Is hitting your dog ok?

Annika30

In recent years, the European Union has taken a strong stance on the abuse of children. Indeed there are now official directives prohibiting parents from striking their children. Do people feel that in the interests of creating a more humane society we should equally take such a hard line on the hitting of animals? I ask this as I am constantly shocked at the numbers of people I encounter who regularly strike their pets.
Annika

BryanL

if you look at the program the dog whisperer,even that guy hits them from time to time,usually he jams his fingers into the sensitive area of the neck.
in any animal group they will use a physical reprimand when posturing and vocal cues are ignored.
i think they is a difference between abusing an animal and giving it a slap.
Bryan

Annika30

You are teaching a dog by getting him to fear pain my point relates to working towards becoming a more humane society.

Jimkel

I suppose you think whipping a horse is wrong to. A more humane society would require dogs to be well trained esp the dangerous dogbreeds, And a tap on the nose or slap on the side is part of that training. Dogs are trained using behavioural psychology, re-enforced behaviour will continue and non re-enforced behaviour will cease. Its a system of punishment and reward that gives a potentially dangerous animal their values and hitting is a part of that.

Besides some of the toy dogs, most dogs were bred for either hunting (ie Killing, Chasing, subdueing) and work (Ie sheepdogs, rescue, police dogs etc) there is a reason why they have to be trained. A staff terrier for example, was bred to hunt and kill bear in packs, These are very tough animals and require a steady and firm hand while training sometimes involving slaps.Otherwise your utopian society would be full of loosely trained Pitbulls, Mastiffs, Bulldogs, Dobermans, Akita's etc.

However when the slaps and taps become abusive, as in not part of their training such as kicking and punching, or belting. Then it's animal abuse and then it's wrong.

WindSock

I think the reason for not hitting kids is to not perpetuate violence and teach them not to solve problems with their fists. I don't think the same applies to dogs though. A gentle tap on the nose is hardly going to make a dog think twice about not snapping when its threatened.

Alfasudcrazy

I have to give the dogs the odd 'slap' if they are too rough on one of the others hurting them or if they run away too far.

I only give them a symbolic slap in that it never hurts - just a tap with a dissaproving few words is enough. Most times a gruff stop command is all that is required.

faceman

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

Most times a gruff stop command is all that is required.

exactly. its all in the tone. Ive never seen a dog trainer hit a dog

Annika30

Jimkel, Dog training has nothing to do with hitting your dog. You never have to use your fist to get a well trained dog, that is old school. There is no such thing as dangerous breeds only dangerous owners. There is no breed that is bred for killing, tracking yes but not killing.
Annika

Jimkel

Annika30 wrote:

Jimkel, Dog training has nothing to do with hitting your dog. You never have to use your fist to get a well trained dog, that is old school. There is no such thing as dangerous breeds only dangerous owners. There is no breed that is bred for killing, tracking yes but not killing.
Annika

Certain Dogs were set upon bear and bull, to kill. Thats fact.

I never said the fist, I said using small taps on the head or slaps on the sides, Lightly and just to indicate punishment.

As for dangerous breeds?
can you tell me the following isn't an example of a dangerous breed?

A 6 month old untrained rotweiller was left in my neighbors garden the other day, only to jump the wall and assault another dog, nearly killing it. when a passerby tried to split it up, he got bitten by the rotty.

Now they look after the rotty well, and do not abuse or even train it. But it's dangerous. thats the second time it attacked in the last month. Now that dog needs behavioural training or else it needs to be put down. Now theres a dog with no provocation attacking. Why did he attack, because it's in his Genes.

Jotter

a humane society is made up of what word - HUMAN.

We are humans, dogs are dogs. I am surprised that a dog trainer like yourself Annika would fail to see the difference between the 2, and Im not having a go at you, I just believe its fairer to the dog to see him as a dog and nothing else.

Dogs are social climbers, sometimes in a pack a dog will decide to disobey the alpha, in this case the alpha will give a warning growl, if that is ignored he'll snap and if if thats ignored he'll bite. If the wanna be alpha decides to challenge there will be a fight and the strongest will win. They dont sit down over coffee to discuss things like adults!

I work the same with my dog, if he disobeys he gets a no, if he continues he gets a stern no in a deeper voice and if he keeps it up hell get a slap - not a hit or a kick or a punch, a slap - there is a big difference.

The very odd person will abuse a dog by hitting or punching and of course that is wrong, but the majority of dog owners who slap know the bounderies and the difference between the 2, same with parents.

I absolutely do not agree with people who namby pamby around everything and want the world to be one big pc playground bec lifes not like that, we all have to use our judgement when it comes to raising animals and kids bec at the end of the day the buck stops with us and its a big responsibilty.

If you dont want to slap (as in tap, just so theres no misunderstandings) your dogs or children then dont, if you do and you do it responsibly then theres no problem.

BryanL

JimKel when the rottweiller was attacking the other dog you should have used a dissaproving tone!when the other dog died your tone would have made it feel embarassed;)
yes by humane to people,but it's okay to behave like an animal to animals.you must maintain dominance of your dogs,with most just the tone will do but you have to have slightly more at your disposal,thats not animal abuse
Bryan

Jimkel

Jotter wrote:

a humane society is made up of what word - HUMAN.

We are humans, dogs are dogs. ..........etc

Couldnt have said it better myself

Annika30

Jimkel, There certainly are no such thing as a dangerous breed, but obviously there are dangerous dogs and that is due to unresponsible ownership, lack of understanding of a breed and lack of training.
Can you tell me exactly what breeds are bred to kill.

Jotter, I am aware of what letters comprise the word Humane, but its meaning does not relate to the classification of species, but rather to the attritributes which we strive to instill in our treatment of the rest of the animal world. Humane refers not to specifically to us, rather to how we act towards each other and towards those we have responsibility in our position at the top of the food chain. To simply interpret a word because it looks like another is to show an impoverished understanding of the holistic nature of language and is equally a distraction from what is most important, i.e. that we should strive to remove all forms of cruelty from our world.

Annika

Jimkel

Annika30 wrote:

Jimkel, There certainly are no such thing as a dangerous breed, but obviously there are dangerous dogs and that is due to unresponsible ownership, lack of understanding of a breed and lack of training.
Can you tell me exactly what breeds are bred to kill.

Jotter, I am aware of what letters comprise the word Humane, but its meaning does not relate to the classification of species, but rather to the attritributes which we strive to instill in our treatment of the rest of the animal world. Humane refers not to specifically to us, rather to how we act towards each other and towards those we have responsibility in our position at the top of the food chain. To simply interpret a word because it looks like another is to show an impoverished understanding of the holistic nature of language and is equally a distraction from what is most important, i.e. that we should strive to remove all forms of cruelty from our world.

Annika

It is not cruel to use a just, fair and stern hand when disciplining a dog.
It is cruel to pussyfoot around and ignor the cruel laws of nature.
Pit bulls,staff terriers two examples of dogs bred to hunt and aid in killing,by subdueing large animals like bear and bull and going for the jugular. Also some large dogs have a history in their breed of being used to fight for sport, by the Romans for example. its a long and cruel history but it is in their genes and their breeding, this can surface every few generations and make for a viscious dog.

We can strive to live in harmony with each other and nature, but there will always be cruelty.

Am I cruel?? I keep many fish and occasionally I must put one down if they are very sick and dieing a slow death. Is that cruel, or is that just responsable ownership. as an animal keeper you are required to do the nice and the nasty, not just the nice.

In saying that I have never donemore then slap my dogs on the head lightly if they are acting up, and this happens very rarely. In fact I have not done it in years,

peasant

BryanL wrote:

yes by humane to people,but it's okay to behave like an animal to animals.

Do you know how dogs behave among themselves, in their own group?

99.9% of differences are settled quietly, by body language signals, by avoidance behaviour and by calming signals.
Escalation into full blown violence is avoided as much as possible. Dogs even keep each other in check.

It is ok to get physical with your dogs, if you must. Push them away, hold them back, block them off ..same as you would pat them, pet them, cuddle them.

But don't hit your dogs.

It's in your own interest not to.

A "leader" that is incapable of sorting differences quietly and with a minimum of fuss is not a good "leader. A "leader" that resorts to mindelss violence and brutality is a bad leader, worthy only of distrust, fear and possibly rebellion.

Every slap, every blow and every kick that you dish out to your dog increases their distrust, their unwillingess to obey you and they likehood that they will go into rebellion and possibly even attack.

Nothing to do with being "human", "humane" or "humanity" ...but everything with understanding dogs.

peasant

Jimkel wrote:

... as an animal keeper you are required to do the nice and the nasty, not just the nice.

read my post above :rolleyes:

peasant

Annika30 wrote:

You are teaching a dog by getting him to fear pain my point relates to working towards becoming a more humane society.

"Teaching" a dog by making it to fear pain is not teaching.
It's instilling fear ...just fear. Not respect, not leadership, just fear.

It's the wrong way ...

Jimkel

peasant wrote:

read my post above :rolleyes:

I think people are getting the wrong idea. I have never ever hit my dogs, never kicked, never attacked. Never punched or used any sort of physical force beyond restraining. A tap on the dogs head to get their head out of the bowel while im still trying to fill it with food is as far as i've ever gone,

peasant

Jimkel wrote:

I think people are getting the wrong idea. I have never ever hit my dogs, never kicked, never attacked,

So why do you use words like "cruel" or "nasty" then ?

If you use body language that your dog understands (ie. you growl at your dog or you push it away decisevely) that's not cruel or nasty ...that's dog language and perfectly ok.

fatmammycat

Personally I think striking or slapping a dog is more a sign of owner frustration/anger than any real training.
I managed to raise a doberman pincher without slapping or hitting him, and he was a remarkably well behaved animal and a great ambassador to his breed. My father raised tough working collies as cattle dogs and he never struck them either. All our dogs responded to a firm voice, 'no' (in my case) and 'Lay by'(in my fathers).
The key to all dog training is consistancy, start as you mean to go on. When they are pups set the rules you expect that particular dog to live by and stick to them. Some breeds are easier to train than others but the method remains the same, you'll achieve far more with a firm and consistant no than you will ever get if your only resort it to strike your animal.
People expect a lot of dogs, but dogs are not mind readers. If you don't want your dog jumping up on you dont' allow it EVER and if he does, don't reward the behaviour by making a fuss, if you don't want your dog up on the furniture don't allow it one day and then not the next, it's just confuses the animal.
I see it a lot, people who let their dogs do what they like 6 days a week and then try order the dog about on the seventh. Naturally the dog will be like 'What? I'm not doing that. I didn't do it yesterday? What do you want anyway? Why are you yelling at me?' Most dogs are eager to please, but they have to know what you want first.
And another thing and this goes without saying, a tired dog is usually a well behaved dog. Well exercised, socialised dogs are one tenth the trouble a dog shut up on his own all day is. Sometimes this means getting up an hour earlier in the day to give your dog a good walk, and then again in the evening-and yes even when it's raining and you don't feel like it (we've all been there). Sometimes this mean spending a good portion of your weekend traipsing around parks and Dollymount Strand watching your dog get filthy and knowing he's going to roll around your car the minute he gets back in it. Oh well, you're a dog owner. Socialise dogs early, as soon as your pups shots are done get them out and about and mixing, this way they deal well with people and other dogs as they get older.
In short, if you're going to get a dog, especially a 'dangerous breed' (a stupid title if ever I heard one) you need to read up on them, do your homework and be willing to put the time and energy into your animal, and hitting the dog is nowhere in my training program and I hope it is not in most people's.

Jotter

Human first turns up in the English written record in the late 12th century. Humane is basically the same word which simply diverged in meaning and yes you are right it means to treat humans and animals in a compassionate way.

Cruelty unfortunately is part of our world and while I fully agree with stamping it out I dont believe giving your dog or child a slap is cruelty - in fact to say it is, to me, is disrespectful to those who have suffered real cruelty. Its like someone showing you a 10 inch scar with stitiches and you comparing to a tiny little scratch and saying they are the same thing.

Im not cruel to animals or to kids, thats why it annoying when people imply that you are bec you give them a slap from time to time. I believe in order to stamp out REAL cruelty it is important to keep things in perspective.

I am not trying to change your belief that hitting is wrong, each to their own, but I do want you to see the difference between a slap and being cruel.

My tone of voice works on my dog 9 times out of 10, but every now and again hell get brave and decide he doesnt want to do what I tell him, I dont slap him unless every other method has failed and then hell get a quick slap across the nose, it doesnt hurt him it just makes him sit up and take notice.

An old shephard trick is to bite the ear of the sheep dog, this tells him in doggie terms that the shephard is boss and not to be messed with.

Again Annika Im not having a go at you, I respect that you dont want to hit your dogs but I do think you need to respect that people who do slap/tap their dogs arent doing so out of cruelty.

Right thats enough arguing for me today, arguments and hangovers dont work!

Hootie

Brought my dogs to obedience classes as pups and was told that if a dog hurts you give a good and loud yelp, this is what the mother does if the pup bites too hard during feeding and tells the pup that they have just hurt. Also he told me that a small tap on the end of nose does more than smacking the dog, telling it it is in the wrong but I have seen that a good loud NO does work and as one poster said its the tone of voice.

Jimkel

peasant wrote:

So why do you use words like "cruel" or "nasty" then ?

If you use body language that your dog understands (ie. you growl at your dog or you push it away decisevely) that's not cruel or nasty ...that's dog language and perfectly ok.

Because I am totally against the attitude that some owners have to discipline,such as pussy footing around and molycoddling the dog. refusing to be stern even if its required just because they dont view the dog as a dog, but as their "Little angel" this ruins dogs and an owner should be aware that there is a time for love and attention and a time for being strict. Thats the nasty part for some, some people are unable to punish a dog by say, putting it out the back garden and making it feel like it's in trouble by using tone of voice and body language.

BryanL

from another board,where the tone was not enough

Advice would be greatfully recieved. I have 2 male terriers a lakey and a russell they get on ok the occasional tear up but more noise than anything else. I keep them indoors i know some of you would frown upon this but they go with me everywhere. I had a problem last night: the smoke alarm went off and the dogs were going mad my wife who is nine months pregnant was waving a tea towel under the smoke alarm and the russell jumped up and nipped my wifes back. i shouted at the russell and made him submit with all this comotion going on the next thing i knew he went for me i scruffed him on the back of the neck but in seconds he bit me probalby 6 times on my arms each time he has drawn blood he has made a bit of a mess of my arms.

peasant

BryanL wrote:

from another board,where the tone was not enough

Advice would be greatfully recieved. I have 2 male terriers a lakey and a russell they get on ok the occasional tear up but more noise than anything else. I keep them indoors i know some of you would frown upon this but they go with me everywhere. I had a problem last night: the smoke alarm went off and the dogs were going mad my wife who is nine months pregnant was waving a tea towel under the smoke alarm and the russell jumped up and nipped my wifes back. i shouted at the russell and made him submit with all this comotion going on the next thing i knew he went for me i scruffed him on the back of the neck but in seconds he bit me probalby 6 times on my arms each time he has drawn blood he has made a bit of a mess of my arms.

Oh ...and you think that hitting or kicking the dog would have made it better?

There was total pandemonium, the alarm blaring, the woman (possibly screeching) and waving towels about, a sense of overal panic in the air.

...of course the dogs join in ...what do you expect?

But instead of diffusing the situation by creating calm (and possibly letting the dogs out to get them out of the way) your man increases the panic and then "goes for" the dog (in the dogs eyes) by making it submit (whatever that means) and when the dog protests he attacks it by grabbing it in the neck ...I'm not surprised he got bitten.

Bad leadership at its best.

Nala

BryanL wrote:

i shouted at the russell and made him submit with all this comotion going on the next thing i knew he went for me.

Why didn't you just put the dogs out? They were probably afraid and there was probably chaos going on. We hate the sound of a smoke alarm, to a dog's ears they must be torture. That was not the time for "making him submit", it was a time for showing him that everything is OK and you are in charge of the situation. The dogs panicked, lots of animals do when they are afraid. My cat is the most gentle animal you will ever meet but she is terrified of the hairdryer (she hates loud noises) and no amount of training has fixed that, she is convinced. I don't go anywhere near her when I have the hairdryer in my hand because she will lash out. Sounds like your dog reacted in a similar way.

In response to the OP- If you hit an animal what's to stop them biting you back? They are entitled to defend themselves. There is nothing wrong with a tap on the nose, but most of the time a firm "NO" should be OK. You need an animal to respect you, not fear you.

Annika30

Jotter, I know you are not having a go;)

peasant, you are as wise as always:D

Annika

Our man in Havana

There are times when I need to step in with my 10! When the pack have a fight I have to stop it & that often means being rough! No way am I gonna stop my rottie, newfie x lab & my lab when they are fighting! At these times yelling is not enough cause pack mentality has taken over - So I do at time smack my dogs! After all I am the top dog (all us humans are) So when the dogs fight I have to pull them off & often slap them to stop the fight & ensure they realise that the humans are dominant! Thankfully full on fights rarely occur maybe once or twice a year - I can stop most arguments with a sharp STOP etc.

Our man in Havana

& before anyone has a go at me - my Lab Max has caused my old rottie Duke (rip) Teddy my newfie x lab & Roscoe my red setted x borzoi to all need to be stitched back up - these are not little scuffles but proper male dominance. All my dogs are spayed/neutered before anyone asks.

Annika30

Being the 'top dog' has nothing to do with slapping and fighting with the other dogs. All that will do is get your dogs to distrust and fear you. The dog who is most active in enforcing order in a pack is usually not the top dog, but rather a second-in-command acting under the authority of the leader.
Why on earth would you have 10 dogs, how do you find the time for all of them, I am struggling with 3 dogs?
Annika

peasant

Our two bitches do have the occasional spat ...and yes I do go in pretty heavy handedly.
But not to slap them or hit them or whatever ...just to separate them. This may well involve grabbing one of them and literally throwing her out of reach or wading in heavily and separating them with my legs/shins.
A bystander would probably say that I'm getting fairly "heavy" there ...but never aggressive towards any of the dogs.

I'm the keeper of the peace and I'll keep and enforce it and not descend to their level by lashing out.

If a guily party can be identified, then she gets the cold shoulder treatment ..if not a general grumbling in both dogs' direction will have to do.