To Grind Or Not To Grind.

JC 2K3

I always speak in idealistic terms. Like I know how the real world functions. I know all the usual clichés like "money makes the world go round" and all that crap. But just because that's the way it is doesn't make it right.

Haven't a Clue

cson wrote:

I might be a tad radical, but I'm for the Dept Of Education becoming a communist entity.

Try Cuba. I donnae think Mary Hannifin's gonna be turning into any Castro or Stalin any time soon tbh...

cson

c0rk3r wrote:

There goes all your credibility out the window.

Oh I'm shocked now that you think I have no credibility. What oh what shall I do?

If the leaving cert cycle was like communism, with no grinds, no revision books or any of that **** it would sort the men from the boys. We'd find out who the real 600 pointers were.

brianthebard

Oh please cson you're talking out your ass, the leaving cert is a memory test and nothing more, if you can't realise that then you shouldn't be doing it.

genericgoon

In soviet russia book read you

md99

brianthebard wrote:

Oh please cson you're talking out your ass, the leaving cert is a memory test and nothing more, if you can't realise that then you shouldn't be doing it.

bull... there is skill/talent in many LC subjects, certain subjects like Business, Biology etc may be memory work.... the same can't be said about English, the languages, Maths..... skill involved, constant swatting over the books will never get you As in these unless you've got it in you to start with.

I only have two real 'memory' subjects, and one of them (economics) I feel guilty calling one because there's so much more to it than that. I don't believe that just anyone intelligent could get to the top of it.... There is something you need to naturally have for it, and it's not just good business sense....

my other subjects involve little in the line of 'memory' and more in the line of practice!

cson

brianthebard wrote:

Oh please cson you're talking out your ass, the leaving cert is a memory test and nothing more, if you can't realise that then you shouldn't be doing it.

The thread isn't about whether the LC is a memory test. (Which incidently is true, theres fcuk all subjects that actually require you to understand the concepts, maybe HL Maths)

Its about the grind/ grind school culture which is becoming all too prevalent in Ireland today. It sidelines those who don't have the resources for all these extra's and denies college places to those who actually deserve them.

Im of the opinion that the Leaving Cert can be effectively bought these days.

EDIT: On further thinking about the 'memory test' theory im inclined to agree with md99 in that while there are subjects that have bundles of rote learning in them, there are others that require hard work and bit of natural ability to succeed in.

cson

md99 wrote:

bull... there is skill/talent in many LC subjects, certain subjects like Business, Biology etc may be memory work.... the same can't be said about English, the languages, Maths..... skill involved

Well said.

md99

cson wrote:

Im of the opinion that the Leaving Cert can be effectively bought these days.

Everything can be bought, check out a few of the foreign nationals in Trinity College....

*predicts controversy*

cson

I think its a bit further down the road, Leeson St is what you're getting at. Coincedently the Institute is located there too...........

brianthebard

md99 wrote:

bull... there is skill/talent in many LC subjects, certain subjects like Business, Biology etc may be memory work.... the same can't be said about English, the languages, Maths..... skill involved, constant swatting over the books will never get you As in these unless you've got it in you to start with.

I only have two real 'memory' subjects, and one of them (economics) I feel guilty calling one because there's so much more to it than that. I don't believe that just anyone intelligent could get to the top of it.... There is something you need to naturally have for it, and it's not just good business sense....

my other subjects involve little in the line of 'memory' and more in the line of practice!

Lolz the only person I know who got an A in Honours Maths told me he noticed that all that changed from year to year were the numbers, so he memorised how to do them. People like to think that you have to be good at English to do well in the leaving, and speaking as someone who is good at English, that's bull. I learnt everything off the way I needed to. Down to the essay. As for the languages, you learn off the oral, you learn off the words and interpret a question, how is that not a memory test? Anyone who's gotten marks over 500 will tell you that the LC is a memory test.

JC 2K3

Well if you're smart there's not much learning off involved in maths.

At the end of the day the LC can be a memory test, but it is possible to get high points due to understanding/"natural" intelligence

For example, out of the 6 subjects I'm counting, I'd only consider Chemistry and History to be pure memory tests. There are elements of rote learning in Physics also, but there is at least some maths and understanding required for it. But Maths, Applied Maths and Irish I am not rote learning anything for and don't need to.

At the end of the day what is classed as a memory test though? Are most college exams not memory tests also?

Naikon

^True, I realised this halfway through fifth year.
The Media hype about the LC is ridiculous to say the least and the stories about the "Big bad LC" gets to me, along with those Institute people that believe 600 points gives them an excuse to feel superior.
One of these people I know on a personal level before leaving my school.
I know people who got 200 points in the LC and are now finishing up 1.1 degrees whereas the "high achievers" either dropped out or wasted years pf their lives needlessly repeating cos they found things "unstructured" for example.

I would like to think I have a great aptitude for my subjects, but in reality they arent fully indicative of your actual ability, just how much information you can retain, look at Hons. physics, 17% can go for definitions alone and the maths is hardly taxing in comparison to say Third level physics.
The same can be said for nearly all subjects.

c0rk3r

Come on cson this isnt about whether to grind or not to grind its a stage you;ve created to have a go at grind students. You;ve made it prefectly clear where you stand on the issue. Why is that? Bitterness, resentment, jealousy, envy. You shroud the entire post around equality. We'll as you know we dont live in an equal society. We are not equal. Is that what you want to hear? You come across as an angsty lefty liberal (back to brussels) teenager. To even suggest conversion to communism is hysterical. If you believe you can buy the leaving cert. why not do it yourself?

Oh woe is me that guy over there is driving a 12,000euro volkswagen GTI turbo whos insurance must cost 3grand alone. Lifes not fair, why must i be forced to walk and use public transport. Its so not fair. Eventually you'll just have to come to terms with it, accept it and move on. We live in mutli-tier society. Why not move to a communist state. I hear things are just swell there. heaven even

TO GRIND

(Grind School) Your essentially paying for the best teachers out there. The school head hunt the brightest most apt for the job. Theres no denying it. The teachers themselves are highly charismatic, Motivated, enthusiastic, dedicated and caring. You get your moneys worth. No doubt about it.

Conise notes. Removing all the associated jargon thats just not needed. Everything is orientated around exams thus so are the notes to produce maximum results.

The schools themselves are a haven to study in. The atomsphere is of friendly competition. Theres is zero distribution. Everyone is there to do there best.

High percentage of Grind school pupils go on to university. Which is the aim.

(Grinds 1 on 1) You feel your falling behind in a subject and need extra attention or care. Or you feel your under preforming.

NOT TO GRIND

You feel theres no need. Your prefectly ready for the exams. So fair enough. thats great just focus on your own exams and leave it at that. Dont worry about anyone else.

You get the same crap every year. People view these establishments as elitist and snobby and resent them for it. Others a place to attain higher grades getting the course they want. Then the people who couldnt care less and just get on with life. Try the latter. Makes life alot easier

Naikon

c0rk3r wrote:

• The schools themselves are a haven to study in. The atmosphere is of friendly competition. Theres is zero distribution. Everyone is there to do there best.

Friendly competition, are you serious?
Competition by its very nature is hostilic.
More should be done to emphasise collaboration and team working, which the LC cycle fails horribly at.

brianthebard

JC 2K3 wrote:

At the end of the day what is classed as a memory test though? Are most college exams not memory tests also?

To an extent: its not as bad as the LC but can do a lot of preparation. I prefer not to and go into an exam with a general idea that can be changed to suit a question. I can't say what its like for science exams though.

cson

c0rk3r wrote:

Come on cson this isnt about whether to grind or not to grind its a stage you;ve created to have a go at grind students. You;ve made it prefectly clear where you stand on the issue. Why is that? Bitterness, resentment, jealousy, envy. You shroud the entire post around equality.

In your opinion obviously. I won't begrudge you it, a lot of people died so this country could be free and you could have your opinion.

c0rk3r wrote:

We'll as you know we dont live in an equal society. We are not equal. Is that what you want to hear?

As a matter of fact it is. Why not change it?

c0rk3r wrote:

You come across as an angsty lefty liberal (back to brussels) teenager. To even suggest conversion to communism is hysterical. If you believe you can buy the leaving cert. why not do it yourself?

Now who's using this thread to have a go at someone? If you notice also that I started that post with "It may be a bit radical" as regards communism, that I wasn't being wholly serious.

Secondly, did you consider I might not have the money to buy my leaving cert? That I could work hard for 2 years to get my first choice in College only to miss it because grind school students inflated the points? I don't 'hate the player' as it would be, I 'hate the game', i.e. this thread is not a vehicle for an attack on grind school students as you have implied.

c0rk3r wrote:

Oh woe is me that guy over there is driving a 12,000euro volkswagen GTI turbo whos insurance must cost 3grand alone. Lifes not fair, why must i be forced to walk and use public transport. Its so not fair. Eventually you'll just have to come to terms with it, accept it and move on. We live in mutli-tier society. Why not move to a communist state. I hear things are just swell there. heaven even

Firstly, there is a motor forum if you want to bitch about premium prices, this thread is located in the 'Leaving Cert' forum in case you haven't noticed.

Secondly, I suggested that the educational system would benefit from a communist outlook. And I wasn't being altogether too serious.

c0rk3r wrote:

TO GRIND

(Grind School) Your essentially paying for the best teachers out there. The school head hunt the brightest most apt for the job. Theres no denying it. The teachers themselves are highly charismatic, Motivated, enthusiastic, dedicated and caring. You get your moneys worth. No doubt about it.

Conise notes. Removing all the associated jargon thats just not needed. Everything is orientated around exams thus so are the notes to produce maximum results.

The schools themselves are a haven to study in. The atomsphere is of friendly competition. Theres is zero distribution. Everyone is there to do there best.

High percentage of Grind school pupils go on to university. Which is the aim.

(Grinds 1 on 1) You feel your falling behind in a subject and need extra attention or care. Or you feel your under preforming.

What If I don't have the money to go to a grind school? Should I be denied a college place because of it?

c0rk3r wrote:

NOT TO GRIND

You feel theres no need. Your prefectly ready for the exams. So fair enough. thats great just focus on your own exams and leave it at that. Dont worry about anyone else.

Which would be fine if every leaving certificate student did that.

c0rk3r wrote:

You get the same crap every year. People view these establishments as elitist and snobby and resent them for it.

Perhaps because they are? My parents or myself even don't have the luxuary of a spare €5 -20 grand lying around. And people resent them because they charge exhorbant fees, they headhunt the best teachers which the taxpayer of all people pay for them and they generally inflate grades leaving public school students at a distinct disadvantage.

c0rk3r wrote:

Others a place to attain higher grades getting the course they want. Then the people who couldnt care less and just get on with life. Try the latter. Makes life alot easier

It'll continue the same way if people share your outlook. Me, I'd like to change things.

When I become taoiseach.....:p

md99

brianthebard wrote:

Lolz the only person I know who got an A in Honours Maths told me he noticed that all that changed from year to year were the numbers, so he memorised how to do them. People like to think that you have to be good at English to do well in the leaving, and speaking as someone who is good at English, that's bull. I learnt everything off the way I needed to. Down to the essay. As for the languages, you learn off the oral, you learn off the words and interpret a question, how is that not a memory test? Anyone who's gotten marks over 500 will tell you that the LC is a memory test.

You seem to have a VERY bleak outlook... I got 500 myself in the pres and I intend to get more again for the real thing, and how did I do well in English? Not by cramming/swatting, by being good at English and becoming familiar with the texts, which wasn't hard. Memory work????? Usually the correctors can spot learnt off material a mile off, it's your own views they want to hear, not some regurgitated notes which is absolutely simple to recognise anyway.

For my French and Irish orals I crammed nothing, I actually just spoke it myself from how I'm able to, where's the cramming there? The oral examiners do NOT give out As for people who cram what's written in their copy before going in... they give them for fluency.... They can spot you a mile off if this is what you've done, and sure many students do it but these students don't get As either...

Maths is all practice, you cram a few formulae but that's about it.... Unless you're like, autistic, it's practice and not memorising the exact questions. I know MANY people who got an A in HL maths, as opposed to your one guy, and none of them share his views on how 'all that changes is the numbers'...Do you not think that if this was the case, there would be a few more As and Bs?

Anyone who's gotten marks over 500 will tell you that the LC is a memory test.

I know a LOT, and NONE of them think this.

JC is right, if you are naturally intelligent the LC can be a lot easier for you once you put in the work... That said, it would take someone VERY special to be able to memorise everything and get As....

EDIT: You must not know many people, if you only know one who got an A in honours maths... I mean, little under 20% of takers get As in it every year you realise this....

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

Firstly, there is a motor forum if you want to bitch about premium prices, this thread is located in the 'Leaving Cert' forum in case you haven't noticed.

He was using the car as an example to make a point actually.

cson wrote:

What If I don't have the money to go to a grind school? Should I be denied a college place because of it?

No you shouldn't. Grinds students don't dramatically up the points needed to get into college. Look at the points fluctuation for example, they're not jumping up 50 points every year. If grinds students inflate points every year sure there'd be few courses under 500!Hell, in my college Arts (the most popular course) went down by 30 points, as did my own. At the most radical a courses points would go up by 10 as a direct result of grinds students, and an extra 10 points is within anyone's reach.

cson wrote:

It'll continue the same way if people share your outlook. Me, I'd like to change things.

When I become taoiseach.....:p

Just like to ask, how WOULD you change things? If it was that easy it would have been done by now.

cson

OctavarIan wrote:

Just like to ask, how WOULD you change things?

I thought I've gone through this already? For the second time, I would;
> Change the system so that each student is on an equal footing and wealth will make absolutely no difference.

> Change the grind school culture where the emphasis is on what you need for the exam, not the understanding of a subject

> Dispense with much of the rote learning aspects of the leaving cert, and make it more practical, more accessible to students

OctavarIan wrote:

If it was that easy it would have been done by now.?

Its the likes of this narrow minded answer that will leave the system the way it is. Call me idealistic or whatever and I I'll agree with you, but I want to things to change in the future. For the better.

EDIT: I can't recall saying it would be easy also.

Nehpets

It would be a massive change to make to change the current leaving cert. and in Ireland massive changes don't take place that often

SamHamilton

In my view, if you want a course bad enough, you'll get it. For my Christmas tests I had no goal, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I did alright, I got something around the 460 mark and I got a D in Art.

When it came to my mocks, I knew what course I wanted and I knew I'd need a lot more points so I worked at it. I got 540 in my mocks and a B1 in art.

I go to a 'normal' public school and I believe it's the student, not the school, thst makes the difference points-wise. I could spend a few thousand a year on my education but it wouldn't make one bit of difference if I didn't work.

The only thing that bugs me though is that fee-paying schools are funded by the government (or are they? I'm almost sure they are). This is obviously unfair to the people who can't afford to go to a 'good' school but, as I stated earlier,

IT'S THE STUDENT, NOT THE SCHOOL.

Naikon

SamHamilton wrote:

In my view, if you want a course bad enough, you'll get it. For my Christmas tests I had no goal, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I did alright, I got something around the 460 mark and I got a D in Art.

When it came to my mocks, I knew what course I wanted and I knew I'd need a lot more points so I worked at it. I got 540 in my mocks and a B1 in art.

I go to a 'normal' public school and I believe it's the student, not the school, thst makes the difference points-wise. I could spend a few thousand a year on my education but it wouldn't make one bit of difference if I didn't work.

The only thing that bugs me though is that fee-paying schools are funded by the government (or are they? I'm almost sure they are). This is obviously unfair to the people who can't afford to go to a 'good' school but, as I stated earlier,

IT'S THE STUDENT, NOT THE SCHOOL.

I think your average crammer Factory like the Institute, Yeats etc dont get anything from the Goverment.

Assez Bien

SamHamilton wrote:

IT'S THE STUDENT, NOT THE SCHOOL.

That is soooo untrue no matter how much drive a student has its the school thats gonna make or break them i.e. the teachers employed in d school as i'v already said in this thread my biology teacher doesn't teach the full course he waits for people to pay him for grinds....how may i ask does this drive a student?? It doesn't

Also what would be the need for schools if its all down to the student?!

cocoa

Naikon wrote:

I think your average crammer Factory like the Institute, Yeats etc dont get anything from the Goverment.

teachers are paid by the government.

cson

cocoa wrote:

teachers are paid by the government.

Touche.

SamHamilton

That is soooo untrue no matter how much drive a student has its the school thats gonna make or break them

I disagree. I go to a school in the Gaeltacht that has about two hundred pupils in it. We don't have a very wide range of subjects to choose from and , like every school, we have great teachers and not so great teachers, most students manage to do well. I got all A's in all higher level subjects for my Junior Cert.

the teachers employed in d school as i'v already said in this thread my biology teacher doesn't teach the full course he waits for people to pay him for grinds

That's a different matter entirely. Your teacher should be reported immediately. I'd speak with the principal straight away. You shouldn't have to rely on grinds to finish a course. It's the teachers job to go through the entire course in class.

Also what would be the need for schools if its all down to the student?!

At school, you are shown what you need to learn and the topics are explained to you. Then it's up to you to reinforce what you've learnt through doing the homework and studying. Schools provide a structured environment that is of the upmost importance for education. I wouldn't have been able to study and learn independently at the age of 12,13,14, etc. You need structure to encourage learning and then it's working at the work by yourself that yields results.

JC 2K3

Assez Bien wrote:

That is soooo untrue no matter how much drive a student has its the school thats gonna make or break them i.e. the teachers employed in d school as i'v already said in this thread my biology teacher doesn't teach the full course he waits for people to pay him for grinds....how may i ask does this drive a student?? It doesn't

Also what would be the need for schools if its all down to the student?!

Load of bollocks.

If a students has enough drive he/she won't need a school/teacher and can just learn from books. Most don't have this much drive, however. It's always better to have someone go through the course with you first.

A teacher is someone who goes through the whole course with a class and exposes them to the content of it.

The difference between a good and bad teacher isn't really that big. As long as they go through the whole course with a class and will answer any questions students might have they've done their job IMO.

There are atrocious teachers and brilliant teachers, but both varieties are rare, and I'd say there are more brilliant ones than atrocious ones anyway. Most teachers are in between, they do their job and it depends on the student after this.

MayDayLady

Ok....I'm a second year college student so I guess its a bit sad that I'm posting in this forum but having seen this thread I just had to!!!

I went to the Institute for 6th year because I had my mind made up on a very tough course and I wanted to give myself the best opportunity to get it. I can honestly say that it was the best thing I ever did. All of my teachers were enthusiastic, caring and quite frankly brilliant. As other people have alluded to in this thread, you are paying for some of the best teachers in the country but beyond that, their dedication is second to none. I had come from a school which I am sad to say seemed to have the attitude that if you were already doing well enough in school then you didn't deserve their attention....woe betide anyone who wanted to do great rather than average. In the institute I had teachers who printed out solutions to exam papers back to 1985, who gave me their home telephone numbers to call them if I got stuck over the holidays and teachers who sat down with me and picked out parts of my homeworks that I could have improved on. I admit the classes were large, but I never came across a teacher who didn't have time to go that extra mile for you...if you took the time to look for help.

Don't get me wrong there are some excellent schools out there that you don't have to pay for, but the Institute gave me what I needed; flexibility, support and great teachers. Apart from the concise notes, the main thing the institute taught me was how to answer a question - you can know a subject inside out but if you fail to answer to question correctly you can get zero!!! And as for the person who claimed that 70% of institute students drop out of college in their first year...where in god's name did you get your figures?? I really can't believe that!!

I never took extra grinds so I cannot comment on those but I just feel that there is a preconception of grind schools which is just not true. They may make money, but they provide a great service so why shouldn't they? That is the core principle of a free market....which Ireland is if you've forgotten. Why shouldn't teachers like whats-her-name who posted earlier be paid for their services? I do feel for those who cannot afford these exam aids, however if you want something badly enough you can achieve it....babysit once a week to pay for a grind if your having trouble in a subject or take out a loan, education is an investment in your future after all!!

To finish off my giant rant you really can't judge whether someone "deserves" a course or not by what school they went to....I know a guy who repeated in the tute to get medicine and is going to make an amazing doctor!! And I'm doing very well in my course despite the fact that I apparently didn't deserve it as much as someone who got the points without grinds. At the end of the day the Leaving Cert is a hard exam system....you have to really want your course to get it, so grinds/no grinds it doesn't matter - work hard and you can do it!!! Anyways good luck guys....college is well worth the hassle!!!!!!!!
:cool:

OctavarIan

cson wrote:

I thought I've gone through this already? For the second time, I would;
> Change the system so that each student is on an equal footing and wealth will make absolutely no difference.

> Change the grind school culture where the emphasis is on what you need for the exam, not the understanding of a subject

> Dispense with much of the rote learning aspects of the leaving cert, and make it more practical, more accessible to students

No I mean HOW would you change things? (I highlighted the wrong word the last time I asked, apologies)