Enda Kenny For Taoiseach??????

gandalf

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

nesf

gandalf wrote:

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

Personally I'd disagree. I've never liked Bertie as a speaker but Kenny is a very poor orator. He has trouble his keeping pace steady, doesn't sound natural when stressing words and he sounds like he's reading off a script (which is not a good thing for an orator). Kenny sounds forced, Bertie doesn't which is the difference for me.

Pat Rabitte is a far better speaker than either of them. Or Joe Higgins for that matter.

brianthebard

gandalf wrote:

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

Agree I've seen him speak a few times and he improves all the time. Ahern is still hemming and hawing throughout all his speeches.

nesf

nesf wrote:

Personally I'd disagree. I've never liked Bertie as a speaker but Kenny is a very poor orator. He has trouble his keeping pace steady, doesn't sound natural when stressing words and he sounds like he's reading off a script (which is not a good thing for an orator). Kenny sounds forced, Bertie doesn't which is the difference for me.

Remember John Bruton? His early attempts at oration were woefull.
There followed a metamorphasis where by everything was said sloooooower.
He obviously went to a coach.

Pat Rabitte is a far better speaker than either of them. Or Joe Higgins for that matter.

Both are excelent imho and neither have had the need to get public speaking coaching.
Kenny on the other hand needs it in the worst way.

I don't know what to make of Aherns oratory,it's clumsy at the best of times but I reckon theres a naked inteligence behind it (commonly known as bertiespeak and a phrase borrowed from sinn féin speak)-the naked inteligence being the ability to say a lot but say nothing at all.
You have to be clever to keep that up consistently.

spareman

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Didn't FG want to convert the land around Temple Bar into a large bus station, at the time?

Well maybe if we had listened to them, and put people before profit, we wouldn't be seeing the rush hour madness on O Connell street everyday, where we have 20/30 bus routes trying to pick up and drop off passengers in dangerous conditions, or the fact that buses have to use dangerous termini in the city center, putting lives at risk, as seen on the quays a few years ago.

In my opinion the present government are only interested in privatising essential public services rather than having to fund them and we are paying the price, public transport, hospitols, and schools have suffered under this government. I hold them responsible for the gap between rich and poor increasing dramaticly in the last 5 years, with the ssia scheme, and inflation, also benchmarking and wage agreements are increasing that gap further. It just amazes me to hear of millianares not paying a cent in tax, while people out there who struggle to pay there mortgage's are being hit with stealth taxes left right and center.

DeepBlue

Kenny has revitalised a party that seemed dead and buried five years ago and has made it a contender for Government along with Labour.
That displays that he has more than a sprinkling of political nous.
His performance with his keynote address at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis was considered impressive by many commentators and contrasted sharply with Berties insipid performance at his Ard Fheis so one can't really say he can't deliver a speech.

Kenny has won the credibility contest as the opinion polls show that a FG/Lab Government is the most likely outcome of the campaign so implicitly the voters have accepted the option of Kenny as Taoiseach.
He doesn't need to decisively win the Leader's debate - he just has to hold his own and not commit any major gaffes.

Lennoxschips

nesf wrote:

It's just a tad more complicated than that to be honest.

yeah, although i did rattle off all the other reasons as well...

nesf

Lennoxschips wrote:

yeah, although i did rattle off all the other reasons as well...

Yeah, sorry I meant to quote those as well.

nesf

Tristrame wrote:

Remember John Bruton? His early attempts at oration were woefull.
There followed a metamorphasis where by everything was said sloooooower.
He obviously went to a coach.

True. Coaches are part and parcel of this kind of thing.

Tristrame wrote:

Both are excelent imho and neither have had the need to get public speaking coaching.
Kenny on the other hand needs it in the worst way.

Agreed, I really think that's the difference in them. I've actually never been convinced that you can teach someone to speak affectively in public.

Tristrame wrote:

I don't know what to make of Aherns oratory,it's clumsy at the best of times but I reckon theres a naked inteligence behind it (commonly known as bertiespeak and a phrase borrowed from sinn féin speak)-the naked inteligence being the ability to say a lot but say nothing at all.
You have to be clever to keep that up consistently.

Bertie's oratory is strange alright. It's clumsy and not at all polished but he doesn't sound like someone who was taught to speak if you know what I mean. The problems with Bertie are "natural" where Kenny's are both natural and taught.

Dirk Gently

nesf wrote:

Bertie's oratory is strange alright. It's clumsy and not at all polished .

TBH I think this actually helps him. I think people identify with his "one of the people" image he likes to project. Most people don't follow politics and might not even follow all the points made in a political speech but they can identify with bertie because he's speaks like an ordinary Joe and is not viewed as being elite. The more polished the speaker the more he could distance himself from ordinary people. I reckon Pat Rabbitte has the right balance but I don't think Bertie or FF should be too worried about how Bertie is perceived, especially seen as how he's only going up against Kenny in the live debate next week. Berties style of oratory would only be shown up as a weak link if he was challenged by someone equal to Pat Rabbitte or Joe Higgins in a live debate (with help from a chair who didn’t let him stutter his way onto another subject when asked a hard question). I would have included Mick McDowell in there too except nobody takes him seriously anymore.

InFront

I don't think an awful lot of EK's oratory skills, nor is it an important trait in a leader.

Having said that, he has improved a lot, he comes across as very comfortable in personal interviews (and the Thursday debate, I would think) and informal situations as opposed to in front of a crowd of several hundred. The FG TV political broadcast is quite well delivered on his behalf.

Yes, there are better-spoken FG deputies like Richard Bruton or Olivia Mitchell, who demonstrate more explicit leadership skills than Kenny. But when you think about Enda Kenny's success in bringing the party back from the brink, and turning it around, clearly the party saw something valuable in him when they chose him to lead them into this election, that they knew would serve the party well. Because they were right, his coalition are leading in the polls.
In many ways I think Richard Bruton should be leading the party into Government in 2007, but I was wrong about Enda Kenny, and could well be wrong about Richard Bruton.

murphaph

With regards Ireland's economic transformation which began in the late 80's, people seem to be forgetting the Tallaght Strategy. I cannot in a million years see FF in opposition supporting an incumbent government for the betterment of the nation.

nesf

InFront wrote:

I don't think an awful lot of EK's oratory skills, nor is it an important trait in a leader.

Having said that, he has improved a lot, he comes across as very comfortable in personal interviews (and the Thursday debate, I would think) and informal situations as opposed to in front of a crowd of several hundred. The FG TV political broadcast is quite well delivered on his behalf.

Yes, there are better-spoken FG deputies like Richard Bruton or Olivia Mitchell, who demonstrate more explicit leadership skills than Kenny. But when you think about Enda Kenny's success in bringing the party back from the brink, and turning it around, clearly the party saw something valuable in him when they chose him to lead them into this election, that they knew would serve the party well. Because they were right, his coalition are leading in the polls.
In many ways I think Richard Bruton should be leading the party into Government in 2007, but I was wrong about Enda Kenny, and could well be wrong about Richard Bruton.

I'd disagree about it being unimportant, perhaps in an age of soundbites not as important as it once was but speeches from the party leaders will influence people on the party as a whole.


I completely agree about the Bruton vs Kenny thing though. For all his perceived lack of leadership skills Kenny (or at least his "bloc") have what it takes to pull an ailing party back into line which does count for something. My only problem is that I really can't see how he did it. I have heard though that he's very good one-to-one and this would help a lot in forming links with people and coaxing them around on an issue.

jmayo

What always gets me is the arguement trotted out that Enda and most of Fine Gael front bench have no experience so can't be trusted.
If you were to use that analogy with a soccer team, you would find Johnny Giles still playing for Ireland.

FF/PDs have been in power for last 10 years, so yes they have experience.

But in those ten years what have they achieved?
In the health service, why are people still on trolleys, why are there waiting lists for operations?
How come we now hear of somebody been gunned down in one of cities almost on a daily basis?
Why do we hear that our supposed top security prison is run by the prisoners sponsored by Carphone Warehouse and the local petshop?

Why do people have to spend more and more of their lives stuck in traffic trying to commute to and from towns/villages with no amnetities miles from their employment?

The more FF harp on about the lack of experience the other side has, the more they remind the voters that they have been in for far too long and have got wasteful, arrogant, complacent, stale, lacking in ideas and drive.

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

What always gets me is the arguement trotted out that Enda and most of Fine Gael front bench have no experience so can't be trusted.

I don't agree with that.

I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

I don't agree with that.
I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

Come on, so you reckon Charlie and co were a success in the 1980s?
Regarding last time of FG/Lab government, the boom that was to become the "Celtic Tiger" was only beginning 1996/1997, pre telecomms and ecomerce take off world wide.
No government, FG/Lab or FF have had the resurces available to the FF/PD regime over last ten years and look at the incompetence they have managed.

You can argue that we now have jobs (no immigration) and some new infrastructure.
But look at where the jobs are and the fact that they are in non-sustainable industry (and from your other posting on different threads I know where you stand on the housing bubble), look at the fact that the infrastrucutre projects come in late, way over budget and we are paying for them for years through tolls.
Look at the mess that is the health service and wastage of tax payers money on projects such as PPARS and e-voting.
Look at the future social consequences of the lack of proper planning that results in small villages becoming satelite commuter towns to Dublin overnight.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote:

I don't agree with that.

I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

Why do we end up talking about the 1980s?:rolleyes: The world has changed substantially since then and comparisons or even references to that time are pretty irrelevant. 1980 is also a time before some people on boards were even a twinkle in the eye.

There is truth in the argument that they don't have as much experience, seeing as FF have been in government for so long. But the added spin implies that they obviously can't be trusted.With FF getting hammered in many other areas,down in the polls and at serious risk of losing, it is a logical swipe. But the cupboard must be getting bare if that is all they have left.

jmayo

Ah come on now don't denegrate the 1980s.
There was the music, the fashion for charvet shirts, the fact we could barely afford a Lada never mind a BMeeer, the lovely trips abroad to get work rather than just take in the sights on our year long world tour, the long queues outside the US Embassy not in protest but in hope of blagging a green card much like our Mexican brethern on the Rio Grande border.

Ahh they were the days, and sure we still have reminders of them to this day, the health service been one that springs to mind.

Time Magazine

Getting a little bit back to the original topic, the "OMGZ don't you remember the 80's???!??cos0??" line is starting to bug me. It was a completely different demographic then, with different relations to other nations, with a different world economy. "FG were in power in the 80's and things weren't great therefore FG in power in 2007 is bad" logic can be argued against pretty easily.

Things were bad in the 80's. Enda Kenny became a Minister for a short period in the 90's and suddenly things picked up and have stayed great since. Using simple scientific fact, Enda Kenny as Taoiseach would make the entire economy pick up and stay great for another 10-15 years. Fact.

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

You can argue that we now have jobs (no immigration) and some new infrastructure.
look at the fact that the infrastrucutre projects come in late, way over budget and we are paying for them for years through tolls.
Look at the mess that is the health service and wastage of tax payers money on projects such as PPARS and e-voting.
Look at the future social consequences of the lack of proper planning that results in small villages becoming satelite commuter towns to Dublin overnight.

We have lots of immigration, and no emigration. That's a pretty good barometer of how a country is faring. After all, these are people who are staking their and their family's future on getting to the right country, as opposed to the likes of you and I talking glibly on a website, with all or biases and preconceptions.

You might quote a source for the sweeping overgeneralisation about all infrastructural matters.

The health service. It was a mess. The introduction of hundreds of thousands of people relying on the service can't have made things any easier. But things are improving. As for PPARS and evoting and traffic jams in West Dublin, I'll sleep tonight.

But either way, is the best that you can say about Enda is that the current crowd have made mistakes? That's hardly a ringing endorsement. You're argument could be used to say why Hanafin or D Ahern should be leader, or even Rabitte.

Victor Meldrew

Guys, the 80's are irrelevant for a number of reasons, firstly, FF messed up the economy buying the 1977 election, secondly , the world economy was in a slump, and thirdly FF were in power a lot then too. the turning point was the 1987 tallaght strategy when FG said that the FF government would be supported as long as it was acting in the national intterest and FG would not make political capital out of Mac Sharry's biting reforms of public spending.

Irrespective of your political hue (and I am a self confessed, dyed in the wool blueshirt) , any party who have been in power as long as FF (just skip the all too brief rainbow coalition in the mid 90's) need a period of "reflection" on the other side of the Dail, If FG get in I'll be calling for them to be put out to pasture in 10 years too.

Liam Byrne

Victor Meldrew wrote:

...any party who have been in power as long as FF (just skip the all too brief rainbow coalition in the mid 90's) need a period of "reflection" on the other side of the Dail, If FG get in I'll be calling for them to be put out to pasture in 10 years too.

Depends on what they manage to achieve in those 10 years; if they manage to put the country back on an even keel between privatisation/free market and quality of life and essential public services, then they can stay there for as long as they like, IMHO.

FF have had the most amazing period and cashflow EVER, and they still manage (and I use the term loosely, since they don't know the meaning of the word) to have most essential public services either privatised (not a problem) with stealth taxes and monopolies (serious problem) or at a third-world level.

Seriously overpriced houses are going up all over the place in all of our cities with no facilities, planning or infrastructure; rural services are non-existent and/or being closed down, leading even more people to move into the cities, making the problem even worse. Dublin Airport is over-congested and yet Shannon has to fight for its life because (among a million other reasons) there's no direct trains along the west coast from Galway or Kerry to get there, and most flights go from Dublin as a result.

In the meantime, Bertie runs ads asking people to volunteer for community organisations more :eek: listen, you feckin' anorak arsehole - no-one is more community-minded than I (I'm off to ref Community Games in a few mins) but that's in theory - I've no time to do any more after working 16 hours a day and THEN getting stuck in traffic; since you get cash for doing SFA (both from us and from your buddies) why dont' YOU start becoming more community-minded and do some work for nothing, instead of swanning off to Manchester "for nothing" and still getting paid ? :mad:

In fact, if I were in FG or an FG supporter, I'd want FF to stay in power so that they would have to deal with the mess they've created, because I think that if someone doesn't turn it around soon we'll be bollixed altogether within the next 10 years.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

We have lots of immigration, and no emigration. That's a pretty good barometer of how a country is faring.

You might quote a source for the sweeping overgeneralisation about all infrastructural matters.

The health service. It was a mess... But things are improving. As for PPARS and evoting and traffic jams in West Dublin, I'll sleep tonight.

Never sure about which one is which immigration/emigration??
Anyway how many of the Polish builders will be around in 5 years is a question worth asking especially if you have bought into the housing bubble economy?

Ok some of the projects came in on time and within budget (e.g M4 is one I believe) but don't forget that on those we are paying tolls for the next 20/30 years on top of the car related taxes we already pay.
Never mind the cock up that is Luas, over budget and late, two lines that do not meet, a bridge over M50 and a station/car park that are now been reworked because there was no planning done properly in the first place to consider future development of that junction.

Ah Conor sure since you live in South Kerry you have the benefit of JO'D to make sure you don't have to worry about the M50 and all the other so called great infrastructure achievements, like the million odd of us that live within the pale or 50 miles outside.

I could say typical FF, why would you lose any sleep over the wasted millions on PPARS or e-voting, it's not your money is it ?
But if you sit back and think you will find it is your money your FF leaders have pis**ed away. Think about that the next time you have to visit an A&E or you have a relative that needs an operation and is on a waiting list for over a year.

BTW has Jackie Healy Ray got the ould Carina out and about for the election?

stepbar

Deleted User wrote:

I don't agree with that.

I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

Ah Conor, I see your still trotting out the ould 80's line. Only a FF'er could have such a short memory :rolleyes: 77-81 anyone? If you are going to start accusing FG of wrecking the economy in the 80's, I'd suggest you look to 77 - 81 before you pass any further comment. TBH they werent left with much to work with after the mess FF left.

nesf

Ibid wrote:

Things were bad in the 80's. Enda Kenny became a Minister for a short period in the 90's and suddenly things picked up and have stayed great since. Using simple scientific fact, Enda Kenny as Taoiseach would make the entire economy pick up and stay great for another 10-15 years. Fact.

stepbar wrote:

Ah Conor, I see your still trotting out the ould 80's line. Only a FF'er could have such a short memory 77-81 anyone? If you are going to start accusing FG of wrecking the economy in the 80's, I'd suggest you look to 77 - 81 before you pass any further comment. TBH they werent left with much to work with after the mess FF left.

Only a FG'er could have a short enough memory to accuse a FF'er of having a short enough memory and point out 77-81 while forgetting about 73-77 where the economic meltdown began...

Neither of the main parties survived the debacle after the oil crises in the 70's and 80's without a lot of egg on their faces. I don't think it makes any sense to say either party left a mess for the other one, neither were prepared for the economic shocks that happened and it was only with the Tallaght strategy that both sided together and made the hard decisions needed to solve the mess. Neither can claim to have solved it alone and neither can blame the other one for the mess, to be honest about it.

28064212

nesf wrote:

Neither can claim to have solved it alone and neither can blame the other one for the mess, to be honest about it.

True. So everybody quit going on about how crappy the 80s were, they're irrelevant