Should Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth

odonnell

ArthurF wrote:

Thats if you agree with the 'Colonial' thing in the first place ~ (I dont) ~ but personally speaking, I think re-joining the Commonwealth would be a good & healthy gesture towards the North & Britain, & could in theory go a long, long way to "actually securing a United island" not to mention the many Political & Cultural benefits we would get out of being a member of such a diverse club/community.

"Lets woo the Unionists for once" instead of keeping them at arms length!

but if theyre kept at arms length, you can be free to blindly despise them and all you think they stand for. Youre free to keep the picture youve painted of them in its pride of place above your fire and curse the very mothers that spawned them....

if you enter into treaties with them - youd only be forced to put history to bed, would you not?

Generational inherited bile and reconciliation are very awkward bedfellows mate.

gurramok

ArthurF wrote:

Thats if you agree with the 'Colonial' thing in the first place ~ (I dont) ~ but personally speaking, I think re-joining the Commonwealth would be a good & healthy gesture towards the North & Britain, & could in theory go a long, long way to "actually securing a United island" not to mention the many Political & Cultural benefits we would get out of being a member of such a diverse club/community.

"Lets woo the Unionists for once" instead of keeping them at arms length!

How about Unionists wooing us for a change?...Gestures are both ways ya know!

A referendum will have to be called on whether re-joining and accepting herself as head of state rather than so called in touch politicians deciding the outcome.

ScottishDanny

WHAT FOR?
I can't see the merits of joining this old boys club (with some very dodgy members). Ireland does OK with its EU involvement and good international profile as it is. I didn't hear Paisley insisting on ROI joining the Commonwealth so I don't think it would make much diference to NI unionists.

Can we get a simple poll on the issue?

16airassualt

it dosent matter wether it would be a good idea or not,its not an option.if the government even hinted at doing anything such a thing,well thhink of the love ulster parade riots*1000,000

16airassualt

anyway,remember bloody sunday??would we want to be part of a country that rewarded its officers for shooting innocent irish civilians in cold blood...the divide is just to much+it would be making a mockery of the war of independance which many irish people sacrificed there lives so we could be free from the commonwealth as we are now

robinph

gurramok wrote:

A referendum will have to be called on whether re-joining and accepting herself as head of state rather than so called in touch politicians deciding the outcome.

It would have absolutely nothing to do with having herself as head of state and nothing would change politically in that regard. All that would happen is that Bertie, or whoever his replacement is, gets to go off to somewhere exotic for a meeting with all the other countries PM's every now and then.

But Ireland would stand a chance of winning a couple of medals in their next mini Olympics, at least until the US decide to rejoin as well.

darkman2

It would be wise for some here to remember that up until only ten years ago the British were treating this country as a nuisance. Anyone remember Thatcher? As I already said the legacy of oppression in Ireland will mean there will never be great relations with our neighbour. They can start off by leaving the illegitmate state to our North which I want to remind people was setup to:


a: to f**k us over for several generations

b: to ensure our country was kept in its place

Until they realised that not even England would escape that anger did they start taking our country seriously. Unfortunately that was after Thatcher's reign. Commonwealth? - What a crock of bullsh*t. I dont think the majority of Irish people want anything politically to do with Britain - and rightfully so. The EU is were the real future is.

robinph

darkman2 wrote:

I dont think the majority of Irish people want anything politically to do with Britain - and rightfully so. The EU is were the real future is.

The UK is in that little club as well you know.

luckat

Can't see any point in joining <shrug>. It's a pointless organisation.

Zambia

darkman2 wrote:

As I already said the legacy of oppression in Ireland will mean there will never be great relations with our neighbour. They can start off by leaving the illegitmate state to our North which I want to remind people was setup to:

a: to f**k us over for several generations

b: to ensure our country was kept in its place

Until they realised that not even England would escape that anger did they start taking our country seriously. Unfortunately that was after Thatcher's reign. Commonwealth? - What a crock of bullsh*t. I dont think the majority of Irish people want anything politically to do with Britain - and rightfully so. The EU is were the real future is.

Eventually mate you and your sort will pass on and all this bitterness you revel in will pass along with it.

mike65

Have to laugh at Darkman2 outburst, what do you think the Good Friday Agreement is, if not a political association with UK? Ditto the common travel area and several other bi-lateral matters. Not to mention that Ireland and UK are often on the same side within EU when it comes to the Commision seekin to meddle in corporation tax affairs. I'd guess that the UK and Ireland are more wrapped up in each other at all levels than almost any other two soverign.
states.

Mike.

joecoote

Within the EU freedom of movement and right to employment is very liberal. If a person's particular affiliation is to another sovereign state, then by all means move there. Do not expect the vast majority of Irish people, however, to buy into a scheme that any way diminishes Irish sovereignty. Sure Ireland has bi-lateral treaties with its next door neighbor, but these treaties are negotiated between sovereign nations. Having a mature relationship with our next door neighbor is healthy.

But for heaven's sake it time to grow out of this childish notion that we have to attach ourselves to our bigger neighbor's apron strings. We are a mature, economically dynamic Republic. We belong through treaties to one of the world's biggest economic power blocs - i.e. the EU. Surely, its time to put the past behind us. We do not need to belong to an outdated colonial relic that is the commonwealth.

Unionists and others will not be impressed by our joining a symbolic but powerless club. What I find impresses people about modern Ireland is its economic accomplishments and its positive outlook on the future.

odonnell

joecoote wrote:

Within the EU freedom of movement and right to employment is very liberal. If a person's particular affiliation is to another sovereign state, then by all means move there. Do not expect the vast majority of Irish people, however, to buy into a scheme that any way diminishes Irish sovereignty. Sure Ireland has bi-lateral treaties with its next door neighbor, but these treaties are negotiated between sovereign nations. Having a mature relationship with our next door neighbor is healthy.

But for heaven's sake it time to grow out of this childish notion that we have to attach ourselves to our bigger neighbor's apron strings. We are a mature, economically dynamic Republic. We belong through treaties to one of the world's biggest economic power blocs - i.e. the EU. Surely, its time to put the past behind us. We do not need to belong to an outdated colonial relic that is the commonwealth.

Unionists and others will not be impressed by our joining a symbolic but powerless club. What I find impresses people about modern Ireland is its economic accomplishments and its positive outlook on the future.

Well said, and that last line is actually one of the main reasons we moved here in the first place...

Maskhadov

absolutely NOT. We have moved on as a nation and shouldnt be looking backwards.

LordSutch

Maskhadov wrote:

absolutely NOT. We have moved on as a nation and shouldnt be looking backwards.

I disagree with you 100% on that 'backwards' remark Maskhadov, and I actually think that the State re-joining the Commonwealth would be a sign of maturity & a coming to terms with our roots as part of a much wider community & cultural identity (unlike de'Valera's Mono-Cultural, suffocating ideology) which lasted far too long in the Irish psyche, & which I dispise .............

So lets re-join the 'Club' and look forward to an even better relationship with the North & Britain.

mike65

It should be pointed out Ireland would'nt be re-joining. Its never been a member.

Mike.

gurramok

ArthurF wrote:

I disagree with you 100% on that 'backwards' remark Maskhadov, and I actually think that the State re-joining the Commonwealth would be a sign of maturity & a coming to terms with our roots as part of a much wider community & cultural identity (unlike de'Valera's Mono-Cultural, suffocating ideology) which lasted far too long in the Irish psyche, & which I dispise .............

So lets re-join the 'Club' and look forward to an even better relationship with the North & Britain.

what he probably meant as going backwards in time, not referring UK as backwards which we all know is not true as it is an advanced economy.

Rejoining would be immature, Ireland as a separate nation has found its roots and cultural identity in the world, the nation is mature enough to hold its own in the world.
Funny thing is, we have a top-notch wonderful relationship with Britain at the mo, no need to sour it now by trying to be british when we are not.

LordSutch

It should be pointed out Ireland would'nt be re-joining. Its never been a member.

Oh yes it was, and my aged Mother will still testify to the fact that the first thing her Family knew about us leaving the Commonwealth was when the News paper was delivered to the house one morning and the headlines read that some air head minister had decided that we 'had left' the Commonwealth (late 1940s/ early 1950s)? ..............................

mike65

Another thing learned today

gurramok, are you telling me the average Mozambique citizen thinks they are trying to be British?

Mike.

SeanW

mike65 wrote:

It should be pointed out Ireland would'nt be re-joining. Its never been a member.

Mike.

Which is an even better reason not to start now.

darkman2

ArthurF wrote:

I disagree with you 100% on that 'backwards' remark Maskhadov, and I actually think that the State re-joining the Commonwealth would be a sign of maturity & a coming to terms with our roots as part of a much wider community & cultural identity (unlike de'Valera's Mono-Cultural, suffocating ideology) which lasted far too long in the Irish psyche, & which I dispise .............

So lets re-join the 'Club' and look forward to an even better relationship with the North & Britain.

So how far do you think we should go with these 'roots'. Should we rejoin the United Kingdom while we are it. Might aswell go the whole way and give up sovereignty too.

I see no reason whatsoever for rejoining the commonwealth. No-one has actually given a good reason.

Zambia

The average zambian never really cared I know that...

A Dub in Glasgo

I have yet to see even one good reason to join the commonwealth. For all those who would like the RoI to join, please provide some benefits.

InFront

Well the most obvious one has, in fact, been mentioned; that's trade links. Ireland is one of few European countries eligible to join, and is the only one that doesn't.
The Commonwealth has among its members economically significant states like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and Singapore. It could serve as an important trade forum for such countries outside of the EU circle.

Broadening our economic horizons, so to speak.

Now apart from grudge or ceremony, give us one valid reason why not?

darkman2

InFront wrote:

Well the most obvious one has, in fact, been mentioned; that's trade links. Ireland is one of few European countries eligible to join, and is the only one that doesn't.
The Commonwealth has among its members economically significant states like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and Singapore. It could serve as an important trade forum for such countries outside of the EU circle.

Broadening our economic horizons, so to speak.

Now apart from grudge or ceremony, give us one valid reason why not?

I note you convieniently leave out the majority of countries that are third world.

InFront

But if they have no trade to engage in with Ireland, why should they be mentioned?

We wouldn't have to share their economy, you know.

mike65

One reason that might be put forward to join is that 'Official Ireland' just loves to think itself part of something bigger/posher that it is. EU/UN etc then they can throw a nice beano when Ireland hosts the Commonwealth every er generation or so It should be pointed out if Ireland made an application there's no guarantee they'd be accepted.

Mike.

LordSutch

The Republic and the Commonwealth

1949 Southern Ireland leaves the Commonwealth.

The Republic of Ireland Act amounted to a final declaration of an Irish republic. Irish membership of the Commonwealth of Nations automatically lapsed and necessitated the introduction of the Ireland Act 1949 by Westminster to avoid Irish citizens living in the United Kingdom being treated as foreigners. The Irish government, under John A. Costello, opted not to reapply for membership, although at the time, membership was dependent on allegiance to the British Crown until India became a republic within the Commonwealth in 1950 < This decision was heavily criticised by the then Leader of the Opposition Mr Eamon de Valera, who actively considered re-applying for Commonwealth membership in the 1950s. (De Valera's grandson, Éamon Ó Cuív, now an Irish government minister also advocated Irish membership of the Commonwealth as recently as the late 1990s.

The above was taken from Wikipedia ~ ironic also to note that Dev of all people should want to re-join the Commonwealth considering his very ‘Public’ anti British rants, same goes for his grandson Eamon who seems also to want one foot in & one foot out of the ‘Commonwealth’ which presumably he would want translated into Irish ASAP:-)

darkman2

ArthurF wrote:

Southern Ireland leaves the Commonwealth.

:-)

Best thing we ever did and thankfully little hope of going back.;)

Hotblack Desiato

mike65 wrote:

It should be pointed out Ireland would'nt be re-joining. Its never been a member.

Technically correct. Ireland (aka Republic of Ireland) was never a member, but the Irish Free State was.

Zambia232 wrote:

Eventually mate you and your sort will pass on and all this bitterness you revel in will pass along with it.

I'd wager it's the lovers of the trappings of Empire who will pass on first!
Perhaps they're the ones who are really bitter about our successful, independent republic?

RuggieBear

Our "successful" independent republic has only been successful for the last 15 years.

Hotblack Desiato

RuggieBear wrote:

Our "successful" independent republic has only been successful for the last 15 years.

There are many reasons for that but not being in the Commonwealth is hardly one of them.
In any case the economy isn't the only measure of a successful nation. We were able to win limited independence from the UK and through peaceful means extend that into a completely independent republic. That was most certainly a success from the point of view of the many other nations trying to win independence from the UK at that time.

cailin_donn

I can't believe what I'm hearing!!!

You actually think it'd be alright to rejoin the Commonwealth?? 700 years of opression! 700 YEARS!!!!! we are our own country and if anyone ever said to me "Irleland, isnt that part of Britain?" then God help them!! What about all those who died for a Republic? Who died so we can say that we're Irish, not British.

If we rejoin the Commonwealth, there will be another rebellion, and, personally, I'll organise it!!!

Ireland becoming part of the British Commonwealth would be a dissapointment and an embarrasment, if it wasn't for Britain, there wouldnt be people in the North wanting to be joined to the UK.

It's disgraceful that they're even considering it.

hullaballoo

I don't see what difference it would make to us now, to be honest. I do believe that we should have stayed part of the Commonwealth when we had the chance - but then, I wasn't there for any part of Britain's rule over Ireland. I'm told it wasn't that nice what with Penal laws and the fact that even until the war of independence, there's compelling evidence that the British still saw the Irish as savages.

Dub13

cailin_donn wrote:

If we rejoin the Commonwealth, there will be another rebellion, and, personally, I'll organise it!!!

So are you starting a rebellion about Ireland and our EU membership...?we are giving up far far more power to Brussels then we would to any future involvement in the Commonwealth.

Liam Byrne

Ah, feck it lads - why don't we join the Roman Empire altogether.......that's another setup that was once powerful and respected and had some function, but is now consigned to history.....

Of course, if the "Common Wealth" lived up to the description of it's component names, maybe it'd be an improvement and a bit more social consciousness driven than the current what's-it-called ? "capitalist democracy" (i.e. where there's no "common wealth" and only the vested interests make money and decide policy) ?

if it wasn't for Britain, there wouldnt be people in the North wanting to be joined to the UK.

Erm, isn't that self-explanatory, since if there was no "Britain", there would be no "UK" to be joined to ?

dragonkin

cailin_donn wrote:

I can't believe what I'm hearing!!!

If we rejoin the Commonwealth, there will be another rebellion, and, personally, I'll organise it!!!

So if it was democratic decision you would rebel violently against it? Bit drastic reminds me of a few other organisations I know most of whom are called terrorists.

InFront

cailin_donn wrote:

You actually think it'd be alright to rejoin the Commonwealth?? 700 years of opression! 700 YEARS!!!!!

Can you give dates? Because it tends to vary from 400 years to 800 depending on who you talk to. I'm just interested in knowing what the actual length of the oppression was - although by the sounds of it the index of oppression varies and sways significantly throughout Irish history.

even until the war of independence, there's compelling evidence that the British still saw the Irish as savages.

You mean the Victorian/ Edwardian eras, of the concentration camp, imperialism in Africa, a society that operated what was essentially a caste system, and went to war with 'the hun' in an arms race of nationalist superiority - is that really so surprising?!

Nobody is doubting what happened one hundred years ago in history, but the relics of that era are unavoidable as they are irreconcilable with the modern political friendship between Ireland and the UK (the UK merely being a fellow member of the club).
Joining the commonwealth is the 'privelege' of an unfortunate history. However it happened to have come about, the country might as well extract something beneficial out of it.

Lord Oz

Maybe the Commonwealth should join the Irish Empire.

hullaballoo

InFront wrote:

Can you give dates? Because it tends to vary from 400 years to 800 depending on who you talk to. I'm just interested in knowing what the actual length of the oppression was - although by the sounds of it the index of oppression varies and sways significantly throughout Irish history.

That's perfectly true. According to the history books, 1171 (Henry II invaded on foot of the Bull Laudabiliter issued by pope Adrian IV)-1922 are the dates concerned.

The 'oppression' was more or less continuous in terms of statutes and administrative policy, but in practice, wasn't so active. The methods used by the British were to assimilate the Irish, so that they would become 'civilised'.

The strength of the English administration varied from time-to-time, but the presence was always felt. Even in periods where England were putting the assimilation of Ireland on the back-burner, things like the Tipperary Palatine, under the aegis of the Earls (and, later, Dukes) of Ormond (the Butler family) meant that there was a sense of Britishness.

At the same time, however, in rural areas, the native Irish systems were upheld. Even where the British common law had seeped into country towns, the law of the Brehons was often used as a compliment.

Beyond that, it depended on who was King/Queen and who was Lord Deputy how much the Irish were actively oppressed.

Funnily, the Penal laws contained a device (accidentally) that allowed Catholics to clear incumbrances from their land.

Nobody is doubting what happened one hundred years ago in history, but the relics of that era are unavoidable as they are irreconcilable with the modern political friendship between Ireland and the UK (the UK merely being a fellow member of the club).

True, but history doesn't forget these things too easily. I mean, there can be no doubt about it, the Irish were definitely not in favour with the English right up until independence, and they let us know.

Joining the commonwealth is the 'privelege' of an unfortunate history. However it happened to have come about, the country might as well extract something beneficial out of it.

I think the situation is so far removed in the present day that a re-accession to the commonwealth couldn't be said to be grounded in the murky history of the states.

Thus, re-accession would be a move independent of the previous joinder - which was more of an occupation of lands rather than two countries sharing governance.

cailin_donn

InFront wrote:

Can you give dates? Because it tends to vary from 400 years to 800 depending on who you talk to. I'm just interested in knowing what the actual length of the oppression was - although by the sounds of it the index of oppression varies and sways significantly throughout Irish history.

well i know it first started a little while after Christianity came, around 600AD.... the Anglo Saxons were first.... and continuous from then on and didnt stop until 1922. which is over 700 years, i know.

And for those of you calling me a "terrorist" is it terrorist to want independence for your country? is it terrorism to not want to be a part of Britain?

And ya lol if there was no Britain thered be no commonwealth..... but i meant if England didnt kick the native Irish off their lands

joecoote

I say we start our own club. Something along the lines of the unaffilated, non-aligned nations who dont give a toss about status (the UNANWDGATAS). We can carry out trade in non-essential economic goods. Hold bi-annual games in sports we know we can win (e.g. hurling). We can also change the rules during the game if we're losing. We can also keep certain countries out and make fun of them. This should satisfy people who believe Ireland needs to belong to a club.

cailin_donn

joecoote wrote:

This should satisfy people who believe Ireland needs to belong to a club.

Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace

mike65

Whats the EU if not a club?

Mike.

sceptre

cailin_donn wrote:

well i know it first started a little while after Christianity came, around 600AD

That'd be around the same time we Irish were invading and settling Scotland then?

tricky D

sceptre wrote:

That'd be around the same time we Irish were invading and settling Scotland then?

And sometime after the Celts came from Europe and presumably took our jobs....

Time Magazine

cailin_donn wrote:

Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace

The Commonwealth is not the same as the Empire, brown girl.

Liam Byrne

cailin_donn wrote:

Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace

Much as I hate some of the attitude of Britain - particularly those ignorant idiots who refer to "the mainland" and who can't/don't recognise Ireland as a separate, independent country - I can't and don't believe and condone comments like "brought Britain to its knees".....

Firstly I don't think we - as a nation - actually did that (some thugs and terrorists might have attempted it without the support of "the smaller nation"), but certainly "we" didn't do that.

Secondly, no nation has the right to even attempt to bring another nation "to its knees".......certainly, some nations deserve to be taken down a peg or two when they start thinking they're the centre of the universe (e.g. the U.S. interfering and invading anywhere they like, along with the whole "America saves the world" ****e that's inherent in most Hollywood blockbusters, or the arrogance of the ignorant idiots from the UK mentioned earlier) but no-one has the right to bring anyone "to their knees".

SeanW

Ibid wrote:

The Commonwealth is not the same as the Empire, brown girl.

Symbolically it sounds similar though, rampant Anglophillia, an endorsement of Colonialism. We can be friends with the Brits, but not in their pathetic Commonwealth.

I'd be in cailin_donn's camp if this madness ever came to pass.

Whats the EU if not a club?

The difference between the EU and other things is that many imperialist nations want to have smaller countries within their sphere of influence. Like Russia with Eastern Europe and the Independent Block, the U.S. in the Middle East, and the U.K. with its 'Commonwealth' of ex-colonies.

We have good reason to be in the EU which is a democratic, explicit grouping, not imperialist in nature, but nothing else.

Time Magazine

SeanW wrote:

Symbolically it sounds similar though, rampant Anglophillia, an endorsement of Colonialism. We can be friends with the Brits, but not in their pathetic Commonwealth.

I'd be against our membership on account of us being part of the EU, but we didn't fight to leave the Commonwealth. We fought to leave the Empire and become a free democratic nation. The Commonwealth is essentially a free trade association with historical basis. It wouldn't hurt developing ties with all those African nations in terms of our moral obligation to help them develop.

Nonetheless, as I said, we should focus those ties through the EU and help them develop by lowering our agricultural barriers, etc.

But this knee-jerk "OMG THE QUEEN!" reaction is stupid.