To Grind Or Not To Grind.

cson

That is indeed the question. I had a heated debate today with one of my classmates about grinds. I think they're an aid to understanding a topic if you need them whereas she thinks they're just a moneyspinner and highlight the two-tiered nature of our education system.

For example in our school a certain teacher has not finished the course in a subject yet if you go to him for grinds he'll have it done. Its cynical that you have to pay to finish the course so to speak and that he may be holding back in class too.

I'm sure this has been debated to death already here but im interested to see what our year of leaving certs think.

JC 2K3

Money spinner, playing on students insecurities.

At the end of the day even a bad teacher will be able to explain a concept you don't understand if you ask, and you have to do the same amount of study, grinds or no grinds.

Assez Bien

total moneyspinner......hello i hav dat biology teacher....waste of time i may aswell teach myself d entire course cuz we only hav bout 60% of the course completed.....and we have not even consulted d biology book over the past 2yrs...also all definitions dis certain teacher has given us have not been correct, according to the syllubus anyway! Grrrr!!!

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

That is indeed the question. I had a heated debate today with one of my classmates about grinds. I think they're an aid to understanding a topic if you need them whereas she thinks they're just a moneyspinner and highlight the two-tiered nature of our education system.

Well for the most part there she's wrong, I got grinds in maths and physics and they helped enormously. Everyone I know who has gotten grinds in fact has said they were a huge help.

cson wrote:

For example in our school a certain teacher has not finished the course in a subject yet if you go to him for grinds he'll have it done. Its cynical that you have to pay to finish the course so to speak and that he may be holding back in class too.

Well I'm not in your class so I can't say for sure, but maybe, just maybe the reason you would pay him is because he is taking overtime to help you? You can't expect him to do it for free, very very few teachers would do that on even a once-off occasion. In the majority of cases it's not the teacher's fault that coursework falls behind schedule. As I said though I'm not in your class so I don't know what the story is in your case, maybe he is blatantly holding back the class, I wouldn't know.

cson

Peronally I'd advocate them in the case of a poor teacher, in Maths for example if the teacher cannot teach you to understand the concepts then it is going to be very difficult for you to do it yourself.

Its gone out of control though, all the grinds, revision books, revision courses, online grinds.......

How the hell did any leaving cert manage 10 or 15 years ago with feck all help

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

How the hell did any leaving cert manage 10 or 15 years ago with feck all help

They didn't have bebo and they like back then

Assez Bien

cson wrote:

Peronally I'd advocate them in the case of a poor teacher, in Maths for example if the teacher cannot teach you to understand the concepts then it is going to be very difficult for you to do it yourself.

Its gone out of control though, all the grinds, revision books, revision courses, online grinds.......

How the hell did any leaving cert manage 10 or 15 years ago with feck all help

Because it was bet into them!! They had no distractions i.e the internet r d mobile.....also they didn't hav the ridiculous points system so there was less pressure, it was all class based, those who had money were the ones who did the l.c. cuz they were the ones who cud pursue 3rd level education, Paul!

cson

OctavarIan wrote:

Well I'm not in your class so I can't say for sure, but maybe, just maybe the reason you would pay him is because he is taking overtime to help you? You can't expect him to do it for free, very very few teachers would do that on even a once-off occasion. In the majority of cases it's not the teacher's fault that coursework falls behind schedule. As I said though I'm not in your class so I don't know what the story is in your case, maybe he is blatantly holding back the class, I wouldn't know.

Consider the subject is Biology. Now the Dept. Of Education sets out a syllabus for each subject that can be comfortably completed in 2 years. Any other way just wouldn't make sense. Most subjects can be completed a few months in advance of the exams, sometimes before the mocks. You should not in truth be struggling to complete a course 3 weeks before the exam.

Fair enough it is overtime, but do you know any other job where the O/T rate is €20 - €25 an hour? If you do please tell me :rolleyes:

The fact that he may be holding back in class to encourage students to get grinds off him is disturbing to say the least.

Assez Bien, you know who i'm talking about.

Assez Bien

Fact! That certain teacher enrages me, also those who don't get grinds have to deal with his snide remarks about how u should drop levels n d like.....plainly because he knows its close to impossible 2 get a high grade without takin his grinds.

Also he is possibly the biggest miser i know as in when its his round in the pub, he'll leave......or so many sources have told me!

cson

I heard of a teacher making €20,000 in grinds year. Which is tax-free afaik.

The life of a teacher - €35 ish grand a year, €20k in grinds, off at 4/3 most days, summers off, weekends off, what a life!

Anyway on topic, the way I see it is that if you have money (i.e. if your parents are loaded) you can do whatever you want, the institute, grinds, revison books/courses whatever, should get ya whatever points you need.

Basic fact is the education system is the same as the health system, two tiered and it aint gonna change.

ZorbaTehZ

What I hate is when I see these knob-heads down at grind-centres - some of them have 5/6 classes ahead of them on a saturday - and knowing that there is a possibility that they may take the place of a student of equal (or possibly more) intelligence (who may not be as financially well off as them) because they can afford to take better quality classes and extra classes.

I openly despise these people (there's two in my class); they hardly bother doing any work in classes: "Ah sher I have grinds later". One of them has fluent Irish and lives in the gaeltacht and is taking Irish grinds !!! Her Irish is better than mine - and I got an A1 in the Mocks !!! The same person is getting grinds in all her subjects!!!

Also another worrying thing that stems from the fact these grind-schools employ absolutely incredibly good teachers is that, every other teacher is held up in comparison to these teachers, for example "Dr. Bob" is legendary around Galway City, and regularly I here people say things like "X teacher explained that better in grind class", which must have some kind of a detrimental effect on school teachers.

lal, rant over.:)

cson

Yup, heard all about "Dr Bob" for Hl Maths in Galway. Supposedly brilliant. Well he'd want to be good at maths to count all the money he's raking in from grinds.

OctavarIan

ZorbaTehZ wrote:

What I hate is when I see these knob-heads down at grind-centres - some of them have 5/6 classes ahead of them on a saturday - and knowing that there is a possibility that they may take the place of a student of equal (or possibly more) intelligence (who may not be as financially well off as them) because they can afford to take better quality classes and extra classes.

I openly despise these people (there's two in my class); they hardly bother doing any work in classes: "Ah sher I have grinds later". One of them has fluent Irish and lives in the gaeltacht and is taking Irish grinds !!! Her Irish is better than mine - and I got an A1 in the Mocks !!! The same person is getting grinds in all her subjects!!!

Also another worrying thing that stems from the fact these grind-schools employ absolutely incredibly good teachers is that, every other teacher is held up in comparison to these teachers, for example "Dr. Bob" is legendary around Galway City, and regularly I here people say things like "X teacher explained that better in grind class", which must have some kind of a detrimental effect on school teachers.

lal, rant over.:)

Money makes the world go round.

ZorbaTehZ

OctavarIan wrote:

Money makes the world go round.

No wai?

OctavarIan

ZorbaTehZ wrote:

No wai?

Lol of course not, I was joking. The world doesn't spin round, that's ridiculous.

JC 2K3

OctavarIan wrote:

Well for the most part there she's wrong, I got grinds in maths and physics and they helped enormously. Everyone I know who has gotten grinds in fact has said they were a huge help.

pfft, everyone who does grinds says they're a "great help". Perhaps they do help. But why? Better teacher? No. Better notes? No.

The reason they help is because the student is actively focused on the subject for a longer period of time than if they didn't do grinds, and since there's a teacher present, they can't let their minds wander like they might if they were simply studying on their own.

You can make all these bs arguments about some people having learning difficulties, some people having lower attention spans etc. But the cold, hard truth is that those who "need" grinds simply are too lazy to make a concentrated effort on learning something.

Let's take maths for an example. I am classed as an "above average" student. With maths everyone seems to think these types of classifications are to do with natural ability and are an inherent part of someone. This is a load of crap. As an "above average" student, does everything come to me easily? Not exactly. I learn the basics like everyone else, however, if I want to learn how to do harder questions I know I must make a concentrated effort on doing harder questions. When doing hard questions from a new topic in maths I used to often spend over an hour on a single question/part of a question trying many different things before I decided that ultimately I could not do the question and would need to ask the teacher what I was doing wrong, though I found I rarely reached this point as if you put a concentrated effort into a question you get the right answer most of the time. But do other, weaker students do this? No. They give up on hard questions after 20 minutes of getting nowhere with one method.

Grinds will spoonfeed them and improve their maths, but they're just after wasting a load of money because they're not willing to put in a decent effort on their own.

In other cases high achieving students take grinds because of the pressure on them and the fúcked up mentality that if they don't do grinds they're not going to do their best in the LC, again, load of bollocks.


All you need to learn is a book. The only purpose a teacher serves is to introduce you to different elements of the course and give you a basic understanding, as well as functioning as someone to answer any questions you might have. It's up to you to do the work.

Fobia

cson wrote:

Fair enough it is overtime, but do you know any other job where the O/T rate is €20 - €25 an hour? If you do please tell me :rolleyes:

...most decently paid skilled jobs?

9-5 Monday to Friday, if you're on 45k a year, that's about €20 an hour, I think. Overtime is usually a time and a half..?

OctavarIan

JC 2K3 wrote:

You can make all these bs arguments about some people having learning difficulties, some people having lower attention spans etc. But the cold, hard truth is that those who "need" grinds simply are too lazy to make a concentrated effort on learning something.

Grinds will spoonfeed them and improve their maths, but they're just after wasting a load of money because they're not willing to put in a decent effort on their own.

Well I actually CAN make that arguement because I did have lots of trouble with maths for the LC. I wasn't going to waste the teacher's time in class and set back the other 20-odd people. I got grinds because I just couldn't understand it on my own (and believe me I did try hard). For me it wasn't a case of laziness or not putting in effort. Your 'cold hard truth' is nothing more than some bull**** you're spewing off the top of your head, you won't get far in life with that narrowminded outlook buddy.

JC2K3 wrote:

All you need to learn is a book. The only purpose a teacher serves is to introduce you to different elements of the course and give you a basic understanding, as well as functioning as someone to answer any questions you might have. It's up to you to do the work.

You're sorted for college then. (serious)

Naikon

ZorbaTehZ wrote:

What I hate is when I see these knob-heads down at grind-centres - some of them have 5/6 classes ahead of them on a saturday - and knowing that there is a possibility that they may take the place of a student of equal (or possibly more) intelligence (who may not be as financially well off as them) because they can afford to take better quality classes and extra classes.

I openly despise these people (there's two in my class); they hardly bother doing any work in classes: "Ah sher I have grinds later". One of them has fluent Irish and lives in the gaeltacht and is taking Irish grinds !!! Her Irish is better than mine - and I got an A1 in the Mocks !!! The same person is getting grinds in all her subjects!!!

Also another worrying thing that stems from the fact these grind-schools employ absolutely incredibly good teachers is that, every other teacher is held up in comparison to these teachers, for example "Dr. Bob" is legendary around Galway City, and regularly I here people say things like "X teacher explained that better in grind class", which must have some kind of a detrimental effect on school teachers.

lal, rant over.:)

Dont stress about it......at least in third level courses money cant buy the best Lecturer:)
I wonder will grinds school students hack independant learning and not just "rote learn" or "memorise" the information but actually think about it?
It would be unfair to paint everyone in a grinds school to be like this, but from people I know personally.....this observation seems justified.

cson

Fobia wrote:

...most decently paid skilled jobs?

9-5 Monday to Friday, if you're on 45k a year, that's about €20 an hour, I think. Overtime is usually a time and a half..?

Meh, their overtime is taxed. And €20 is the lower end of the scale. I've heard rates of €60 from some of my friends that live inside the pale.

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

Meh, their overtime is taxed. And €20 is the lower end of the scale. I've heard rates of €60 from some of my friends that live inside the pale.

Who the hell pays €60 an hour :eek:

Steve01

JC 2K3 wrote:

You can make all these bs arguments about some people having learning difficulties, some people having lower attention spans etc. But the cold, hard truth is that those who "need" grinds simply are too lazy to make a concentrated effort on learning something.

Tá an fírinne searbh! But its so very true. I have friends who are getting grinds in at least 4 out of 6 honours subjects. And why bother with them? Not just because they're lazy but because they have this backwards notion that if they give some intelligent person enough money somehow the work will be done. When will people learn...

cson

OctavarIan wrote:

Who the hell pays €60 an hour :eek:

You'd be surprised how many do. I know of a guy whose family spent the guts of €3000 on Maths grinds for him......in order for him to get a C3 at Ordinary. That definitely comes under JC 2K3's point of laziness. Three ****ing grand!

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

You'd be surprised how many do. I know of a guy whose family spent the guts of €3000 on Maths grinds for him......in order for him to get a C3 at Ordinary. That definitely comes under JC 2K3's point of laziness. Three ****ing grand!

€3000 for a C3 in ORDINARY maths? I'm actually lost for words lol

cson

Thats laziness for ya.

JC 2K3

OctavarIan wrote:

Well I actually CAN make that arguement because I did have lots of trouble with maths for the LC. I wasn't going to waste the teacher's time in class and set back the other 20-odd people. I got grinds because I just couldn't understand it on my own (and believe me I did try hard). For me it wasn't a case of laziness or not putting in effort. Your 'cold hard truth' is nothing more than some bull**** you're spewing off the top of your head, you won't get far in life with that narrowminded outlook buddy.

I'm sorry, but what could your grinds teacher have possibly told you that gave you an epiphany regarding understanding maths?

I'm not denying your grinds helped you. But I mean the book explains everything(don't use the "the book was shíte" argument, apart from the fact that you could have gotten a better book, these days you can use the internet to get hundreds of explanations of mathematical concpets, and even ask for help and have it given by helpful people for free like this forum)), and the odd question when something was unclear wouldn't have held your whole class back.

Grinds, in most cases these days, especially considering our generation has the internet, are unecessary and a waste of money IMO.

ZorbaTehZ

Typical example in Galway (I won't name the place but I'm sure you can guess)

Easter Week:
7 day English Course E290 (for a 1.5 hour class a day)
Thats E27.61 an hour.

35 people in the classroom.
Thats E966 an hour.
Or E10k+ plus a week.

Runs at least 3 of these in the week (2 weeks in easter)
Thats E60k+

WTFPWNED? Thats only the English courses !!! They run maths, biology, history, physics etc.!!!

WTFPWNED? Thats only 2 weeks in the bloody year!!!

EDIT:Typo

OctavarIan

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm sorry, but what could your grinds teacher have possibly told you that gave you an epiphany regarding understanding maths?

I'm not denying your grinds helped you. But I mean the book explains everything(don't use the "the book was shíte" argument, apart from the fact that you could have gotten a better book, these days you can use the internet to get hundreds of explanations of mathematical concpets, and even ask for help and have it given by helpful people for free like this forum)), and the odd question when something was unclear wouldn't have held your whole class back.

Grinds, in most cases these days, especially considering our generation has the internet, are unecessary and a waste of money IMO.

He was able to go through it step by step at my own pace. I guess I was lucky in that I wasn't extorted price-wise and I got to choose what areas to focus on. Books or text on a screen can never substitute for having someone next to you who can help. I'll agree a lot of grinds are a waste of money (€3000 for ordinary maths!!) but they're aren't unnecessary. Now, places like the institute and that €50 english seminar day, they're just money making schemes alright.

lilmizzme

I believe that if the individual feels they need grinds, then they should go ahead and get them....I hate, however, the attitude that so many in my year have "Oh Im not going to bother in this class, I'll do X topic in grinds later anyway" or "Im not doing homework for X teacher, Ive already got enough grinds homework as it is" It's so distracting trying to listen in a class where there's a group of girls down the back having a chat because either way, Mammy and Daddy will fix everything with classes in the Institute...:mad:

I do feel many grinds school, such as the Institute, play on student's fear, and exploit their panic to make money...I have gone to a grind in Maths only to realise after 2 or 3 weeks that I din't actually need them as much as I thought...

ZorbaTehZ

lilmizzme wrote:

I believe that if the individual feels they need grinds, then they should go ahead and get them....I hate, however, the attitude that so many in my year have "Oh Im not going to bother in this class, I'll do X topic in grinds later anyway" or "Im not doing homework for X teacher, Ive already got enough grinds homework as it is" It's so distracting trying to listen in a class where there's a group of girls down the back having a chat because either way, Mammy and Daddy will fix everything with classes in the Institute...:mad:

Thanks.
Nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

lilmizzme

And whoever said it earlier about those better off are taking places in college of people who can't afford the grinds are spot on...stupid grinds schools are messing up the whole points system....

Point of Information: 70% of Institute students drop out of college in their first year....daddy's money can't help you in Uni it seems....