** when the batteries finally give the ghost?

Like any other batteries, especially ones containing nickel, they are recycled. This saves on mining yet more nickel from Canada. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the nickel is extracted in either Wales or China. (nearly sure it's Wales). And this is all batteries containing nickel, like the ones in your digital camera etc.

unkel wrote:

A battery replacement might cost €5k. So no one will replace the batteries when they fail!

Bear in mind the warranties on the hybrid components is huge, at 8 years. The battery pack in the wife's Civic IMA (which also contains the charge controller) has 120 small-ish (C-size) NiMH batteries in it. The whole pack, including charge controller is €3,000 new.[/QUOTE]

unkel wrote:

So when the batteries will not be replaced, the electro motor, while probably still working fine, will become an idle burden, even when the dead batteries are taken out of the car and disposed of

The motor is very clever, as it's a motor, a starter motor and a generator. Picture a magnetic flywheel, with a doughnut shaped coil assembly around it. Put power through the coil and the whole thing becomes a motor. Conversely a spinning magnet inside a coil generates electricity. So, no, it's not a drag.

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

With all due respect, your "real world" sig doesn't mean anything. What was the charge in the batteries before and after?

Thousands of Prius owners have complained that they get nowhere near the official figures in the real world. Nothing new there except the discrepancy between real and official figures seems to be in the order of 50% or so for the Prius :eek:

Unkel, not having driven a Civic IMA, you wouldn't understand that battery charge has nothing to do with fuel economy on any journey. The battery will completely discharge in 2 mins going up a steep hill, but will recharge in 2 mins coasting down the same hill again.

You don't get anything for nothing. There is no cheating. The only source of power is petrol, but the power that would otherwise be wasted is captured an reused, and very quickly at that.

With all due respect, unkel, my real world sig is real world experience in a Hybrid. Don't diss it if you haven't tried it, and don't condescend by telling me my personal experience means nothing.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

You don't get anything for nothing. There is no cheating. The only source of power is petrol

That's it, fair and square. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen people claim magical results, like brake now and again and the battery will be charged so you won't use any fuel :eek:

JHMEG wrote:

With all due respect, unkel, my real world sig is real world experience in a Hybrid

I did not, and had no intention to call you a liar. I surely believe you got those results displayed on your on-board computer. A nice drive around rural Ireland is not the same as a commute into Dublin though where MPG figures need to be divided by 4 these days

JHMEG wrote:

don't condescend by telling me my personal experience means nothing.

See above and in my previous post. I had / have absolutely no reason whatsoever not to believe you / your experience / your mileage. If I came over condescending, I do apologise

Moving on, have you any comment to make on the real life fact that the Toyota Prius fuel consumption is worse than a similar size car with a modern diesel engine under similar driving circumstances?

Would you bet money that the batteries in a hybrid would live longer than a modern diesel engine?

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

That's it, fair and square. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen people claim magical results, like brake now and again and the battery will be charged so you won't use any fuel :eek:

Braking is evil! Kinetic energy gets turned into heat and is lost. Coasting, decelerating and going downhill will charge the battery.

unkel wrote:

I did not, and had no intention to call you a liar. I surely believe you got those results displayed on your on-board computer. A nice drive around rural Ireland is not the same as a commute into Dublin though where MPG figures need to be divided by 4 these days

MPG figures in the mid fifties are normal in Dublin stop-start commuting, thanks to the engine cutting out.

unkel wrote:

Moving on, have you any comment to make on the real life fact that the Toyota Prius fuel consumption is worse than a similar size car with a modern diesel engine under similar driving circumstances?

I can't comment as I haven't driven a Prius. If I drive the IMA with a heavy right foot like I drive the Integra, the MPG will suffer. Just like it suffers in any other car. You can't get good economy with a heavy right foot. I suspect the Prius owners who are getting bad economy in the Prius would get bad economy in any car.

unkel wrote:

Would you bet money that the batteries in a hybrid would live longer than a modern diesel engine?

I would have no reason to think that they wouldn't.

Biro

Just looking at the comments on the Mini... did they change the engine in the S from a supercharged one to a turbocharged one? Is there no SC one anymore so?

Owen

Nope, the supercharger wouldn't have been as efficient with either fuel consumption, or with emissions.

ned78

ned78 wrote:

Nope, the supercharger wouldn't have been as efficient with either fuel consumption, or with emissions.

Yep. Turbocharged engines are more effiecient than N/A engines.

The energy harnessed from the force of the exhaust used to blow air into the engine is basicly free.

E92

AFAIK the other reason why BMW switched to a turbo was that using a supercharger would have impacted more negatively on the MINIs Pedrestian Safety rating. There would not be a sufficent gap between the bonnet and the engine(if they were to use a supercharger), meaning that it would be more damaging to a pedrestian should a pedestrian hit the car.

Oh yeah BMW will sell you a 118d that averages 60.1 mpg on the combined cycle.

For comparison, lets compare the Civic IMA, old 118i, new 118i, old 118d and new 118d in that order.
The mpg figures for these models are as follows
Urban- 47.0, 28.0, 35.8, 36.7, 49.6
Extra Urban- 65.7, 49.6, 60.1, 62.8, 68.9
Combined- 57.6, 38.7, 47.9, 50.4, 60.1

So basically what we have is that the new 118i and old 118d are as efficient as the Civic IMA in out of town driving. The 118d is more efficient, and coincidently the 120d has exactly the same efficiency aas a Civic IMA. The reason why I included old vs new with the Beemers is to show 2 things. 1) That when you have a petrol that uses the efficient dynamics technology that BMW is talking about you have an engine that is as efficient as a normal diesel. 2) A diesel fitted with the same technology is more efficient than a Hybrid. And remember the 118d weighs 1395kg as opposed to the Civic IMAs 1190 kg(205 kg less, equivalent to taking away 3 average passengers), and that the civic IMA like all hybrids has special aerodynamic tweaks, special eco saving tyres, has a 1.3 litre as opposed to the BMWs 2 litre engine and it is very clear why hybrids are not as good as a diesel. Added to that is the fact that loads of Prius owners are moaning that they are only getting 44 mpg(from a car that claims to average 65.7).

Another thing to note is that if Hybrids are so wonderful, why then have the US EPA moved to change the way hybrids are assessed for fuel consumption over there? The reason is that owners of hybrids there had difficulty(their words not mine) matching the EPA ratings.

I'm not doubting JHMEGs ability to get that mpg figure but the truth is that his mpg returns are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to hybrids.

JHMEG

E92 wrote:

A diesel fitted with the same technology is more efficient than a Hybrid.

Hence the 2007 118d puts out more CO2 than the 2003 Civic IMA

E92 wrote:

why then have the US EPA moved to change the way hybrids are assessed for fuel consumption over there? The reason is that owners of hybrids there had difficulty(their words not mine) matching the EPA ratings.

Wrong. The EPA overhauled the ratings system because it was nearly 20 years old and did not reflect current conditions. The MPG figures for *all* cars went down as a result, hybrids included.

E92 wrote:

I'm not doubting JHMEGs ability to get that mpg figure but the truth is that his mpg returns are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to hybrids.

If you go looking for negatives about hybrids then that's *all* you'll find. Google some more. For every idiot who is getting crap MPG there are loads of people who are getting MPG like I am. But most of those don't feel the need to start a blog about it.

As I said before, people who are getting bad economy from a hybrid have bad driving habits and would get bad economy in any car. Plus, you have to read the manual. Leaving the car in gear while stopped prevents the engine from cutting out.. the biggest cause of poor city MPG. Not the car's fault the driver's a fool.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

Braking is evil! Kinetic energy gets turned into heat and is lost. Coasting, decelerating and going downhill will charge the battery

Absolutely. Capturing this otherwise wasted energy is the benefit of a hybrid!

JHMEG wrote:

people who are getting bad economy from a hybrid have bad driving habits and would get bad economy in any car

I can't fault that. You'd probably get 100MPG yourself from a modern diesel