Is hitting your dog ok?

Nala

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

No, you shouldn't hit them, if you have to hit them you are not rearing them right. However, I think cutting off somethings tail/neutering it is far worse than giving a dog a tap to keep him in check.

Tar.Aldarion,
85% of female rabbits get cancer of the reproductive organs if they are not neutered. If you are not going to breed from a female rabbit is it not kinder to neuter her than run the (high) risk of her developing cancer?

David Michael

LovelyTom wrote:

Why would you want to physically harm a creature that you're supposed to love and care for...

The people for the "hitting/tapping" are not using such force to cause harm.

Harming = abuse.

While feeding the puppies a few days ago I had my hands full of dishes and the mum was impeading my way. I had to shove/lift her out of my way with me leg/foot as telling her was not working. Now thats not something I'd do to a fellow human (oh but some times at a crushed bar...the urge...the URGE!!!) *ahem*... but I had little choice as I had my hands full and could easily have gone on my ass. So I used my leg/calf/foot. This was not a kick. Molly was not harmed. I feel the RSPCA need not be called....

corkimp

on hitting a dog think of this:
Do you ever see a mother hitting/slapping her pups? No she uses vocal commands - growls and physical things - catching the pup by the scruff and gently shaking. If you hit a dog, especially after the incident, the dog thinks you are angry and going to hurt it, hence the submisive behaviour of cowering, hiding and lying down. He is not "understanding you" but learning you can get angry so tries to passify you. Teach the dog no and use your voice and body language, the dog learns from this. You are the pack leader, the dog looks to you for guidance. It learns whats acceptable behaviour - walking on heel, sitting through praise. It learns what is not acceptable behaviour through things like saying "no" in a strong tone, ignoring it when it jumps up or does something wrong. Hitting does lead to hand fear. If you raise your hand over a dog and it cowers it shows the dog is afraid of your hand most likely from a bad experience like hitting/slapping.

Demonique

Bond-007 wrote:

There are times when I need to step in with my 10! When the pack have a fight I have to stop it & that often means being rough! No way am I gonna stop my rottie, newfie x lab & my lab when they are fighting! At these times yelling is not enough cause pack mentality has taken over - So I do at time smack my dogs! After all I am the top dog (all us humans are) So when the dogs fight I have to pull them off & often slap them to stop the fight & ensure they realise that the humans are dominant! Thankfully full on fights rarely occur maybe once or twice a year - I can stop most arguments with a sharp STOP etc.

Hmmm, not a good idea to get in the way of a fight IMHO. Far more effective to turn the hose on them

2funki4wheelz

Demonique wrote:

Hmmm, not a good idea to get in the way of a fight IMHO. Far more effective to turn the hose on them

It is best to keep away and use water/noise etc but even with our dogs some fights got so out of control - the % of terrier in one has given her the 'hang on' attitude - we had to step in and pull them apart by the back legs and it's incredibly hard to keep your cool when your pets are attacking each other.

I'm personally against hitting them as they don't seem to understand and to see a dog cowering is upsetting. As another poster said, I have seen that Cesar guy, the Dog Whisperer does I think give the dogs little pinch on the neck, meant to mimic the nips they give each other.

popecatapetal

background: house in the middle of the country. farms all around. family has already lost two dogs bacause they were chasing sheep and the farmer shot one and poisoned the other. family gets new dog, never seen a sheep before.

scenario: dog chases sheep.

problem: if farmer finds dog doing this, beloved family pet will be instantly killed.

solution #1: my dad catches the dog, holds him firmly, points to the sheep, and says no. releases dog.

result #1: dog immediately returns to chasing sheep.

solution #2: dad catches dog, points to sheep, yells at dog, and proceeds to wallop thoroughly.

result #2: dog can never look at a sheep again without remembering the association with walloping.

discussion: cruel, maybe, but effective. and the dog doesn't die a slow and horrible death from poisoning or a ruptured intestine from a gunshot like the last two dogs.

conclusion: a few moments of unpleasantness can be worth a good long lifetime of obedience.

Bernard Hopkins

farmer shouldnt have a dog , if theres a good chance he'll be shooting it dead for following instinct.

popecatapetal

Bernard Hopkins wrote:

farmer shouldnt have a dog , if theres a good chance he'll be shooting it dead for following instinct.

we arent farmers. we had a house in a farming area, and a dog, which we had to train not to chase sheep (see above) so that the farmer wouldnt shoot it dead.

peasant

solution #3
give dad a good walloping to make him buy a proper fence !

result #3
dog can't chase sheep

discussion: none necessary

conclusion: perfect

result #2: dog can never look at a sheep again without remembering the association with walloping.

discussion: cruel, maybe, but effective.

cruel ...absolutely !
effective ...me arse

The dog will NOT associate the walloping with the sheep that the walloper just pointed at ...pointing at something means sweet F.A. to a dog. You could point at a lamppost and give it "a good walloping" and it wouldn't chase sheep for a while.

Why? because you've just beaten it up for no apparent reason ...so its world is a little shook, same as its confidence and sense of security ...and it will take a while for those to "reset" to normal.

But once they they do, the dog will be its old, insintinct driven self again and it will chase sheep, given the opportunity.

popecatapetal

peasant wrote:

cruel ...absolutely !
effective ...me arse

The dog will NOT associate the walloping with the sheep that the walloper just pointed at ...pointing at something means sweet F.A. to a dog. You could point at a lamppost and give it "a good walloping" and it wouldn't chase sheep for a while.

Why? because you've just beaten it up for no apparent reason ...so its world is a little shook, same as its confidence and sense of security ...and it will take a while for those to "reset" to normal.

But once they they do, the dog will be its old, insintinct driven self again and it will chase sheep, given the opportunity.

actually, the dog never did chase sheep again. we only let him off when dad was around for the first few weeks, cos we were worried about him reverting, and if the dog looked like he was going to run, dad caught him and gave him a little tap on the nose, to remind him.

eventually we were able to bring him out ourselves without worrying about the sheep, and we didnt have to remind him not to anymore. he knew that he wasnt allowed chase sheep.

he lived a good four or five years after that, and never once went after a sheep again. eventually, the farmer poisoned him anyway, cos some wild dogs were worrying the sheep, and the farmer didnt like us. we moved away from there quite soon afterwards.

peasant

A proper fence still would have saved its life ...and that of its predecessors.

But I guess beating up your dog is so much easier and cheaper. (And more satisfying, depending on your frame of mind)

golden

I lived in sheep country and the onus is on the dog owner to have proper fencing to keep dogs in the owners property and for dog not to be tresspassing. I love dogs and have seen what harm dogs can do especially in lambing season. We have quite a large garden however, it is totally fenced due to the fact that we were in sheep country also entrance gate was closed all the time and we have never had a problem.

Basically the garden should be enclosed or if the garden is too big have an enclosed area where the dog(s) can be left unsupervised.

Basically it is unjustifyed to beat the dog senseless so that it would not chase sheep. We did not have a problem and all dogs we had are quite big dogs and not toy dogs

dudara

Bernard Hopkins wrote:

farmer shouldnt have a dog , if theres a good chance he'll be shooting it dead for following instinct.

Now there's an idealistic and naive statement.

Dogs are domesticated creatures. But they still have fairly feral instincts. I come from a dairy-farming background, where we used to use border collies for cattle herding and Jack Russells for rat control.

Even the best trained collie can sometimes disappear, if not tied up or locked up. Another dog can be in heat nearby, or they hear other dogs. If they get together in a gang, then instinct takes over and they start to hunt. And if your dog does that, then any responsible farmer has absolutely no choice but to put them down. I remember my father having to put down at least 2 fully-trained, otherwise great collies because of rambling. My father loves his dogs and put a lot of effort into training them. Even though we don't farm anymore we still have collies and he loves them. But he will put one down in a heartbeat if they are a risk to animals or people.

peasant

dudara wrote:

... if your dog does that, then any responsible farmer has absolutely no choice but to put them down

Helloooo?

Fence? lead? keep it indoors? keep it under control?

or ..you could just beat it sensless ...


Now where's that smiley that hits its head off a brick wall ?

fits

@ popecatapetal your dog should never have been let wander loose near sheep (or at all) whether it was inclined to chase them or not....
I'm not surprised the farmer disposed of your dogs, given your attitude... Loose dogs have a very serious effect on pregnant ewes and can cause them to abort their young and not go in lamb again due to the trauma... outside of the cruelty to the sheep, given that this is the man's livelihood, can you at least try to understand his point of view?

This thread is very frustrating..

dudara

peasant wrote:

Helloooo?

Fence? lead? keep it indoors? keep it under control?

or ..you could just beat it sensless ...


Now where's that smiley that hits its head off a brick wall ?

It's not feasible to keep working dogs under lock and key the whole time. Nor it is particularly humane. When you live in the city, then you can keep your dog in confined spaces all you want.

Did I mention anywhere in my post about beating the dog senseless?

You don't give a dog who has gone hunting and killed a second chance on a farm. It's harsh, but it is the reality.

fits

well we always managed to... letting dogs wander is not acceptable to farmers...

peasant

dudara wrote:

It's not feasible to keep working dogs under lock and key the whole time. Nor it is particularly humane. When you live in the city, then you can keep your dog in confined spaces all you want.

Did I mention anywhere in my post about beating the dog senseless?

You don't give a dog who has gone hunting and killed a second chance on a farm. It's harsh, but it is the reality.

Don't give me this "not humane" argument ... is it "humane " to put a perfectly healthy dog down for following its natural instincts?

After all ..what makes a working dog a good working dog is strong instincts channelled into work.

Of course it is possible to have your dog under control at all times ...working or not.

If it's working you're there, working with it ...if you're not there you make sure it can't go walkabaout ...what's so difficult about that?


To be fair ...you didn't mention anything about beating the dog ...that was just my frustration with the undertones of this thread lately runnning away with me, sorry.

but to sum it up:

You don't give a dog, a working dog, that was bred and selected for its strong instincts the opportinity to go hunting in the first place ...especially not on a farm.
Cumbersome and maybe a bit of work ...definetly ...but your bloody responsibility.

Don't blame the dog for being a dog and following its instincts. Blame yourself for being negligent and allowing it to run off and go hunting.
And don't gloss your failure over by saying it is your duty to the farming community to remove this "threat" be having it put down. You're not doing the "right thing" ...you're covering for your negligence ...and a dog had to die for it !
It's harsh ...but it's the reality.



and an EDIT as an afterthought:

There are lots of ways of keeping a dog "under lock and key" that don't involve hobbling the dog or tying a big brick to its neck or locking it into a dingy shed or tying it up and that are perfectly "humane" ... all it takes is the will to do so and a bit of effort.

faceman

just remembered that if you knock a dog down in your car etc, you must report it to the gardai by law. dogs are considered to be further up the peckin order.

Our man in Havana

I feel this thread is going around in circles now so I am locking it.