Islam and Israel?

Filan

Just wondering what Islams views on Israel and Judaism are? I've of course read in the media that Islam is antisemetic (Is Islam a semetic faith itself incidentally?), but the Media is as we know not always accurate . Interested in the opinion of Muslims here
Thanks for taking the time to reply
Alan

PDN

Filan wrote:

Just wondering what Islams views on Israel and Judaism are? I've of course read in the media that Islam is antisemetic (Is Islam a semetic faith itself incidentally?), but the Media is as we know not always accurate . Interested in the opinion of Muslims here
Thanks for taking the time to reply
Alan

I'm not a Muslim, but my understanding is that 'Semitic' refers primarily to the languages used by the descendants of Shem (son of Noah), and therefore to the ethnic groups that speak these languages. Arabic and Hebrew are among the Semitic languages, and therefore it would be correct to refer to both Jews and Arabs as Semites. However, this would refer more properly to the Jews as a race, rather than as a faith. Also, not all Arabs are Muslims, so Arabic Christians would also, racially, be Semites. Similarly, the huge amounts of Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia etc would not be Semites.

Sometimes faiths have been referred to as 'Semitic' if they stem from Abraham (a descendant of Shem). By this token Christianity would be classed as a Semitic faith along with Judaism and Islam.

All that aside, I would also be interested in hearing what Muslims who post here think about Israel and Judaism. There is extreme hatred of Israel and the Jews in the Arabic world, including the continued propagation of the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion. However, for centuries persecution of the Jews was more a feature of Christendom than of Islam. Is the current anti-Jewish aspect of Islam in many countries purely historical and cultural (understandable to anyone with knowledge of the history of Palestine)? Or do any Muslim posters here see it as an integral part of their faith? Indeed, as a Christian, am I placing a false separation between faith and culture/history? Would you see culture and history as being inseparable from your faith?

wes

The hatred is due to Palestine. This is the reason and the only reason. Muslims and Jews before this got on way better than Christians and Jews did historically (it was by no means perfect, but Muslims didn't round them up into concentrations camps). The current situations didn't need to happen, but sadly it did. Also the conflict has NOTHING to do with religion. Its about the Palestinians naqba and there removal form there home land by the Israeli's.

I have to wonder why in 1948, the Israeli's decided to kick out 750,000 Palestinians? Why did they hate them so much? Why do people not mention that the hatred goes both ways? Why to Israel continue its illegal colonization of what is left of Palestine? So some Muslims use this (and other reasons) is why there are Muslims who wills sadly show hatred towards Jews, because of the actions of the people who run Israel.

I am not here to excuse Arab/Muslim hatred toward Jews, just mentioning that the Israeli's are not angels by any means. I also condemn all hatred any Muslim shows towards the Jewish people. Having problems with Israels treatment of the Palestinians is no excuse for any hatred towards them.

(Edited to make things more on topic)

metrovelvet

I would also be interested to hear more on this. I had always assumed a mutual disdain.

However, last week in the OB/GYN office connected to a a blatantly Jewish hospital in New York, named after the state of Israel, an islamic couple walked in, a man and his wife [I assume] in a full burkha. This surprised me on two counts: one was why would a man in that religion walk into a gynecologists office and of all the doctors in New York would they attend one that has strong Jewish affiliations if they hate Jews that much?

InFront

People need to stop mixing up Judaism and Zionism.

Also, Islam is not semitic in nature. However, many Muslims are semites, as was Muhammad (peace be upon him). Given the origin of Islam in the land of the descendants of Shem, and the fact that the Prophet, the most exemplary man (peace be upon him), was a Semite, then it is true that to suggest that a Muslim could be anti-semitic, makes no sense.

Islam clearly promotes respect toward Jews as people of a previous revelation, people with whom we share special affinity, and share belief in one and only one all-powerful creator. Jews also share our belief that God has revealed his will through messengers. I am surprised that people presume the relationship is otherwise. Perhaps this is because of mixing up Jews and Israelis or Zionists.
I have no problem criticizing Israel for its human rights abuses, and its abuse of Islam, I don't see how doing so makes me anti-Jewish by any stretch of the imagination. Even the strict Jews of Jerusalem who have been there for thousands of years, oppose Israel.

Filan

I accept your views Infront. Think even Muslims themselves confuse Judaism and Zionism..have met such people who clearly were unable to distinguish the two. As with all religions a lot of people are ignorant of their own faith. Are the media in predominantly Muslims nations partially responsible for this? Feel they probably promote this view.

Thanks for clarifying the term Semite. I studied thrid level German..and well the Nazi's were referred to as Anti-Semetic...clearly then not technicaly correct!

InFront

Yes of course, when I say people need to stop mixing up Zionists and Jews I mean Muslims as much as anyone else.
This is disappointing, because Muslims of all people should be well able to empathise with abuse of one's religion by terrorists; and not turn around and repeat the mistakes of those who confuse Islam with terrorism.

Blatant anti-Jewish rhetoric ultimately does absolutely nothing positive for the Palestinians.
All it does is make those who are otherwise impartial reluctant to side against Israel because they don't want to be associated with that sort of bigotry, and I can see why.
So as well as being racist in itself, it discourages support for Palestinians, and as such is completely counter-productive.

Hobbes

This is not a politics forum. Read the charter if you haven't already. Related post has been moved to politics. If it comes back people will get temp banned.

That is all. keep on topic.

munchester29

I suggest you move Wes's post also then...
Just to be fair...

Filan

I suppose Religion and politics are not easily separated... Religion has hugely influenced politics..because it could be argued that religion is in itself a political system..certainly a large overlap

Hobbes

munchester29 wrote:

I suggest you move Wes's post also then...
Just to be fair...

I would of if I had seen it. Wes can just continue that conversation in the the other thread. [edit] Actually I see he already has.

PDN

wes wrote:

The hatred is due to Palestine. This is the reason and the only reason. Muslims and Jews before this got on way better than Christians and Jews did historically (it was by no means perfect, but Muslims didn't round them up into concentrations camps). The current situations didn't need to happen, but sadly it did. Also the conflict has NOTHING to do with religion. Its about the Palestinians naqba and there removal form there home land by the Israeli's.

I have to wonder why in 1948, the Israeli's decided to kick out 750,000 Palestinians? Why did they hate them so much? Why do people not mention that the hatred goes both ways? Why to Israel continue its illegal colonization of what is left of Palestine? So some Muslims use this (and other reasons) is why there are Muslims who wills sadly show hatred towards Jews, because of the actions of the people who run Israel.

I am not here to excuse Arab/Muslim hatred toward Jews, just mentioning that the Israeli's are not angels by any means. I also condemn all hatred any Muslim shows towards the Jewish people. Having problems with Israels treatment of the Palestinians is no excuse for any hatred towards them.

(Edited to make things more on topic)

While I share your indignation about Israel's actions, it does not explain the extreme hatred towards Jews that exists in many parts of the Islamic world. It is not just Muslims who have suffered as a result of Zionism. Thousands of Palestinian Christians have suffered the exact same scenario, yet that has not created the same violent language and hatred among Christians worldwide. So I am wondering why you get two contrasting responses among two groups who have both suffered the same illegal confiscation of land and colonisation? (That is not intended to be critical to Islam. I am genuinely seeking an answer here).

Muslims and Jews before this got on way better than Christians and Jews did historically (it was by no means perfect, but Muslims didn't round them up into concentrations camps).

In the interests of fairness it should be noted that the concentration camps were organised under Nazism, a philosophy that explicitly rejected Christianity.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

uh.. wasn't the swastika a working mans crucifix? made from a hammer and axe or something

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

explicity rejected christianity?

mmm?

PDN

A speech from 1922, over a decade before Nazism seized power and revealed its true colours?

Here are some later quotes from Hitler:
"It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity, because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood."

"Do you really believe the masses will ever be Christian again? Nonsense. Never again. The tale is finished... but we can hasten matters. The parsons will be made to dig their own graves."

"One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

uh.. wasn't the swastika a working mans crucifix? made from a hammer and axe or something

No. The swastika was adopted from Hinduism and predates Christianity by centuries.

wes

PDN wrote:

While I share your indignation about Israel's actions, it does not explain the extreme hatred towards Jews that exists in many parts of the Islamic world. It is not just Muslims who have suffered as a result of Zionism. Thousands of Palestinian Christians have suffered the exact same scenario, yet that has not created the same violent language and hatred among Christians worldwide. So I am wondering why you get two contrasting responses among two groups who have both suffered the same illegal confiscation of land and colonisation? (That is not intended to be critical to Islam. I am genuinely seeking an answer here).

It happened in there back yard for one. Also, the Holocaust happened in Europe and there is huge guilt due to this. So Zionism is excused and a blind eye turned towards actions of Zionist (which is a secular movement btw). Also look up the map of the greater Israel, considering what happened in 1948 with the Palestinians, there are fears that the Zionists may take more of there land. Now this is paranoia, but they do have a reason for it.

Also, the Israeli's say some extremely disturbing things about the Palestinians. Look them up, it goes for Religious and political leaders. The hatred exists on Israels side as well.

Now Muslims hatred towards Jews is inexcusable regardless. There is no religious basis for it. In fact as others have pointed out its the opposite. To understand the hatred you first have to understand its mutual. The Human rights abuses committed by both sides show this in extreme detail, check out any reputable Human Rights organizations web sites and you will see this. It should be noted the same question can be asked of all self proclaimed Zionists (again which I stress is a secular movement, as you can have Christian and even Muslim Zionists)? Also the paranoia is fueled by leaders in the Middle East (both religious and Political). Almost all the Anti-Semitic literature is translated European stuff. The sources used to promote Anti-Semitism are not Islamic or even written by Muslims, but are convenient ways for leaders to blame the Jewish people on everything. So hence why the hatred is so intense it is fanned by unscrupulous leaders.

InFront

Palestine being a holy land, home of many prophets, and home to the the holy city of Jerusalem and the Masjid-al-Aqsa, it can be hard to decipher where discussion of the religious aspect of the Israeli question begins and where political discussion ends.

This forum isn't for either political nor historical discussion, and I don't think the OP is asking about those disciplines either.
Maybe we can stick to Islamic teaching on

• followers of the Jewish faith, as people with whom we share many beliefs and should afford respect
• A very seperate issue about Islamic teaching on the question of a state called Israel, and on what Islam advises with regard to human rights there; and what Islamic teaching advises Muslims with regard to the region in general

Discussing the political and historical derivation of the situation are off topic.

wes

InFront wrote:

Discussing the political and historical derivation of the situation are off topic.

Fair point, edited my post to take out the politics and history aspect as much as possible and still make my point.

the_new_mr

As Hobbes and InFront have already pointed out, this thread has become far too political. I think the only points of relevance in this forum are the proper Islamic view of Jews and Judaism and that has already been made clear. Jews are People of the Book and must be respected as such and, just like any other human being, must be dealt with on a non-judgmental basis as much as possible.

For those who want to know why there is so much hatred towards Jews in the Islamic world (or the Arab world to be more specific), as already pointed out, it's mainly due to ignorance in confusing Zionism with Judaism and people thinking that every Jew is Zionist in nature. Surprisingly, the media doesn't have anything/much to do with it. There's no question of Israel's crimes against humanity. Don't ask me, ask the UN and they'll tell you how many resolution they've broken. The problem then is that people just get mixed up and think that all Jews are bad since Israel is a Jewish state.

wes wrote:

(it was by no means perfect, but Muslims didn't round them up into concentrations camps)

Sorry Wes but have to issue you a warning here. This statement implies (although perhaps unintentionally) that all Christians rounded Jews up into concentration camps. And as PDN has pointed out, you can't call Hitler a good Christian or perhaps even a Christian. It's the same thing as when people say things like "Why do Muslims have to go round bombing buildings?"

metrovelvet

It was also Christian or Judeo Christian nations which took them out of concentration camps, and it wasnt exclusively Jews who were put in them either.

the_new_mr

Funnily enough, saw a discussion on the telly about the Islamic view of Jews there today. Coincidence or not? You decide

Anyway, the guy on the show mentioned a very relevant verse so I thought I'd post it here.

Al-Imran:113
"[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him]."