whose fault

jonomono

hi guys
I need your advice. whose fault it would be when a car driver is turning right onto major road(2 way) and a moped rider overtaking the stopped cars at red traffic light by driving outside of broken middle white line, as approaching to a jucntion of red light, and ran into a car which turing right(from small road to major road) at the right hand side of the road(means on the right side of middle white broken line). all other cars on the major road r standstill as traffic light is red.

so whose fault it would be?
car driver's fault or moped rider's? r moped riders r allowed to overtake stopped cars by driving through wrong side of the road?

many thx in advance
jono

Nordie

The Moped rider.

jonomono

Nordie wrote:

The Moped rider.

thanks nordie!

dak

I would say the moped rider is at fault - failing to take due care and attention of other road users and breaking a red light.

UrbanFox

Agree that moped muppet is liable.

Be aware though that there are rarely "absolute rights" in using the roads even when your light is green.

Nordie

Copped a Moped today doing exactly the same this afternoon, he was overtaking cars whilst they were stopped at red light but he had the cop on to pull inside the white line when a car turned right onto the opposite lane. LOL at the time thinking of of thread.

jonomono

hi folks
many thx for replies.
I took few pics of the spot where incident happend. u can see one of the pic. u can see 'yellow marking' clearly showing the position of my car and moped when it happend. from moped's position u folks can imagine where about moped was flying to!! I was coming out of yellow box and she was headiing off towards red traffic signal.
here is the link. pls copy n paste .

http://i1.tinypic.com/4p1a71v.jpg



I would advise these moped riders to pls pls take care of the other car drivers.

I will be showing these pics to my insurance company and ofcourse they will b investigating this. well..... to my shock when moped rider made claim against me and told me her moped is fully distroyed in incident and she needs brand new 07 moped replacing her old 03 model. and blamed me for incident!!!! urrrrrr seems odd when my car got two scracthes but her moped fully distroyed !!!!

UrbanFox

BTW this is not a legal opinion or advice as that is not allowed on this board !! This is just a view on the general issues that arise from the post.

jonomono I have changed my mind ! Having seen your excellent photo of the scene I now realise that I misread your original post.

I thought that the moped passed through a red light and then collided with you. Not so apparently. As I now understand it the moped was driving towards the traffic lights in your photograph and you came from the left side of the photo as we look at it. If so, the red light is virtually an irrelevant issue as I now see it.

Your duty of care on entering from a side road is to yield to traffic on the major road and that includes traffic coming from your right. By definition she was there and so you must have failed to see her. This is the point on which you may well be liable if it goes to civil court.

In short, I think that you will be held liable in negligence. However, she must be guilty of substantial contributory negligence by virtue of the reckless way she drove her machine. I really hate saying this to you mate but I reckon that's how it will go.

This was most unreasonable conduct on the part of the moped rider. It is probably a matter of good fortune that most of us have not had a similar accident especially with motor cycle couriers. I really despise people like moped riders who actually impose themselves on other people in an act of recklessness and then expect you to pay for it. Arrrggggghhhh....:mad: :mad:

Ask your insurance company to look up the English case of MOODY -v- POWELL (1973 ? ). As I recall learning that case a motorcyclist overtook a line of stationary cars at a junction and on the wrong side of the road. A collision occurred with a car coming from the junction on the motorcyclist's left. The motorist was held liable. HOWEVER, the motorcyclist's damages were reduced by about 70% on grounds of contributory negligence. In other words the driver was 30% responsible and the motorcyclist was 70% responsible.

Any law students who have access to a tort textbook might please double check this for me as I am away from home base for a while and don't have access to reference resources !!!


P.S. Is this Rathmines, D6 ? If so, she was probably mesmerised by the election posters forward and left of the lights. McDowell & Ahern ????

UrbanFox

BTW this is not a legal opinion or advice as that is not allowed on this board !! This is just a view on the general issues that arise from the post.

jonomono I have changed my mind ! Having seen your excellent photo of the scene I now realise that I misread your original post.

I thought that the moped passed through a red light and then collided with you. Not so apparently. As I now understand it the moped was driving towards the traffic lights in your photograph and you came from the left side of the photo as we look at it. If so, the red light is virtually an irrelevant issue as I now see it.

Your duty of care on entering from a side road is to yield to traffic on the major road and that includes traffic coming from your right. By definition she was there and so you must have failed to see her. This is the point on which you may well be liable if it goes to civil court.

In short, I think that you will be held liable in negligence. However, she must be guilty of substantial contributory negligence by virtue of the reckless way she drove her machine. I really hate saying this to you mate but I reckon that's how it will go.

This was most unreasonable conduct on the part of the moped rider. It is probably a matter of good fortune that most of us have not had a similar accident especially with motor cycle couriers. I really despise people like moped riders who actually impose themselves on other people in an act of recklessness and then expect you to pay for it. Arrrggggghhhh....:mad: :mad:

Ask your insurance company to look up the English case of MOODY -v- POWELL (1973 ? ). As I recall learning that case a motorcyclist overtook a line of stationary cars at a junction and on the wrong side of the road. A collision occurred with a car coming from the junction on the motorcyclist's left. The motorist was held liable. HOWEVER, the motorcyclist's damages were reduced by about 70% on grounds of contributory negligence. In other words the driver was 30% responsible and the motorcyclist was 70% responsible.

Any law students who have access to a tort textbook might please double check this for me as I am away from home base for a while and don't have access to reference resources !!!


P.S. Is this Rathmines, D6 ? If so, she was probably mesmerised by the election posters forward and left of the lights. McDowell & Ahern ????

dK1NG

UrbanFox wrote:

Ask your insurance company to look up the English case of MOODY -v- POWELL (1973 ? ). As I recall learning that case a motorcyclist overtook a line of stationary cars at a junction and on the wrong side of the road. A collision occurred with a car coming from the junction on the motorcyclist's left. The motorist was held liable. HOWEVER, the motorcyclist's damages were reduced by about 70% on grounds of contributory negligence. In other words the driver was 30% responsible and the motorcyclist was 70% responsible.

Any law students who have access to a tort textbook might please double check this for me as I am away from home base for a while and don't have access to reference resources !!!

just had a quick glance at quill's book there, out of interest, but no mention of it.

UrbanFox

It might be in Bingham's Motor Claims cases.

seamus

I've moved this to Motors because legal advice is not permitted on the Legal Discussion board.

FWIW, I think you were in the wrong. From the picture , it would appear that the rider was overtaking a line of stationary vehicles, where there was a broken white line. This is perfectly legal (assuming of course that the did it with care).

cast_iron

I agree with seamus, you should have taken more care when pulling out. The moped was within its right to overtake those cars on a broken line.
There may be some blame assigned to the moped also. I'm not familiar with the quoted case, but I'd guess you would have to shoulder most of the costs on this one.

Hotblack Desiato

jonomono wrote:

hi guys
I need your advice. whose fault it would be when a car driver is turning right onto major road(2 way) and a moped rider overtaking the stopped cars at red traffic light by driving outside of broken middle white line, as approaching to a jucntion of red light, and ran into a car which turing right(from small road to major road) at the right hand side of the road(means on the right side of middle white broken line). all other cars on the major road r standstill as traffic light is red.

so whose fault it would be?
car driver's fault or moped rider's? r moped riders r allowed to overtake stopped cars by driving through wrong side of the road?

:rolleyes: Of course they are. Overtaking is supposed to be done on the "wrong" side of the road, not on the left...

When entering a major road from a minor road you must give way to ALL traffic on the major road, that includes traffic overtaking. Many drivers see stopped traffic on one side and assume nothing can come from that direction, WRONG.

So it's your fault, in future look out for bikes. Hopefully nobody got hurt. Seems you think that big has right of way over small?

The only real mitigating factor would be if the moped was overtaking illegally, but you say it was a broken white line.

jonomono

ninja900 wrote:

:rolleyes: Of course they are. Overtaking is supposed to be done on the "wrong" side of the road, not on the left...

When entering a major road from a minor road you must give way to ALL traffic on the major road, that includes traffic overtaking. Many drivers see stopped traffic on one side and assume nothing can come from that direction, WRONG.

So it's your fault, in future look out for bikes. Hopefully nobody got hurt. Seems you think that big has right of way over small?

The only real mitigating factor would be if the moped was overtaking illegally, but you say it was a broken white line.

well if bikers r allowed to ride through broken white line unless is safe to do so!!! then why not car drivers who stopped for me and who left yellow box clear for me to finish my turn, did the same thing. so as u saying then all car drivers are allowed to drive through white broken lines!!!!!!!!!!!
why they stop on a YELLOW BOX????????
yellow box is made there for 'some special reason' and 'that reason' is obivious as moped rider is approaching towards the red traffic signal, that someone could drive into or out from yellow box.
and if moped rider had any consideration to driving rules, then she supposed to guess that a yellow box is ahead of her when all other cars are stopped on road and those car drivers arent just mad to stop!!!! they r stopped for a reason. that reason this moped rider never thought???

and specially when a moped rider riding bikes in zig-zag way.... means comin out from back of the cars!!!! how a motorist who is sitting low can see a moped when
a moped rider sitting at certain height(ofcourse higher than a car driver) cant see the car coming out of yellow box!!

moreover mopeds are same machines as other cars on the the roads.
so u mean mopeds r allowed to over take stationary cars but not other cars can overtake stationary cars through white broken line!!!!
then i think that mean would if someone caught drink-driving and banned from driving his or her car.. because he or she was banned from driving cars, can still ride a moped!!!!!!! as u saying mopeds and cars have different rules to drive!!!
Man cars and moped r equally on the road. AND MOPED RIDERS HAVE SAME RESPONSIBILITES SAME AS a CAR DRIVER!!!
thx

seamus

Although it's good practice (I would say critical) for a rider to watch out for breaks in traffic that they are overtaking, they are not obliged to stop to allow vehicles out. In fact, no vehicle is obliged to stop before a yellow box unless they cannot proceed immediately through it. The moped rider in this case was perfectly in his rights to continue through the yellow box. It may have been poor riding practice on his part, but it was also poor driving practice on your part, and you were the one with the legal responsibility to yield to the moped. It was YOUR responsibility to ensure that you could safely proceed, not everyone else's responsibility to see you coming.

As for overtaking stationary vehicles - all vehicles are permitted identically to cross a broken white line for the purpose of overtaking a stationary vehicle (or vehicles). The difference is that a car takes up more space - if a car attempted the same thing, they would need to break the law to rejoin the traffic flow. You may only overtake provided that you can return to your side of the road in a timely manner and can perform the manouver without endangering other road users. Bikes can do this before lights. Cars can't.

cast_iron

Also, since the moped was overtaking on the other side of the road, they DIDN'T proceed through a yellow box. Your photograph is quite clear - the yellow box is only on one side of the road, and it's not the one you claim the moped was on.

On another note, text speak is generally frowned upon around here as it's a bit of a nuisance to read.

Tails142

you made the classic error of creaming a cyclist/motorcyclist when pulling across a lane of traffic - you should learn a lesson and keep an eye out in future as you're totally in the wrong; any driver worth his salt keeps an eye out in situations such as these.

Count yourself lucky, a mate of mine did a similar foolish thing, was pulling out a T-Junction, he had to cross two lanes of traffic to get across the road, nearest lane had stopped but the second lane was free, he pulled out fairly fast and creamed someone coming down the second, both cars were very badly smashed up - at least all you got was a scratch.

And report a dodgy claim if you think its the case

Jumpy

jonomono wrote:

hi guys
I need your advice. whose fault it would be when a car driver is turning right onto major road(2 way) and a moped rider overtaking the stopped cars at red traffic light by driving outside of broken middle white line, as approaching to a jucntion of red light, and ran into a car which turing right(from small road to major road) at the right hand side of the road(means on the right side of middle white broken line). all other cars on the major road r standstill as traffic light is red.

so whose fault it would be?
car driver's fault or moped rider's? r moped riders r allowed to overtake stopped cars by driving through wrong side of the road?

many thx in advance
jono

Just to make you aware that your post would be taken a lot more seriously if you put some effort into it and did not use text speak.
You received a lot of good replies in this thread, who put far more thought into their posts that you did.
It really isn't that hard to plan what you are going to say before typing it.
Text speak may be handy for a mobile phone, but it really takes the piss when you use it while typing with a full keyboard.
By the way. The Insurace company decides what she gets, and they are not stupid, if she was driving an earlier model of moped, they are not going to give her the value of a 07.

alias no.9

In a situation like this, i.e. traffic backed up from red traffic lights, is it not the case that a motor cylce is only allowed to pass the traffic on the outside if they are filtering, i.e. turning right? There is no right turn evident in the picture.
Even getting back to Seamus's point about passing stationary traffic, I would suggest that a motorcyclist or moped does not have enough room to merge back into the traffic before the lights, it is not sufficient to pull in alongside a car, it must be possible to pull fully into lane, i.e. either ahead of the line of traffic or in between two vehicles, i.e. one in front and one behind, in the same way that when you're passing a motorcyclist or cyclist, you're required to give them the full width of the lane they're travelling in and pass them in the next lane out or the oncoming lane. In practice this seems to get completely ignored by the majority of motorists when overtaking motorcyclists / cyclists and the majority of motorcyclists / cyclists when overtaking motorists but that doesn't make it right.
I still don't think it puts the OP in the clear, but there is a significant negligence on the part of the moped driver.

seamus

alias no.9 wrote:

In a situation like this, i.e. traffic backed up from red traffic lights, is it not the case that a motor cylce is only allowed to pass the traffic on the outside if they are filtering, i.e. turning right? There is no right turn evident in the picture.

Not strictly true. The manouver is effectively overtaking, not filtering - exactly like "overtaking" a vehicle parked on your side of the road. Provided that there's a broken white line, then overtaking the line of traffic is lawful.

Even getting back to Seamus's point about passing stationary traffic, I would suggest that a motorcyclist or moped does not have enough room to merge back into the traffic before the lights, it is not sufficient to pull in alongside a car, it must be possible to pull fully into lane, i.e. either ahead of the line of traffic or in between two vehicles, i.e. one in front and one behind

Well this is where the semantics come into play. Most of the time a motorcyclist will need to cross the white line at the lights, in order to rejoin the lane. Slightly contradicting myself, I would say that if at the time of the collision the moped was driving lawfully, then the OP is at fault. Whether the moped would break the law later on in his manouver doesn't matter. By that same token, if we replace the moped in the picture with an articulated truck, then the OP would still be in the wrong, even though there's no way for an artic to rejoin at the lights.

alias no.9

seamus wrote:

Not strictly true. The manouver is effectively overtaking, not filtering - exactly like "overtaking" a vehicle parked on your side of the road. Provided that there's a broken white line, then overtaking the line of traffic is lawful.

With the disclaimer of not having reviewed the text of the relevant legislation I have to disagree with you. Overtaking a queue of traffic stopped at traffic lights cannot be considered to be exactly like overtaking a vehicle parked on your side of the road. You'll also notice that immediately after the box junction, there is a ghost island or whatever you'd call it so the moped must, at the very least, merge back into the traffic on the correct side of the road before the end of the yellow box, without stopping on it.

seamus wrote:

Well this is where the semantics come into play. Most of the time a motorcyclist will need to cross the white line at the lights, in order to rejoin the lane. Slightly contradicting myself, I would say that if at the time of the collision the moped was driving lawfully, then the OP is at fault. Whether the moped would break the law later on in his manouver doesn't matter. By that same token, if we replace the moped in the picture with an articulated truck, then the OP would still be in the wrong, even though there's no way for an artic to rejoin at the lights.

I'm not saying the OP is not wrong, he quite clearly is for not observing and giving way to the traffic on the major road. I'm saying the moped is also wrong. I believe that in the situation of a queue of traffic, stopped at lights, it is not possible for any vehicle (from a moped to a monster truck) to overtake, within the confines of the law, because it is simply not possible to safely merge back into the lane they're travelling in, as required by law.

MrPudding

jonomono wrote:

well if bikers r allowed to ride through broken white line unless is safe to do so!!! then why not car drivers who stopped for me and who left yellow box clear for me to finish my turn, did the same thing. so as u saying then all car drivers are allowed to drive through white broken lines!!!!!!!!!!!
why they stop on a YELLOW BOX????????

Where would they go after clearing the yellow box?

jonomono wrote:

yellow box is made there for 'some special reason' and 'that reason' is obivious as moped rider is approaching towards the red traffic signal, that someone could drive into or out from yellow box.
and if moped rider had any consideration to driving rules, then she supposed to guess that a yellow box is ahead of her when all other cars are stopped on road and those car drivers arent just mad to stop!!!! they r stopped for a reason. that reason this moped rider never thought???

The yellow box does not give right of way to the person it is there to benefit, in this case you. The yellow box is there to allow you to turn onto the road, assuming your path is clear and it is safe to do so. Drivers are not obligated to stop before a yellow box unless they would be unable to clear it. The normal rules of the road apply.

jonomono wrote:

and specially when a moped rider riding bikes in zig-zag way.... means comin out from back of the cars!!!! how a motorist who is sitting low can see a moped when
a moped rider sitting at certain height(ofcourse higher than a car driver) cant see the car coming out of yellow box!!

I cannot speak for the moped rider, no one here know what they were able to see or not see. Whilst I may not agree completely with how they handled the junction, what they could or could not see is not as important to the liability as what you could or could not see. From what you are saying you seem to think that the moped rider, although she had right of way, should bear the liability as she *may* have been able to see more than you.

jonomono wrote:

moreover mopeds are same machines as other cars on the the roads.
so u mean mopeds r allowed to over take stationary cars but not other cars can overtake stationary cars through white broken line!!!!

Who said that?

jonomono wrote:

then i think that mean would if someone caught drink-driving and banned from driving his or her car.. because he or she was banned from driving cars, can still ride a moped!!!!!!! as u saying mopeds and cars have different rules to drive!!!

Where is this rubbish coming from?

jonomono wrote:

Man cars and moped r equally on the road. AND MOPED RIDERS HAVE SAME RESPONSIBILITES SAME AS a CAR DRIVER!!!
thx

Yes they do. They have a responsibility to operate their vehicles within the rules of the road. The moped rider appeared to do this. You main responsibility here was to ensure there was no oncoming traffic before you pulled out. You didn’t.

MrP

MrPudding

alias no.9 wrote:

With the disclaimer of not having reviewed the text of the relevant legislation I have to disagree with you. Overtaking a queue of traffic stopped at traffic lights cannot be considered to be exactly like overtaking a vehicle parked on your side of the road. You'll also notice that immediately after the box junction, there is a ghost island or whatever you'd call it so the moped must, at the very least, merge back into the traffic on the correct side of the road before the end of the yellow box, without stopping on it.



I'm not saying the OP is not wrong, he quite clearly is for not observing and giving way to the traffic on the major road. I'm saying the moped is also wrong. I believe that in the situation of a queue of traffic, stopped at lights, it is not possible for any vehicle (from a moped to a monster truck) to overtake, within the confines of the law, because it is simply not possible to safely merge back into the lane they're travelling in, as required by law.

I don't know the details of the Irish law but in UK law, there tends to be large overlap I find, a motorcyclist is permitted to overtake traffic waiting at a red pedestrian crossing light, withthe exception of the car at the front.

So unless there is a mad entry in the rules of the road that specifically says motorbikes cannot overtake cars stopped at a red light what she was doing at the time she was hit was perfectly legal.

MrP

seamus

alias no.9 wrote:

I'm not saying the OP is not wrong, he quite clearly is for not observing and giving way to the traffic on the major road. I'm saying the moped is also wrong. I believe that in the situation of a queue of traffic, stopped at lights, it is not possible for any vehicle (from a moped to a monster truck) to overtake, within the confines of the law, because it is simply not possible to safely merge back into the lane they're travelling in, as required by law.

This is where the debate on biking usually rages. There are no specific pieces of legislation that deal with it. More specifically, there is no piece of legislation (to the best of my knowledge) that says that two vehicles may not share a lane, provided that there is room for them to travel two abreast. So if the moped can rejoin the traffic lane, without crossing a solid white line (or in this case, a ghost island), then they haven't committed any road traffic offence. There is often enough room (just about) to fit a bike and a car in a traffic lane. There is also nothing specifically which prohibits travelling between lanes (the ROTR just says "Avoid" it), but it may fall under the heading of overtaking on the left and/or dangerous driving.

However travelling too close to another vehicle, whether it is behind or beside, may incur the wrath of the law under a number of other headings.

From experience, Gardai tend not to stop or charge bikes for overtaking lines of vehicles where there's a broken white line, unless the rider is wandering stupidly between cars and lanes.

Note that I'm not saying the moped rider was blameless. As someone else posted, the moped rider may very well be found partly at fault. There was however, no specific breach of the law by him. The OP on the other hand, did specifically commit a road traffic offence by failing to yield.

OldmanMondeo

Apart from all the legal arguments happening, the OP did say that the moped rider claimed her bike to be wrote off and could only replace this with a 07 model, This is not going to happen. If the OP is found to be fully at fault, then he will only have to pay for the damage or value of the 03 moped.

The only other arguement he could possibly use is that the rider was on the wrong side of the road at a junction, which will probably hold no water.

Hotblack Desiato

jonomono wrote:

well if bikers r allowed to ride through broken white line unless is safe to do so!!!

It was safe to do so, until you carelessly pulled out into their path.
Can you not accept this?
Everyone makes mistakes, thankfully they usually don't result in an accident.
The difference between a good driver and a dangerous one is that the good driver learns from their mistakes. The dangerous one keeps making them again and again.

yellow box is made there for 'some special reason' and 'that reason' is obivious as moped rider is approaching towards the red traffic signal, that someone could drive into or out from yellow box.

Yes, someone could, but they'd be breaking the law by not yielding to approaching traffic.

and if moped rider had any consideration to driving rules, then she supposed to guess that a yellow box is ahead of her when all other cars are stopped on road and those car drivers arent just mad to stop!!!! they r stopped for a reason. that reason this moped rider never thought???

What if they did see you, but expected you to give way to them as you were required to do?
Not very defensive riding, but understandable, and perfectly legal.

how a motorist who is sitting low can see a moped

Feeble excuse. You have a legal DUTY to observe other road users and yield to them if they have the right of way.

moreover mopeds are same machines as other cars on the the roads.
so u mean mopeds r allowed to over take stationary cars but not other cars can overtake stationary cars through white broken line!!!!

Cars can overtake on broken white lines too.
Your lack of knowledge of the rules of the road and the attitude you're displaying here towards other road users (who did nothing wrong just happened to be in your way) are both pretty worrying tbh.

then i think that mean would if someone caught drink-driving and banned from driving his or her car.. because he or she was banned from driving cars, can still ride a moped!!!!!!! as u saying mopeds and cars have different rules to drive!!!
Man cars and moped r equally on the road. AND MOPED RIDERS HAVE SAME RESPONSIBILITES SAME AS a CAR DRIVER!!!
thx

WTF was that all about? Honestly.

Fey!

Out of curiosity, can the OP take a pic from further back from the yellow box to show the broken line? Quite often the approaches to these boxes are a solid white line with a broken line at the box and a solid again after the box to try and avoid situations like the one above.

I'm not saying that the OP was in the right, but if could fall that neither was the moped driver; they tend to take more risks than your average motorcyclist in my experience.

Gumbo

imo the car driver is at fault here, i was doing the exact same thing a few months back on my bike and a car pulled straight out in exactly the same circumstances as this ans after all the argueing...police, insurance etc etc it was the cars fault.

you are pulling out of the minor road onto the major road and no matter what the situation is on the major road it is up to you to make sure that the way is clear of any vechiles so you can proceed onto the major road.

even if another car waves you out, still your fault.

while i do blame the car driver here, i dont condown the behaviour of the moped driver, surely the bile can be fixed up??

Savman

I can't make head nor tail of this...

ScouseMouse

Travelling up the canal on my dressed XS11 (a tank), I overtook on a broken white line a queue of traffic stopped at lights. One car stopped and waved out another car from a slip road. BANG! To cut a long story short. I was overtaking on a broken white line. He was joining from a lesser road and has to yield to traffic coming from the right or on the major road. He did not. Carole Nash legal cover supplied by Kent Carty, Parnell Sq got me 9000 irish pounds two years later, after a meeting in the big hall of the four courts.