Bertie Vs Enda

bget

Sposs wrote:

It's not a matter of simple throwing more and more money at the problems of health and crime, it needs a detailed strategic plan that will maximise resources, this is something FF are working on and needs more time.

Finna Fail have had ten years and show no sign of strategic planning. On more than one occasion during the debate Enda rightly pointed out finna fail's complete and utter lack of strategic planning to the point of not just throwing money at problems but in fact wasting money.. Fine gael and labour show that a stategic plan is forefront on their minds.

At th end of the day i think one of Enda's man selling points is the fact that he's willing to be accountable for his and thus the entire governments actions. He has more than once publicaaly announced that he will not seek re-election if he fails to meet any of his promises.. What more do we need..

bget

bget wrote:

He has more than once publicaaly announced that he will not seek re-election if he fails to meet any of his promises.. What more do we need..

More than a politican's pre-election promise? :eek:

Some grasp of the detail would have been welcome. Anyone can fire out promises.

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

More than a politican's pre-election promise? :eek:

Some grasp of the detail would have been welcome. Anyone can fire out promises.

Like these ones from the FF 2002 manifesto. All delivered are they? Get the old brush out and sweep before your glasshouse.;)

In Government, Fianna Fáil will:
• Implement the National Health Strategy, through a coordinated multi-annual
programme of service development.
• further develop the our hospital system in order to ensure that they will have
the capacity to treat people within new national guidelines for maximum
waiting times.
• expand public hospital beds in line with a programme to increase total
capacity by 3,000 during the period of the Strategy.
• Permanently end waiting lists in our hospitals within two years through a
combination of bed capacity, primary care, secondary care and targeted reform
initiatives.
• reform the system of planning and funding our hospitals to ensure that the
needs of people in all parts of the country are addressed, and that public
funding is producing the highest possible level and quality of care.
• improve the staffing of our hospitals by expanding the number of nurses
working in key professional positions, hiring additional consultants and more
health professionals, especially in priority areas, including general practice
and emergency facilities.
• Implement a full range of measures to improve Accident and Emergency
Services by significantly reducing waiting times and having senior doctors
available at all times.
• give hospitals extra resources where they can specifically show how, as a
result, they can treat more patients in a more efficient way.
• A set of national quality protocols will also be developed which will require
that all patients, irrespective of where they live, receive the quality of care
which they require.
• End waiting lists for appropriate care places for people with disabilities.
• implement a major reform and development of primary care services. As a
starting point, 24-hour GP cover will be extended throughout the country by
implementing a new co-operative and out-of-hours service.
• We will also develop a network of primary care centres where general
practitioners, community health nurses, physiotherapists and other
professionals will work together to improve care available to all groups.
• Extend medical card eligibility to over 200,000 extra people, with a clear
priority being given to families with children.
• Develop community facilities for the elderly, including community nursing
units, in such a way as to actively promote independence.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

Get the old brush out and sweep before your glasshouse.;)

But that's the point I was making.

I don't trust anyone's pre-election promise, Ahern, Kenny, Rabbitte, none of them.

They are politicians, not Popes. These are manifestos. Would bget raise a mortgage on the strength of Enda's promise?

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

But that's the point I was making.

I don't trust anyone's pre-election promise, Ahern, Kenny, Rabbitte, none of them.

They are politicians, not Popes. These are manifestos. Would bget raise a mortgage on the strength of Enda's promise?

Hey man, you are out canvassing and not tell us that you don't trust election promises! What are you telling the folks on the doorstep? The only thing that seems to be going well is *the economy* as in "we have the country awash with money" but where are the things we are paying for. Adequate health, public transport, schools etc?

As far as you closing comment is concerned, I took out a mortgage when Jack Lynch was making promises. Is that a help?

bget

Deleted User wrote:

I don't trust anyone's pre-election promise, Ahern, Kenny, Rabbitte, none of them.

They are politicians, not Popes. These are manifestos. Would bget raise a mortgage on the strength of Enda's promise?

The point i was actually trying to make even if i didn't articulate it very well is that I think Enda has shown himself to be different to the polititians that we all know and distrust...

bget

bget wrote:

The point i was actually trying to make even if i didn't articulate it very well is that I think Enda has shown himself to be different to the polititians that we all know and distrust...

As a FF card carrying member I would put my hands up and say that certainly Enda's integrity is beyond question. He does stand out from many others in that regard. But personal integrity still doesn't convince me that he will stick by his promises, though I believe he may want to. I suspect in an ideal world all parties would stick by their manifestos, after all who doesn't want better health systems and lower crime rates and an end to world poverty?

bget

Yes I see your point. I honestly do feel that Enda has what it takes. He's new and despite Bertie's claim's of still having the same zest for it that he had ten years ago i think thats impossible. I think that Enda has the right combination of zest, integrity, motivation, commitment and conviction to actually make a difference.. Maybe thats just naivety on my part.
As a finna fail man can i ask your honest opinion on berties reluctance take accountability??

Lennoxschips

I thought Enda Kenny came across well on the six o'clock news today, despite Bryan Dobson doing his best to come across as a total Fianna Failer.

DeepBlue

He came across well alright and didn't mention the contract once :eek: .

Lennoxschips

I find it very odd that the media are putting Fine Gael on the defensive with regards to health. I mean, whose fault is it that things have gotten the way they are?

il gatto

I think saying that Kenny's ability to keep pre election promises is suspect, is a bit ridiculous, when he's up against a man who has a proven track record of ACTUALLY not keeping them.
Also, this continually trotted out line of Bertie Ahern being 1.Charismatic (he's no JFK) 2.A man of the people (He's been in politics far too long for that. Liking a pint and supporting Man U does not make him "everyman") 3.A great statesman (I'm embarrassed watching him represent the country)
Bertie Aherne stands with a hump. His voice is nasal and he stammers a bit. When not delivering pre written material, he's hesitant and factually suspect. He and his government have been arrogant and dismissive in the extreme. Spontaneous contact
with the media has all but been phased out. Probing questions ignored or shouted down.
Also, a man who gave two of the most powerful ministries in the country to a party with one of the tiniest mandates possible, one of the only pre election promises he did keep, and that to save his own skin as Taoiseach.
The man who for twenty years was synonomous with the Dunnes Stores anorak is the best this country has to offer?
Maybe the more metropolitan amongst us couldn't abide by a Taoiseach who's a culchie?

bakerbhoy

FF/pd have not performed nearly as well as they should have given recent resources.
My problem with FG/LABOUR is not what they promise to do, it's all aspirational,it's the HOW they will do what they promise is what has been lacking in their arguments.
To solve the services problem health/education they will have to kick ass with the civil service.
Nurses / teachers /consultants and any more grades you care to think of are on a coffee break.
Which politician is going to take the michael o'leary route with them.
HERES HOW IT IS.. YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE? ...F**K OFF THEN.
Answer to that none of them.
Enda might have his beds but the status quo will remain the same.The public sector needs a culture change not less working hours .

I normally vote for the indvidual not along party lines but fg/labour have not convinced me to change mainly because there is not enough of the''HOW'' IN THEIR ARGUMENTS

Raiser

il gatto wrote:

I think saying that Kenny's ability to keep pre election promises is suspect, is a bit ridiculous, when he's up against a man who has a proven track record of ACTUALLY not keeping them.
Also, this continually trotted out line of Bertie Ahern being 1.Charismatic (he's no JFK) 2.A man of the people (He's been in politics far too long for that. Liking a pint and supporting Man U does not make him "everyman") 3.A great statesman (I'm embarrassed watching him represent the country)
Bertie Aherne stands with a hump. His voice is nasal and he stammers a bit. When not delivering pre written material, he's hesitant and factually suspect. He and his government have been arrogant and dismissive in the extreme. Spontaneous contact
with the media has all but been phased out. Probing questions ignored or shouted down.
Also, a man who gave two of the most powerful ministries in the country to a party with one of the tiniest mandates possible, one of the only pre election promises he did keep, and that to save his own skin as Taoiseach.
The man who for twenty years was synonomous with the Dunnes Stores anorak is the best this country has to offer?
Maybe the more metropolitan amongst us couldn't abide by a Taoiseach who's a culchie?

Hmmm - some good points well made here I thinks.

bget

bget wrote:

As a finna fail man can i ask your honest opinion on berties reluctance take accountability??

He should have got the bullet last autumn/winter when news first broke.

Money Shot

It seems to me that when a person joins a party, they loose all power of objective reasoning, and just repeat the party line ad nauseum. I understand if someone feels particularly drawn to the ideology of a certain party, but you must surely know when they have failed or are wrong.

Debating with someone who is this politicised is annoying - you get the impression that they don't actually know anything, but only know what they want to say. I'm sure this isn't the case, but this is how it comes across. It's not very difficult to spot someone with a party allegiance on here.

All I'm saying is that on this board, you can let your guard down, cross that party line and tell us how you truly feel.

Money Shot

Money Shot wrote:

It seems to me that when a person joins a party, they loose all power of objective reasoning, and just repeat the party line ad nauseum. I understand if someone feels particularly drawn to the ideology of a certain party, but you must surely know when they have failed or are wrong.

I think there is some mistake.

I think this belongs to the 'I hate people who follow party politics' thread, not one on Bertie v Enda.

Money Shot

Deleted User wrote:

I think there is some mistake.

I think this belongs to the 'I hate people who follow party politics' thread, not one on Bertie v Enda.

No Mistake- just making a general point that I noticed reading this thread - is that ok ? It's relevant to the postings on this thread, and I don't think it offends anyone.

And I tend not to hate people that easily. I definitely don't hate people for merely expressing an opinion on an internet forum.

Money Shot

Money Shot wrote:

I definitely don't hate people for merely expressing an opinion on an internet forum.

Love me...love my opinions...;)

bget

Prior to this election I never really would have been to loyal to any specific party. My backing of enda and fine gael now is purely down to how enda has come across in his camopaigning.. Have real respect for him!!

dh2007

I've been following the election coverage over the last month or so and I'd become very dispondent about the whole thing. When I came across this boards thread I was absolutely delighted to read so many people's postings outlining their criticism of the current government. It has restored my hope that the current FF/PD government will be ousted.

I'm not a particularly political person, nor am I affiliated with any political party but I have to say that my new catchphrase is 'ABFF' or 'Anything But Fianna Fail'.

People in this country are apathetic. Our economy is still bouyant with no 'real' problems to speak of (record low unemployment, excellent salaries etc.) and because of this think that FF have done a good job. Done a good job??! What a farce. The revenues that the current government had been getting over the past few years have been phenomenal. Due to their bad money management our health care system (us and Lithuania were found to have the worst healthcare systems in Europe) and our educational systems have fallen apart.

Thanks to FF/PDs we have the following bizarre, contradictory statistics:

we have the 4th highest GDP purchasing power parity in THE WORLD
we have an unemployment rate of 4.3%
and now the not so good statistics:
we have the lowest broadband uptake in OECD (6.7%)
we have only 1 university in the top 200 university rankings (TCD)
as aforementioned, alongside Lithuania we have the worst healthcare system in Europe
we are the only capital city in western europe that does not have an underground metro system

how is this possible? we have so much money in our economy that all of the above problems should not exist.

I'm going to vote FG/labour because I think that anyone must be able to do a better job than FF/PD. Also, I think that Bertie is an embarrassment. Last Thursday during the debate I thought he came across as smarmy and sly. He continually interupted Kenny (now I know Kenny did some interputing too), but his childlike school yard tactics didn't wash with me.

Out with the old and in with the new! No more complacency! Vote for a government that you can trust and that doesn't have a smeared reputation.

DH

PS those stats are from wikipedia and other web sources. I also noted while on wikipedia that when you go to both berties and FFs pages there are large sections dedicated to corruption etc. whereas if you go onto Kenny's page or FGs page there isn't even a mention of any dubious affairs! Food for thought...

dh2007

I've been following the election coverage over the last month or so and I'd become very dispondent about the whole thing. When I came across this boards thread I was absolutely delighted to read so many people's postings outlining their criticism of the current government. It has restored my hope that the current FF/PD government will be ousted.

I'm not a particularly political person, nor am I affiliated with any political party but I have to say that my new catchphrase is 'ABFF' or 'Anything But Fianna Fail'.

People in this country are apathetic. Our economy is still bouyant with no 'real' problems to speak of (record low unemployment, excellent salaries etc.) and because of this think that FF have done a good job. Done a good job??! What a farce. The revenues that the current government had been getting over the past few years have been phenomenal. Due to their bad money management our health care system (us and Lithuania were found to have the worst healthcare systems in Europe) and our educational systems have fallen apart.

Thanks to FF/PDs we have the following bizarre, contradictory statistics:

we have the 4th highest GDP purchasing power parity in THE WORLD
we have an unemployment rate of 4.3%
and now the not so good statistics:
we have the lowest broadband uptake in OECD (6.7%)
we have only 1 university in the top 200 university rankings (TCD)
as aforementioned, alongside Lithuania we have the worst healthcare system in Europe
we are the only capital city in western europe that does not have an underground metro system

how is this possible? we have so much money in our economy that all of the above problems should not exist.

I'm going to vote FG/labour because I think that anyone must be able to do a better job than FF/PD. Also, I think that Bertie is an embarrassment. Last Thursday during the debate I thought he came across as smarmy and sly. He continually interupted Kenny (now I know Kenny did some interputing too), but his childlike school yard tactics didn't wash with me.

Out with the old and in with the new! No more complacency! Vote for a government that you can trust and that doesn't have a smeared reputation.

DH

PS those stats are from wikipedia and other web sources. I also noted while on wikipedia that when you go to both berties and FFs pages there are large sections dedicated to corruption etc. whereas if you go onto Kenny's page or FGs page there isn't even a mention of any dubious affairs! Food for thought...

Money Shot

I have to agree with you on Enda - he has really surprised me this campaign. Cheesy and all as it is, he has put his head on the block to be chopped off, and he does seem to have a level of honesty and integrity that has been missing from Irish politics under Fianna Fail.

I have no respect for Bertie what so ever, for the many reasons that Heinrich has already pointed out. How can you have respect for him after the way 2002 manifesto has panned out. He is a spoofer and a chancer, and I hate his 'there is no problem' attitude to everything.

Money Shot

dh2007 wrote:

Thanks to FF/PDs we have the following bizarre, contradictory statistics:

we have the 4th highest GDP purchasing power parity in THE WORLD
we have an unemployment rate of 4.3%
and now the not so good statistics:
we have the lowest broadband uptake in OECD (6.7%)
we have only 1 university in the top 200 university rankings (TCD)
as aforementioned, alongside Lithuania we have the worst healthcare system in Europe
we are the only capital city in western europe that does not have an underground metro system

how is this possible? we have so much money in our economy that all of the above problems should not exist.

I'm going to vote FG/labour because I think that anyone must be able to do a better job than FF/PD. Also, I think that Bertie is an embarrassment. Last Thursday during the debate I thought he came across as smarmy and sly. He continually interupted Kenny (now I know Kenny did some interputing too), but his childlike school yard tactics didn't wash with me.

Out with the old and in with the new! No more complacency! Vote for a government that you can trust and that doesn't have a smeared reputation.
...

Good post, and I think summed up a lot of people's frustration with the current administration. It feels like they don't care about any issue, they only ever act when something has reached crisis point - which is always too late. They have become so comfortable and arrogant in power - they need to feel how people are really thinking on thursday.

I will be SHOCKED if FF form the next government. I can't understand how people can reward mediocrity and let that happen.

cm2000

just as regards the metro point. i think- and i may be wrong here- that we have/had legislation that each person who owns land owns the land directly below them too. i think the blame for no citywide metro can basically go to the brits. most european city metros were built decades ago and the bigger and more complex a city grows the more difficult it becomes to build one.

dh2007

wasn't aware of that. Maybe that's something to do with ground rents? regardless, the FFs havent done enough. In my eyes the whole whole 'lets finish the job' crap would only mean running our public services into more difficulty

cm2000

i actually can't believe ff havent brought up transport as a big issue in this campaign given the ambition of their transport 21 plan. something i dont believe the rainbow would have had the ambition for had they been in power.
http://www.transport21.ie/

dh2007

they're probably too scared to bring it up!

il gatto

They haven't brought it up, as they've failed to deliver on large parts of it, and have little intention of completing it as set out. They don't have much to gloat about except the economy, which owes more to Germany and France hitting a bad patch and interest rates dropping than anything Fianna Fail have done.

The White Rose

I wonder if the fact that Ahern is from Dublin is having an effect

When push comes to shove a lot of Dubs will vote for one of their own. When was the last time we had a rural taoiseach- Albert Reynolds I think and he didnt last long

I'm not saying whether this is a right or wrong way to vote, just that that urban/rural thing could be havin an effect