To Grind Or Not To Grind.

fuinneamh

The only reason you should need grinds is if you can't understand a concept and the teacher is failing miserably to do so. Although i do think that any concept can be explained by the resident experts here on boards, so there shouldn't be any need for grinds. in short the leaving cert is a graph with work and results on the axis' and a straight line through the origin. So if you don't do well your just being lazy.

shazzyshaz

ZorbaTehZ wrote:

Typical example in Galway (I won't name the place but I'm sure you can guess)

Easter Week:
7 day English Course E290 (for a 1.5 hour class a day)
Thats E27.61 an hour.

35 people in the classroom.
Thats E966 an hour.
Or E10k+ plus a week.

Runs at least 3 of these in the week (2 weeks in easter)
Thats E60k+

WTFPWNED? Thats only the English courses !!! They run maths, biology, history, physics etc.!!!

WTFPWNED? Thats only 2 weeks in the bloody year!!!

EDIT:Typo

HAHA thats my school!!! bloody good school too. -those easter courses are a little overpriced though! but the termtime fees- hell its worth it!

shazzyshaz

lilmizzme wrote:

And whoever said it earlier about those better off are taking places in college of people who can't afford the grinds are spot on...stupid grinds schools are messing up the whole points system....

Point of Information: 70% of Institute students drop out of college in their first year....daddy's money can't help you in Uni it seems....

ahem.(though i dont go to the tute)

OctavarIan

fuinneamh wrote:

So if you don't do well your just being lazy.

That's quite frankly, bull****. It's a pity schools don't teach people to not be narrow-minded snobs.

cocoa

Bah, let them take grinds if they wish to take grinds. What do you care? You can still do your work and get your good marks just the same as if they weren't getting grinds. The only difference is that, hypothetically if we assume their marks are going up due to grinds, your marks are devalued. So work harder. I'm serious, the Leaving Cert is an entirely doable exam with nothing that requires extraordinary abilities, rote learning for the most part will suffice. There is nothing stopping you surpassing the performance of grinds students, so just do it yourself.

I have never had the misfortune to attend grinds so I won't deny that they can help. But I will say that anything achievable in grinds is also achievable on your own and grinds will only be truly effective if the students focuses and makes sure to use the time wisely and resolve their problems within the grind time. Grinds will have very little or no effect if the student is passive.

One thing I will say in defence of grinds (one to one grinds) is that they can cut back on the time needed to solve something. If, for example, the student does some work on their own and hits a problem they can either struggle with it for an hour and maybe get it out (which admittedly would be very encouraging and gratifying) or they can save that thought and have the grinder go through it and fix the problem in a shorter space of time. To me, that's the only difference.

unnameduser

ffs...

my opinion on this is quite simple.

If one can get benefit out of grinds and improve their grades well i see no problem. what is wrong with some extra help... The fact that the person makes money from this does not matter. YES the school / teacher should be able to educate the pupil but if this is not happening then the pupil must get outside help.;

Some one holding up a class to ensure that students attend his / her grind... well, that is out of order.

If a teacher can make 20k a year extra out of grinds i say fair play to them. They give grinds cause students need them. For those of you who complain about the money that teachers / grind schools make then finish the leaving cert and become a teacher or open a grind school.

lilmizzme

You go on to a grinds thread where people are openly complaining about grinds, then you post a grinds website as your signature....are you openly looking for an argument???

unnameduser

signature removed to keep the peace. But lilmizzme if you took the time to have a look at it, the link had nothing to do with grinds.. it was about software that showed mandatory experiments for biology for LC students.

cson

I think you'll find that a lot of people would have a problem with a teacher making €20K a year tax free. In no other job can you get upwards (and very upwards sometimes) of €20 an hour "overtime" and not have to pay a cent tax on it. *(Afaik, grinds are tax free).

Its a sad reflection on an individual or indeed their parents if they feel they need to go to a grind school a la Yeats, The Institute etc in order to obtain a 'good' leaving cert.

You could get 9 A1s in the leaving, will it make you a good doctor? Who knows? You could have the worst social skills in the world. And lets be honest those grind schools extra-curricular activities aren't how shall I say, prevalent in those schools.

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

You could get 9 A1s in the leaving, will it make you a good doctor? Who knows? You could have the worst social skills in the world.

Don't they have an aptitude test for LC students wanting to go into medicine now?

cson

unnameduser wrote:

it was about software that showed mandatory experiments for biology for LC students.

I'll presume its not free.

Tamato, Tomatoe, you're charging for biology 'software', you're obviously not doing it for the good of your health or god forbid to help leaving cert students. You're doing because its a way of making money, you play on the insecurities of students.

It's not a service you're offering, its a product. A product that will make you money.

cson

OctavarIan wrote:

Don't they have an aptitude test for LC students wanting to go into medicine now?

No this year, straight up 600 pointers will get into it. Afaik next year the aptitude test and interview will come into it from a random selection of applicants who get 450 points. I think UL and RCSI are providing it but im not 100% sure about it.

unnameduser

cson wrote:

I'll presume its not free.

Tamato, Tomatoe, you're charging for biology 'software', you're obviously not doing it for the good of your health or god forbid to help leaving cert students. You're doing because its a way of making money, you play on the insecurities of students.

It's not a service you're offering, its a product. A product that will make you money.

it is a revision product. just like any rapid revision, revise wise, or less stress more success product. ah they all playing on the insecurities of students or just providing a good product

cson

unnameduser wrote:

it is a revision product. just like any rapid revision, revise wise, or less stress more success product. ah they all playing on the insecurities of students or just providing a good product

Meh, you're still making money off the backs of the student populace so I wouldn't get high and mighty by saying "that link wasn't for grinds, it wasfor biology experiments".

Are less stress/revisewise/rapid revision there to benefit the student populace? No they're there to make a profit and so are you.

unnameduser

I will finish by saying this. These products are out there. Yes students are the target audience. Its all about supply and demand. If you want them, they can be bought. If you dont, then leave them on the shelf.

Anyway, each to their own opinion.

Best of luck in your exams.

SamHamilton

What I hate is when I see these knob-heads down at grind-centres - some of them have 5/6 classes ahead of them on a saturday - and knowing that there is a possibility that they may take the place of a student of equal (or possibly more) intelligence (who may not be as financially well off as them) because they can afford to take better quality classes and extra classes.

I was so happy when I met a few of my friends who go to private schools after my junior cert exams. They spent thousands on three years of spoon-feeding and grinds and I went to a school that doesn't teach physics, chemistry, applied maths, history, etc. and is full of 'cultchies' or so my 'friends' put it and I got all A's in all higher level subjects. I'm not the gloating kind and I don't think getting all A's or getting 600 points is better than 400 points or whatever, but I was so satisfied at their surprise:p ! They actually couldn't believe how someone in the gaeltacht could achieve it.

Money will never be a substitute for decent, hardworking people. While that may be slightly utopian but I believe it.:D

Darren1o1

I sometimes do teach people maths who are struggling (mainly family and friends) and from what i have seen of the students needing help, is that it is not always their fault and it is not always laziness. Alot of the students who i have helped have had problems with unstanding "why?" more than anything. It some classrooms (as was the case when i did leaving cert) teachers just simply threw infomation at students rather than explaining. I am currently finishing a degree in engineering currently and the applied nature of the mathematics tends to suit students who cannot understand in classes as such.

Then also there are the students who are lazy and who only wake up in easter of leaving cert and say "F**k".

In a way it is a two tiered system for those who can't learn within the standard curriculum must pay for a second crack at learning. Alot of the people i have helped would not have been able to afford grinds and would have failed as a result. But also it has alot to do with the type of student and teacher when learning a subject. Some teaching types just do not work for certain students and thats what it comes down to.

SamHamilton

Getting back onto topic...

They brought a psychologist into our school for three days to teach us how to study more effectively. We had something similar to this for a week earlier in the year and I just thought if we spent the hours we're spending (wasting in my opinion) learning how to study (I believe every one has their own methods anyway) studying we would get so much more done.

Also, the whole grinds thing...I know someone who travels for 40 mins to grinds and 40 mins back. If she spent that 80 mins studying, working at the subject she'd most likely do just as well.

Darren1o1

SamHamilton wrote:

Getting back onto topic...

They brought a psychologist into our school for three days to teach us how to study more effectively. We had something similar to this for a week earlier in the year and I just thought if we spent the hours we're spending (wasting in my opinion) learning how to study (I believe every one has their own methods anyway) studying we would get so much more done.

Also, the whole grinds thing...I know someone who travels for 40 mins to grinds and 40 mins back. If she spent that 80 mins studying, working at the subject she'd most likely do just as well.

I did the same at leaving cert. I felt it did not help me at all and was a complete waste of time and money. It was not until second year at uni that i developed a way which was best for me. It takes time to understand the methods which suit you best.

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

Are less stress/revisewise/rapid revision there to benefit the student populace? No they're there to make a profit

They're there to do both really. Obviously they have to make a profit, that's what business and the real world is about. However they also help students, I've seen too much evidence of that to think otherwise.

For instance take business studies. You could trawl through the book looking for the definitions, or you could buy a little book that has them all in it for a price that doesn't hurt your wallet. The amount of time you'd save with the little definitions book is worth the money imo.

Haven't a Clue

OctavarIan wrote:

They're there to do both really. Obviously they have to make a profit, that's what business and the real world is about. However they also help students, I've seen too much evidence of that to think otherwise.

For instance take business studies. You could trawl through the book looking for the definitions, or you could buy a little book that has them all in it for a price that doesn't hurt your wallet. The amount of time you'd save with the little definitions book is worth the money imo.

Yeah, the revise wise book for business is the business. Before, I didn't really know how the hell I was meant to study business. Now, I've got a clear mind as to what I've to do, I have the points I'd need right in front of me and I'm flying at it.

Same goes for history. We're being constantly told that you should have 8/9 strong points in your essays. With less stress more success, they've outlined these points for you.

Of course these companies are out to make a profit from these books, what sort of a business would they be if the didn't? But it doesn't mean that they aren't helping students at the same time...

JC 2K3

OctavarIan wrote:

For instance take business studies. You could trawl through the book looking for the definitions, or you could buy a little book that has them all in it for a price that doesn't hurt your wallet. The amount of time you'd save with the little definitions book is worth the money imo.

Who do you think is going to do better, the student who writes down the definitions in each chapter after studying that chapter and gradually builds up a notebook of definitions or the student who's too lazy to bother doing that and buys a book of defintions?

Saving time my ass. You do have to study the whole chapters anyway you know.

JC 2K3

lilmizzme wrote:

And whoever said it earlier about those better off are taking places in college of people who can't afford the grinds are spot on...stupid grinds schools are messing up the whole points system....

Point of Information: 70% of Institute students drop out of college in their first year....daddy's money can't help you in Uni it seems....

Is that an actual stat or one you made up?

cocoa wrote:

One thing I will say in defence of grinds (one to one grinds) is that they can cut back on the time needed to solve something. If, for example, the student does some work on their own and hits a problem they can either struggle with it for an hour and maybe get it out (which admittedly would be very encouraging and gratifying) or they can save that thought and have the grinder go through it and fix the problem in a shorter space of time. To me, that's the only difference.

That's of negligible signficance in the 21st century. If google can't help you, forums like this one will. Particularly maths advice given here is on par with anything a grinds teacher could teach, the response time is quite fast, and it's free.

OctavarIan

JC 2K3 wrote:

Who do you think is going to do better, the student who writes down the definitions in each chapter after studying that chapter and gradually builds up a notebook of definitions or the student who buys a book of defintions?

Saving time my ass. You do have to study the whole chapters anyway you know.

I think the student who buys the book would be at an advantage. You get enough practice writing out definitions by doing exam questions.

Yes saving time. I know you have to study the chapters anyway, I wouldn't recommend someone not to, but having everything put together in one section and easily accessible is invaluable. For learning the course the cirriculum books are the way to go, but for revision they're impractical and slow.

JC 2K3 wrote:

Particularly maths advice given here is on par with anything a grinds teacher could teach, the response time is quite fast, and it's free.

It's automatically not on a par because it's not face to face in person, thus it's slower and more difficult to teach someone the concepts.

Darren1o1

JC 2K3 wrote:

Who do you think is going to do better, the student who writes down the definitions in each chapter after studying that chapter and gradually builds up a notebook of definitions or the student who's too lazy to bother doing that and buys a book of defintions?

Saving time my ass. You do have to study the whole chapters anyway you know.

These "less stress books" simplifies some points down for some students who can't handle alot of information and who need focus on the relevant points. It gives you the critical information at brass tax level.

Face it, most of us will never reach straight A level. Those are the people who can assimilate the masses of information on these books and see what is critical themselves and therefore have a deep understanding of the subject.

JC 2K3

@OctavarIan
But if you're writing out the definitions in a notebook you've essentially written the book you would have wasted money on otherwise. And one learns things by writing them out. Sure you'd be writing them out in your notes anyway, it takes 2 minutes extra at the end of a studying a chapter to write them out in a notebook.

Revising from your own notes, your own concisely written version of the course is far better than revising from someone else's concisely written version of the course.

Darren1o1

JC 2K3 wrote:

Particularly maths advice given here is on par with anything a grinds teacher could teach, the response time is quite fast, and it's free.

The reason why maths advice on these forums are good is more often than not you are getting it from people who have an interest in and/or are teaching the subject and therefore are in a postion to comment. Why else would someone be in say a maths forum giving advice.

If you happen to get a good teacher or person giving grinds you get someone who has time to do examples with you which ensures your knowledge. The limitation of boards like this is that order to ask the question, you need to be able to ask it. By this i mean to ask a question on differentiation you need to know the basics about it first. The grinds are more often than not for students of limited capacity.

cocoa

JC 2K3 wrote:

That's of negligible signficance in the 21st century. If google can't help you, forums like this one will. Particularly maths advice given here is on par with anything a grinds teacher could teach, the response time is quite fast, and it's free.

sure, Q and A on the net can work just fine for some people but I know that for me personally and to a bigger extent for other people, it's a hell of a lot easier to understand when someone writes it down in front of you and is explaining it verbally at the same time than text on the screen. You can get there from the screen, but the physical presence is easier.

JC 2K3 wrote:

Who do you think is going to do better, the student who writes down the definitions in each chapter after studying that chapter and gradually builds up a notebook of definitions or the student who's too lazy to bother doing that and buys a book of defintions?

Saving time my ass. You do have to study the whole chapters anyway you know.

Ermm, in regards to business I would disagree but business is just weird in general anyway. Call me crazy and arrogant but I could quite comfortably get a B1 in business purely by having a quick read of the book the night beforehand. The condensed version has all I personally would need and would make things faster, I estimate it would save me about two hours over the course of 5 weeks. Unless the book costs over €40 then I consider it a sound investment.

I quit business at the start of sixth year but while I did it I really did find it a bit strange as a subject and ironically it is a subject where the "revision business" works.

Darren1o1

JC 2K3 wrote:

But if you're writing out the definitions in a notebook you've essentially written the book you would have wasted money on otherwise. And one learns things by writing them out. Sure you'd be writing them out in your notes anyway, it takes 2 minutes extra at the end of a studying a chapter to write them out in a notebook.

Revising from your own notes, your own concisely written version of the course is far better than revising from someone else's concisely written version of the course.

I have said this!! My point is some people cannot make these notes. They do not know what is the most relevant information and therefore need guidance, that is what these aim to do.

I am in university and i always study from my own notes. However other students who would student from my notes do not have as much knowledge or understanding of the subject and are looking to get a reasonable mark. Therefore they borrow someone notes i.e. mine and get an understanding of the crical points and can therefore pass. Whereas the person making the notes has a deeper understanding and can go that little further

JC 2K3

Darren1o1 wrote:

The reason why maths advice on these forums are good is more often than not you are getting it from people who have an interest in and/or are teaching the subject and therefore are in a postion to comment. Why else would someone be in say a maths forum giving advice.

What's your point?

My point was maths advice is available for free on the internet, why pay someone for it?