This demonstrates what's wrong with society today.

Manic Moran

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/13314386/index.html

A frankly disturbing video from a Detroit CNN affiliate.

Shows a 91-year-old guy getting carjacked. Well, more accurately getting the ever-living crap senselessly beaten out of him as he's pinned in place by the car door, and then carjacked.

That's bad enough, until you look at the zoom-out video, and see the half-dozen people just standing back about 20 yards and watching as the guy's left for dead. It wasn't as if they're all small females either, one or two of the guys looked like they could take the chap on on their own, let alone with help.

It's one thing to watch the brutality. We all know that there are elements of society with twisted moral values and who are willing to prey on the weak. But it really disturbs me when purported 'good citizens' stand back and do nothing.

NTM

magick

i know watching it on the new the other day, pure scum baggery but the guy was caught thank God , however i would agree i felt like giving the on lookers a good kick up the arse o and the car jacker too

evil triumphs when good people do nothing (or as in this case useless idiots)

Judt

This has been a common phenomenon, about people standing back and watching another getting mugged in broad daylight. The richer and more secure we are, the less we want to risk getting a thump for the sake of helping somebody in need.

You tend to find the people who will help congregate in public services, ala the famous videos of firefighters and police officers rushing into the twin towers on 9/11 with everyone else streaming out.

biko

OP, I see you are in the US. When you say society do you refer to the world in general or the US?

OT - Psychologists call this the bystander effect. They say that a person is less likely to assist someone in need when other people are around. Ironically, the more witnesses there are, the less likely it is one will lend a hand.

That's because most people assume someone else will step up and take responsibility, so they don't have to. And research shows that, in an emergency, most people will wait to see what others do before offering to help.

"When an ambiguous event occurs, an individual bystander will be considerably influenced by the ways in which other bystanders are reacting," writes John Darley, a psychology professor at Princeton University and authority on the bystander effect.

This causes a kind of "pluralistic ignorance," he says, because everyone waits for someone else to take action yet no one is willing to step forward first.

Those same mechanisms are still common in today's society. Three years ago a Toronto bus driver was dragged onto the street and beaten by an angry passenger while his 8-year-old son watched in horror. There were 20 passengers on the bus at the time, but no one intervened. Instead, they all fled before the police could interview them.

Zambia

I saw a video taken from a banklink where a bloke pushed by two blokes on a bankling off dawson st and stephens green , robbed the woman who was at the link and they both turned around and left.

stovelid

In the US case, can all of you honestly say you would take a knife or a bullet to save somebody else's car?

I'm not saying I would just stand by myself but it's pointless to say exactly what you would do unless in the situation.

biko

I believe this is also an effect of cities being too large. If you don't know the person being attacked in front of you it means you're less inclined to risk life and limb. If it's a relative/ neighbour/ co-worker chances are you step in.

Also the more violent "society" gets the less inclined you are to try and stop it. If you save person A today person B is going to get killed in another car-jacking tomorrow or the day after. You get a sense of not being able to stop the onslaught and kinda just give up.

metrovelvet

It would be very easy for me to judge given that Im a "small female" and I know I couldnt do anything to stop it so I wouldnt have to make that decision.

The things is, we live in a world now where you dont know if someone will pull a knife or a gun out on you, so you let things happen because the risk is too high.

This has been on the news alot in the US, the old man getting mugged. When an old lady gets raped, or a senior citizen is a crime victim suddenly everyone is outraged and it makes the news, because it is assumed they are somehow less able to defend themselves, when in fact none of us can do it because you dont know what kind of weapon these **** bags have up their sleeves.

What strikes me lately is how saturated with violence American culture is lately. You can't flick the tv without seeing blood or guns or abuse.

brianthebard

Society today? Give me a break, you think people would go out of their way and risk injury or death for a stranger a hundred years ago? Two hundred? Humans by their nature do not enjoy confrontation, there may be a minority of people who would jump into a fight but I don't blame anyone for not wanting their heads kicked in.

stovelid

To take it further, there are situations where you would be compelled to intervene, witnessing a sexual assault or serious hiding etc but what is with people that try and intervene during shop robberies and so on?

I couldn't think of a more stupid thing to take a knife or syringe in the side for..

Zambia

stovelid wrote:

To take it further, there are situations where you would be compelled to intervene, witnessing a sexual assault or serious hiding etc but what is with people that try and intervene during shop robberies and so on?

I couldn't think of a more stupid thing to take a knife or syringe in the side for..

Hey if they want to do it and they are not endangering anyone else i see no reason to stop them.

If someone steps outside the law seriously then they should not feel safe from the general populace. Its is within a citizens right to detain another citizen for a felony. While understanding if somone decides to not take up that right I would not criticise people that do.

Judt

stovelid wrote:

In the US case, can all of you honestly say you would take a knife or a bullet to save somebody else's car?

I'm not saying I would just stand by myself but it's pointless to say exactly what you would do unless in the situation.

Criminals in Ireland don't carry knives now?

therecklessone

stovelid wrote:

To take it further, there are situations where you would be compelled to intervene, witnessing a sexual assault or serious hiding etc but what is with people that try and intervene during shop robberies and so on?

I couldn't think of a more stupid thing to take a knife or syringe in the side for..

Mate of mine intervened in a sexual assault, ended up facing assault charges of his own (on the rapist)...would have lost his job if convicted, thankfully the charges were dropped.

Makes one stop and think.

stovelid

Zambia232 wrote:

Hey if they want to do it and they are not endangering anyone else i see no reason to stop them.

If someone steps outside the law seriously then they should not feel safe from the general populace. Its is within a citizens right to detain another citizen for a felony. While understanding if somone decides to not take up that right I would not criticise people that do.

I didn't advocate stopping them. I just said I think it's dumb to risk your life to save AIB or Spar a few quid but that's just me.

edit: This bitter view might stem from being held up when working through college. I only gave out half the money from the till (dumb I know) and still had to work to the end of the shift once the police statements were made etc.

@judt. If you're not being facetious, I don't profess to know the exact Irish crime to weapon ratio.

Zambia

stovelid wrote:

I didn't advocate stopping them. I just said I think it's dumb to risk your life to save AIB or Spar a few quid but that's just me.

edit: This bitter view might stem from being held up when working through college. I only gave out half the money from the till (dumb I know) and still had to work to the end of the shift once the police statements were made etc.

Oh no you where dead right here not to do anything (and as you admit silly to keep the cash from them). At the piont of a gun I would hand over me jocks if asked.

I would only say intervene where you have at least a good chance of success. And of course on your own head be it.

Manic Moran

OP, I see you are in the US. When you say society do you refer to the world in general or the US?

I seem to recall a couple of years ago a rape happened in daylight on D'Olier St next to O' Connell Bridge, (under the big Heineken sign) and people just ignored it and walked on. I would submit that it is a failing in many Western countries, not just the US.

OT - Psychologists call this the bystander effect.

Interesting. Makes a bit of sense, but one would still hope that one's moral values would come to the fore.

In the US case, can all of you honestly say you would take a knife or a bullet to save somebody else's car?

The wasn't a case of saving someone's car. This was a case of someone who was older than I'm likely to live getting viciously brutalised in a potentially lethal manner.

Also the more violent "society" gets the less inclined you are to try and stop it. If you save person A today person B is going to get killed in another car-jacking tomorrow or the day after. You get a sense of not being able to stop the onslaught and kinda just give up.

There are, fortunately, exceptions. Bank robbery in Virginia yesterday, the robber had shot four people, killing two, before even saying 'give me the money.' Presumably just to make a point. Customer who was armed (in violation of the bank's gun-free-zone policy, so we're waiting to see if they close his account) produces his firearm and intervenes.

Similarly, two days ago, a chap shot a cop (and then ran him over). Passer-by, who had a four-year-old son with him, picked up the trooper's sidearm, and shot him.

Society today? Give me a break, you think people would go out of their way and risk injury or death for a stranger a hundred years ago? Two hundred?

A little under 200 years ago, a chap named Sir Robert Peel founded the first modern police force. His 7th Principle of Policing reads thusly:

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence

Assuming he was not totally disconnected from the realities of life back then, it seems that he expected people to go out of their ways when they see crimes in progress..

NTM

brianthebard

Thank you for lecturing me on the Peace Preservation Force. :rolleyes: However the fact of the matter is that the PPF were set up in response to a lack of policing by society, not because the people were doing a good job. If they had been, would it make any sense to set up a police force?

Zambia

Correct me if I am wrong here but isnt it against the law in Ireland to not report a crime. However I do believe this is not enforced.

Manic Moran

brianthebard wrote:

However the fact of the matter is that the PPF were set up in response to a lack of policing by society, not because the people were doing a good job. If they had been, would it make any sense to set up a police force?

People have their own problems. How many people are going to come home from the mill, kiss their kid, and then instead of sleeping and resting for the next workday, start patrolling the streets of Victorian London to see if any crimes are being comitted?

Yes, societal policing was inadequate, but that does not mean that there was not still an expectation that if there were an incidental encounter with crime that citizens would not do anything. Over in the US, back in ye olden Wilde West days, when the Sheriff wanted a posse, it was private citizens who would rally to the call.

NTM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i'm trying to find links on google, but I can't.. wasn't there a woman in america (i think it was new york) who was chased naked, bloody and screaming down a busy street by a guy with an axe and everyone on the street just stared, no one helped her

anyone got a link to this story? I'm pretty sure it's real but I can't pull anything up

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote:

Yes, societal policing was inadequate, but that does not mean that there was not still an expectation that if there were an incidental encounter with crime that citizens would not do anything. Over in the US, back in ye olden Wilde West days, when the Sheriff wanted a posse, it was private citizens who would rally to the call.

NTM

I remember chasing three blokes from a banklink who had assaulted me... on the run a bloke helped me out but admitted later he thought I just wanted to kick the crap out of some foriegner???

Call Me Jimmy

What a fcuking coward. Hope he burns eternally. Big up the old man, he wasn't hysterical in the interview or anything. In fairness to the crowd they wouldn't have known whether he had a gun or a knife or whatever. That would be the only thing that would have stopped me doing anything.

brianthebard

Manic Moran wrote:

People have their own problems. How many people are going to come home from the mill, kiss their kid, and then instead of sleeping and resting for the next workday, start patrolling the streets of Victorian London to see if any crimes are being comitted?

So why is it different if the crime is in front of you? I mean we know that crimes are committed every night, we are aware of that in the same way as the people in the video were aware a crime was being committed, yet in one case you expect people to go vigilante and in another you don't?

Yes, societal policing was inadequate, but that does not mean that there was not still an expectation that if there were an incidental encounter with crime that citizens would not do anything. Over in the US, back in ye olden Wilde West days, when the Sheriff wanted a posse, it was private citizens who would rally to the call.
NTM

I don't think militia's are a good example of society policing itself.

Manic Moran

wasn't there a woman in america (i think it was new york) who was chased naked, bloody and screaming down a busy street by a guy with an axe and everyone on the street just stared, no one helped her

Frankly, that's so bizarre that if I were to see it, I'd think it a movie being filmed, or some form of Candid Camera skit and do nothing myself.

I mean we know that crimes are committed every night, we are aware of that in the same way as the people in the video were aware a crime was being committed, yet in one case you expect people to go vigilante and in another you don't?

I dispute the analogy. The one case requires that the citizen actively go out of his way to seek a crime to thwart, the other is one where the crime has come to him in the course of his minding his own business. We now have a police force to do the former and a citizen should not be expected to do so. I do not believe that the existance of a police force if not physically present at the time should absolve one of community responsibility in the latter if action is practicable.

I don't think militia's are a good example of society policing itself.

Why not? It is at the least an example of citizens taking action in support of law and order. What is wrong with the populace responding to an appeal for assitance from the constabulary to help the constable, who society appointed to do the job, carrying out the job society appointed him to do? Is this any different from citizens taking action in a search-and-rescue in a forest, helping the rescue teams who we pay to conduct such operations full-time?

NTM

gurramok

To the OP, its a combination of the law stacked in favour of the criminal and the fear of of the criminal would take out a gun that prevents people from intervening.
If i had witnessed that in Ireland, i would of intervened myself as the chance of the assailant producing a gun is hell of alot lower than in the US.

If he had a knife, I could get stabbed(less of a chance being fatal than a gunshot), but i know that i would have the element of surprise to frighten him off plus other bystanders would join in(they got courage from my leadership!) before any injury can be inflicted.

If i did intervene and injure the assailant, i would be guaranteed to be prosecuted myself as the law is stacked in favour of the criminal.

Only way out of that is just to run off after doing the good deed, its a sad situation, ain't it?

Hobbes

Mordeth wrote:

i'm trying to find links on google, but I can't..p

These type of things are reported in many countries. I remember years ago a documentry on the london tube violence where one woman was beaten and raped during rush hour with people in the car for nearly the whole journey and not one person did anything to stop it.

It is a weird thing though. I've experienced it years ago when walking up to a bus stop some old guy at the bus stop even from a distance clearly looked like something was wrong. He held onto the bus stop then keeled over. Not one person checked him, if anything they moved away. By the time I got there I walked into the nearby building and told the guy in there to ring an ambulance. I then went out to check to see if he was ok no one helped in anyway. It was only when a special branch car pulled up and asked was he ok and I explained there was an ambulance on its way that people started to do anything. When the Ambulance got there most of those who stood around ignoring him were all "im in charge" attitude and "oh dear I hope he is ok", etc. One even had the nerve to say he watched the whole thing and was getting annoyed that no one was going to help him.

The funny thing is that someone could of walked up, robbed him and not one person would of blinked.

Also I have seen the other side of it. Sitting in a bus and on the side of the road this guy is having a go at a woman. Thought he was trying to mug her they were both screaming at each other. Some young lad walks up and says "Are you ok missus?" while holding the guys arm and they both turned around and told him to mind his own fuking business.

stovelid

Hobbes wrote:

Also I have seen the other side of it. Sitting in a bus and on the side of the road this guy is having a go at a woman. Thought he was trying to mug her they were both screaming at each other. Some young lad walks up and says "Are you ok missus?" while holding the guys arm and they both turned around and told him to mind his own fuking business.

This happens so often. My mate cames across a guy holding a girl against a wall and really screaming and shaking her. With bouncers across the road just watching. Without thinking, he gave the offending fella a dig. Bit OTT of the mate, I agree, and the girl started screaming at my mate. Must have been her boyfriend or something.

Zambia

Oh domestic never interfere...

Oh and running of arfterwards is not that bad a solution

oscarBravo

brianthebard wrote:

Society today? Give me a break, you think people would go out of their way and risk injury or death for a stranger a hundred years ago?

It was utterly accepted in Victorian society that if someone attacked you, you called for help and bystanders would immediately join in the fray.

liamdubh

Manic Moran wrote:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/13314386/index.html

A frankly disturbing video from a Detroit CNN affiliate.

Shows a 91-year-old guy getting carjacked. Well, more accurately getting the ever-living crap senselessly beaten out of him as he's pinned in place by the car door, and then carjacked.

That's bad enough, until you look at the zoom-out video, and see the half-dozen people just standing back about 20 yards and watching as the guy's left for dead. It wasn't as if they're all small females either, one or two of the guys looked like they could take the chap on on their own, let alone with help.

It's one thing to watch the brutality. We all know that there are elements of society with twisted moral values and who are willing to prey on the weak. But it really disturbs me when purported 'good citizens' stand back and do nothing.

NTM

If I was in the US and something similar happened I'd worry about being gunned down. Over here, I'd like to think I'd help in a situation like that.

metrovelvet

Well,in a culture [Ireland] where the cops dont like to get involved, ie domestics or street fights, you can hardly expect the civilians to.