A sad day....

RalphCifaretto

Zambia232 wrote:

While seeing your piont I doubt your that worried about the opinion of the Nothern Unionist Community.

I don't know where you got that impression but, either way, it doesn't really compromise my standpoint.

Zambia

No you are right it doesnt

Rock Climber

RalphCifaretto wrote:

It is undisputable fact that the four men qualified for release under the GFA.

Bull. It's probably much more accurate to say they got onto HQ asap and said what are yez doing lads...Claim US or we'll be done for life.
Thats underlined by the "confusion" over what to say about the shooting at the time.

the southern supreme court upheld their status as qualifying prisoners, there is absolutely no confusion about it.

yeah now... and right

None of the adare killers "demands" as put by their counsel were up held by the supreme court and it had the power to do so if it saw fit.Their counsel said

They claim the refusal of early release breaches their rights under the Constitution, the Belfast Agreement and the European Convention on Human Rights, and unjustly discriminates against them.

They say the failure to release them involves the application of a "consistent government policy" that the prisoner release scheme will not apply to any person involved in the incident in Co Limerick in 1996 in which Det McCabe was killed and his colleague, Det Garda Ben O'Sullivan, was injured.

In submissions on their behalf earlier today, Mr Patrick Dillon-Malone BL argued that the two men could not be excluded from the early release scheme except by legislation to that effect.

The absence of such legislation meant failure to specify the men as qualifying prisoners was unlawful and breached their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, he said.

link Nausiating stuff.
Even more nausiating is the apologism I have to read here.
If your murdering friends (lets call a spade a spade as Dec McCabes gun was in his holster as he lay dead riddled with bullets) had the cop on to be on official duty from the start rather than botch up a nixer like the adare robbery then they might have had some case.

As regards the intimidation of witnesses...
Of course we'll never know but I'll bet theres two camps of opinion on that one.
The apologists will say prove it and the rest of us will exhibit that we weren't born yesterday and say there was.

RalphCifaretto

It's astounding the number of people on here who are completely incapable of raional discourse.

None of the adare killers "demands" as put by their counsel were up held by the supreme court and it had the power to do so if it saw fit.Their counsel said

The Government had the legal right to refuse the release. I have never once questioned that. In fact, that is precisely my problem.

The supreme court did accept that the prisoners qualified as eligible for release under the criteria set down in the agreement. I can't seem to find a link, but I'm 100% certainof this.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote:

Considering he was a qualifying prisoner under the GFA he should have been released years ago. I wish him all the best for the future.

The courts thought otherwise.

As I've said before, SF and the IRA wanted this both ways; it was initially an unauthorised operation (so that it didn't impact on their "cessation of violence") and so the thugs involved were hung out to dry.

Later, when they thought we'd forgotten about that, they said that it was "authorised at a lower level", and so they should qualify for early release.

They failed to emphasise that if it were authorised (in order for them to qualify) then by implication the ceasefire had not been upheld, so they (both the thugs involved and the "republican movement" as a whole) would be entitled to SFA.

So essentially, anyone who proposes that they SHOULD qualify is thereby saying that the ceasefire and cessation of violence was broken.

So which is it, guys ?

Sand

to refuse their release while at the same time urging northern unionists to accept the GFA is an absolute farce. It completely undermined the entire process in my eyes.

Well, in the eyes of Northern Unionism the unconditional release of convicted murderers and terrorists completely undermined the entire process in their eyes. Hence the collapse of the UUP and the rise of the DUP, until that point fringe lunatics. Perhaps if they had taken a similar line, mainstream unionism could have been kept in the process and the past 10 years wouldnt have been wasted?

Either way, the Republics laws and enforcement of them should not be unduly influenced by events in the United Kingdom. I dont see any issue with supporting a political process for Northern Ireland and not implementing the exact same process in the Republic. There is a border after all. For the record, I believe early release to be entirely unjust. There is a realpolitick argument for it in the United Kingdom, but I fail to see one in the Republic. We have not had 30 years of intercommunal violence, murder and strife.

So in short, feck their claims for early release. They got off lightly, very very lightly. They should have got murder and life, for whatever that is worth. McDowell is to be congratulated on refusing to release them even a day earlier than he has to.

RalphCifaretto

Either way, the Republics laws and enforcement of them should not be unduly influenced by events in the United Kingdom.

Under the provisions of the GFA, Republican prisoners in the south were as eligibile for early release as their northern counterparts. Although I'm sure you are fully aware of that and are just fishing for a bite.

Colonel Sanders

Liam Byrne wrote:

As I've said before, SF and the IRA wanted this both ways; it was initially an unauthorised operation (so that it didn't impact on their "cessation of violence") and so the thugs involved were hung out to dry.....

So essentially, anyone who proposes that they SHOULD qualify is thereby saying that the ceasefire and cessation of violence was broken.

So which is it, guys ?

the IRA was not on ceasefire when the adare incident took place.

Sand

Under the provisions of the GFA, Republican prisoners in the south were as eligibile for early release as their northern counterparts. Although I'm sure you are fully aware of that and are just fishing for a bite.

And as Im sure youre aware, its entirely up to the Minister of Justice if early release should be granted or not. The UK made a decision regarding their prisoners, and thankfully for all concerned [even the prisoners perhaps, a few years behind bars for murder and terrorism doesnt seem to hurt any SF TDs career afterall] McDowell made a different one. Like I said, I think every law abiding citizen of the Republic who has a sense of justice will congratulate him on that.

FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote:

The courts thought otherwise.

Nope, the courts acknowledged that they were qualifying prisoners under the terms of the GFA but that only the Minister for Justice had the discretion to release them, which he didn't, in contravention of the GFA.

As I've said before, SF and the IRA wanted this both ways; it was initially an unauthorised operation (so that it didn't impact on their "cessation of violence") and so the thugs involved were hung out to dry.

Wrong again, the IRA was not on ceasefire at the time and therefore the GFA applied to them as much as anyone else. Mícheál Caraher from South Armagh (of sniper fame) was released early for offenses committed after the Adare robbery.

Later, when they thought we'd forgotten about that, they said that it was "authorised at a lower level", and so they should qualify for early release.

The robbery was not for personal gain, any IRA Volunteer who uses IRA weapons for such purposes faces strict disciplanary procedures.

So essentially, anyone who proposes that they SHOULD qualify is thereby saying that the ceasefire and cessation of violence was broken.

There was no ceasefire at the time so your point is entirely irrelevant and inaccurate.

Villain

Sand wrote:

And as Im sure youre aware, its entirely up to the Minister of Justice if early release should be granted or not. The UK made a decision regarding their prisoners, and thankfully for all concerned [even the prisoners perhaps, a few years behind bars for murder and terrorism doesnt seem to hurt any SF TDs career afterall] McDowell made a different one. Like I said, I think every law abiding citizen of the Republic who has a sense of justice will congratulate him on that.

So we should be allowed pick and choose what parts of the GRA are implemented?

I didn't see you posting here about the release of James Morgan's killer, ah wait that wouldn't allow you to post against SF or the IRA and lets get get real here it thats all this is to you if you were really concerned about the lives of those killed during the troubles you would be posting about early release on both sides of the divide but instead you only post about the side you want to bash.

Which is fine but lets call a spade a spade here Sand, if James Morgan had of been murdered by an IRA member in the Republic after the killing of Garda McCabe and had been convicted of murder and sent to jail and was then released within 2 years you would on here shouting about it but because it happened in Northern Ireland and it was Loyalist you couldn't care less.

Rock Climber

Shhhsh irish1 ! the ira would never murder people,they were freedom fighters...

stovelid

FTA69 wrote:

The robbery was not for personal gain, any IRA Volunteer who uses IRA weapons for such purposes faces strict disciplanary procedures.

Phew, I thought it was for personal gain. That's grand so.

BTW, I thought I read somewhere before that not engaging Gardai (or southern forces in general) was another IRA standing order?

edit: found it, General Army Order No. 8

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Shhhsh irish1 ! the ira would never murder people,they were freedom fighters...

What has that got to do with my post above???

Of course the IRA have murdered people, where in my post have I said any different, have a read again because the point may equally apply to you as it does to Sand

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

The robbery was not for personal gain, any IRA Volunteer who uses IRA weapons for such purposes faces strict disciplanary procedures.

What robbery was that, exactly? No robbery took place that day; not even an attempted robbery from what I've been able to establish.

Two Gardaí, while sitting in their car, were rammed from behind. The occupants of the ramming jeep jumped out and riddled the Gardaí with bullets from automatic weapons, and were then driven away.

Sounds more like a hit than a robbery to me. But hey, as long as it wasn't for personal gain, then that's ok. Right?

burnedfaceman

FiscalAvenger wrote:

http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2007/05/michael-oneill-welcome-home-from.html


A big welcome home from Sinn Fein for a cop killer who has been "imprisoned" in luxury for eight years.

Don't forget to mention it to the next SF campaigner on your doorstep.

its disgraceful, you would swear that scumbag had been wrongfully imprisoned or the like on reading the description. provo scum

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

What has that got to do with my post above???

Of course the IRA have murdered people, where in my post have I said any different, have a read again because the point may equally apply to you as it does to Sand

sarcasm.

Victor Meldrew

FiscalAvenger wrote:

http://ograshinnfein.blogspot.com/2007/05/michael-oneill-welcome-home-from.html


A big welcome home from Sinn Fein for a cop killer who has been "imprisoned" in luxury for eight years.

Don't forget to mention it to the next SF campaigner on your doorstep.

Good god that really reveales the warped mind of many SF members. Since when was raiding pensions whilst your "army" are on ceasefire an act that would make you a "POW". what drivel :mad: .

that raid was not condoned or by SF or IRA at the time and is now earning the guy "POW" status.

Thanks for publicising this Fiscal, it's nauseating.

Colonel Sanders

'We call for the abolition of so called criminal records for those convicted, many in diplock courts, for playing their part in the freedom struggle.'

yes, what a way to strike a blow for irish freedom. The adare incident definately brought unity forward at least 5 years.

disgusting.

Sand

So we should be allowed pick and choose what parts of the GRA are implemented?

Sure, why not? SFIRA took their time implementing the GFA, dont see why the Republic should rush. As far as Im concerned, the prisoner releases came far too early in the process, removing an important piece of leverage on the Provos and alienating mainstream unionism in one fell swoop. Better if it had been phased or linked directly to Provo delivering on the GFA.

I wouldnt even have let them out for another good few years for the murder of Garda so count your blessings Irish1.

I didn't see you posting here about the release of James Morgan's killer

James Morgan's killer isnt running for seats in my government, nor are parties in my government wheeling and dealing to get his killer of the hook. As I understand it Billy Wright, who authorised the murder, is dead whereas the Provo leadership that authorised the murder of McCabe are sitting in local government in the UK and running for election in the Republic.

And as I stated above - I dont agree with early release and certainly not the way it was implemented. Its you calling for the early release of scumbags and terrorists. Not me. I say leave them to rot tbh.

Which is fine but lets call a spade a spade here Sand, if James Morgan had of been murdered by an IRA member in the Republic after the killing of Garda McCabe and had been convicted of murder and sent to jail and was then released within 2 years you would on here shouting about it but because it happened in Northern Ireland and it was Loyalist you couldn't care less.

See above - I consider Adams and Wright, Loyalism and Republicanism, LVF and IRA to be two sides of the same coin. Both scumbags, both undeserving of anything but contempt.

Now if you want to come out and demonstrate your non SFIRA credentials feel free to agree with that statement. Youve equated the crimes, now equate the scumbags behind them.

Oh btw Irish1, youll be glad to know the gulf between your views and SFIRA policy are narrowing. Newsreports today indicate the grassroots of SFIRA and TDs like that Caoivn/Kevin/whatever chap disagree with Adams and want to remain outside any government for the forseeable future. Im sure though theres a whole host of other vast differences on critical issues that ensure youll be voting PDs this time around.

Villain

Sand wrote:

Sure, why not? SFIRA took their time implementing the GFA, dont see why the Republic should rush. As far as Im concerned, the prisoner releases came far too early in the process, removing an important piece of leverage on the Provos and alienating mainstream unionism in one fell swoop. Better if it had been phased or linked directly to Provo delivering on the GFA.

I wouldnt even have let them out for another good few years for the murder of Garda so count your blessings Irish1.

There is a major difference between taking your time to implement parts of the agreement and not implementing them at all and if the killers of Garda McCabe had been not been entitled to early release under the GFA I agree they should serve their full sentences but I'm dealing with the FACTS, I don't know how many times I have had to state that btw.

Sand wrote:

James Morgan's killer isnt running for seats in my government, nor are parties in my government wheeling and dealing to get his killer of the hook. As I understand it Billy Wright, who authorised the murder, is dead whereas the Provo leadership that authorised the murder of McCabe are sitting in local government in the UK and running for election in the Republic.

What Killer of Garda McCabe is running for a seat?

What members of the Provo leadership that authorised the murder of McCabe is running for election in the Republic, come on prove that point now don't just give me sound bites give me actual proof to back up that statement.

Sand wrote:

And as I stated above - I dont agree with early release and certainly not the way it was implemented. Its you calling for the early release of scumbags and terrorists. Not me. I say leave them to rot tbh.

I'm not calling for their release I'm stating they are entitled to early release under the terms of the GFA, again I am dealing with facts not myths.

Sand wrote:

See above - I consider Adams and Wright, Loyalism and Republicanism, LVF and IRA to be two sides of the same coin. Both scumbags, both undeserving of anything but contempt.

Now if you want to come out and demonstrate your non SFIRA credentials feel free to agree with that statement. Youve equated the crimes, now equate the scumbags behind them.

So why didn't you post about the early release of James Morgan's killer?

Gerry Adams has done more for the peace process on this Island in the last 20 years than any other republican, as I have said here many many times you can live in the past or you can move forward, Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have moved forward with Adams and Paisley to form a powersharing agreement but let me guess you think Adams and Paisley should be locked up and there should be no powersharing?

Sand wrote:

Oh btw Irish1, youll be glad to know the gulf between your views and SFIRA policy are narrowing. Newsreports today indicate the grassroots of SFIRA and TDs like that Caoivn/Kevin/whatever chap disagree with Adams and want to remain outside any government for the forseeable future. Im sure though theres a whole host of other vast differences on critical issues that ensure youll be voting PDs this time around.

I was posting my opinion that SF don't have the experience in the Republic to go into Government at the moment, if someone else agrees with that does mean I support SF and the IRA?

Ah for fecks sake,this is the same old crapola that has been done to death pardon the pun in several threads.

The link posted on the previous page lauding the return of these "heroes" as released prisoners of war is enough to turn my stomach to be honest.
They were not and are not POW's.

That mindset is so far away from most peoples it's truly nauseating.

Ending this thread now.