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Should Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth

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    #92
    cailin_donn
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭cailin_donn


    InFront wrote:
    Can you give dates? Because it tends to vary from 400 years to 800 depending on who you talk to. I'm just interested in knowing what the actual length of the oppression was - although by the sounds of it the index of oppression varies and sways significantly throughout Irish history.

    well i know it first started a little while after Christianity came, around 600AD.... the Anglo Saxons were first.... and continuous from then on and didnt stop until 1922. which is over 700 years, i know.

    And for those of you calling me a "terrorist" is it terrorist to want independence for your country? is it terrorism to not want to be a part of Britain?

    And ya lol if there was no Britain thered be no commonwealth..... but i meant if England didnt kick the native Irish off their lands


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    #93
    joecoote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭joecoote


    I say we start our own club. Something along the lines of the unaffilated, non-aligned nations who dont give a toss about status (the UNANWDGATAS). We can carry out trade in non-essential economic goods. Hold bi-annual games in sports we know we can win (e.g. hurling). We can also change the rules during the game if we're losing. We can also keep certain countries out and make fun of them. This should satisfy people who believe Ireland needs to belong to a club.


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    #94
    cailin_donn
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭cailin_donn


    joecoote wrote:
    This should satisfy people who believe Ireland needs to belong to a club.

    Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace


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    #95
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Whats the EU if not a club?

    Mike.


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    #96
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    cailin_donn wrote:
    well i know it first started a little while after Christianity came, around 600AD
    That'd be around the same time we Irish were invading and settling Scotland then?


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    #97
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    sceptre wrote:
    That'd be around the same time we Irish were invading and settling Scotland then?
    And sometime after the Celts came from Europe and presumably took our jobs....


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    #98
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    cailin_donn wrote:
    Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace
    The Commonwealth is not the same as the Empire, brown girl.


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    #99
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    cailin_donn wrote:
    Thats a good point, sinc when do we need to be in a club?? We (the smaller nation) brought Britain to its knees and some want to go back? its a disgrace

    Much as I hate some of the attitude of Britain - particularly those ignorant idiots who refer to "the mainland" and who can't/don't recognise Ireland as a separate, independent country - I can't and don't believe and condone comments like "brought Britain to its knees".....

    Firstly I don't think we - as a nation - actually did that (some thugs and terrorists might have attempted it without the support of "the smaller nation"), but certainly "we" didn't do that.

    Secondly, no nation has the right to even attempt to bring another nation "to its knees".......certainly, some nations deserve to be taken down a peg or two when they start thinking they're the centre of the universe (e.g. the U.S. interfering and invading anywhere they like, along with the whole "America saves the world" ****e that's inherent in most Hollywood blockbusters, or the arrogance of the ignorant idiots from the UK mentioned earlier) but no-one has the right to bring anyone "to their knees".


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    #100
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,831 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Ibid wrote:
    The Commonwealth is not the same as the Empire, brown girl.
    Symbolically it sounds similar though, rampant Anglophillia, an endorsement of Colonialism. We can be friends with the Brits, but not in their pathetic Commonwealth.

    I'd be in cailin_donn's camp if this madness ever came to pass.
    Whats the EU if not a club?
    The difference between the EU and other things is that many imperialist nations want to have smaller countries within their sphere of influence. Like Russia with Eastern Europe and the Independent Block, the U.S. in the Middle East, and the U.K. with its 'Commonwealth' of ex-colonies.

    We have good reason to be in the EU which is a democratic, explicit grouping, not imperialist in nature, but nothing else.


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    #101
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    SeanW wrote:
    Symbolically it sounds similar though, rampant Anglophillia, an endorsement of Colonialism. We can be friends with the Brits, but not in their pathetic Commonwealth.
    I'd be against our membership on account of us being part of the EU, but we didn't fight to leave the Commonwealth. We fought to leave the Empire and become a free democratic nation. The Commonwealth is essentially a free trade association with historical basis. It wouldn't hurt developing ties with all those African nations in terms of our moral obligation to help them develop.

    Nonetheless, as I said, we should focus those ties through the EU and help them develop by lowering our agricultural barriers, etc.

    But this knee-jerk "OMG THE QUEEN!" reaction is stupid.


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    #102
    dragonkin
    Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭dragonkin


    cailin_donn wrote:
    well i know it first started a little while after Christianity came, around 600AD.... the Anglo Saxons were first.... and continuous from then on and didnt stop until 1922. which is over 700 years, i know.

    And for those of you calling me a "terrorist" is it terrorist to want independence for your country? is it terrorism to not want to be a part of Britain?

    And ya lol if there was no Britain thered be no commonwealth..... but i meant if England didnt kick the native Irish off their lands

    Happily we live in a free country so you can want anything at all. It's only terrorism (that's too emotive a word but it'll do for this) when you violently rebel against a democratic consensus.

    Joining the Commonwealth would not make us part of Britain nor affect our independence. It is not the same as capitulating to an imperial British empire.

    There are not many strong arguments for joining the commonwealth and there aren't many against. I personally feel the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages but it won't make much difference to me either way tbh.


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    #103
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    OS119 wrote:
    it does no harm - its pretty cheap - and it would make a million people in the north much happier about RoI involvement in the governance of NI.
    To make the other million unhappy?
    OS119 wrote:
    Japan and the US share defence and economic treaties far outstripping the Commonwealth in depth and breadth, yet 60 years ago the US vapourised 100,000 Japanese civilians in 0.2 seconds. short version, get over it.
    The Japanese hit the US, the US hit back.

    The British hit us, we hit back. And now we must bend over and take it?


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    #104
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Some damn weird attitudes on this thread, I'd start to belive some here are dissapointed the "war" is over.

    Mike.


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    #105
    joecoote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭joecoote


    mike65 wrote:
    Whats the EU if not a club?

    Mike.

    Comparing the EU and CW is like comparing apples and golf balls. The EU, in essence, is a group of geographical contiguous countries who through self interest have decided there is more that binds them then seperates them. They see advantages in breaking down punative (internal) trade barriers and as a mechanism that will see an end to European conflicts between themselves.

    The common thread in the CW is that all members, bar one, were former colonies. I remember back in the late 80's and early 90's when I resided in London there was a discussion of how the British should have built the CW as an alternative to the EU. Obviuosly pie in the sky stuff. Britain knows where its self interests lie - i.e. the EU. CW is really just a relic which offers not one benefit to Ireland. Time to look forward - not backward.


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    #106
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The only thing that would drive me away from supporting us being in the commonwealth is the fact that there is "British" before it :). We've been trying to get our own identity all these years and that certainly wouldn't help.


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    #107
    Maskhadov
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    the commonwealth or should i say english wealth has its day and will be dead and buried in a few years.


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    #108
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    cailin_donn wrote:
    I can't believe what I'm hearing!!!

    You actually think it'd be alright to rejoin the Commonwealth?? 700 years of opression! 700 YEARS!!!!! we are our own country and if anyone ever said to me "Irleland, isnt that part of Britain?" then God help them!! What about all those who died for a Republic? Who died so we can say that we're Irish, not British.

    If we rejoin the Commonwealth, there will be another rebellion, and, personally, I'll organise it!!!

    Ireland becoming part of the British Commonwealth would be a dissapointment and an embarrasment, if it wasn't for Britain, there would'nt be people in the North wanting to be joined to the UK.

    It's disgraceful that they're even considering it.

    Your republican rhetoric is obsolete & so 'last year' dear chap ~ Ireland has moved on rapidly in recent years, and even Eamon O'Coiv (Dev's grandson) openly campaigns for us to Re-join the Commonwealth, its just not the Big No,No it might have been ten or fifteen years ago!

    Add to this, the fact that re-joining the Commonwealth would bring us even closer to the North (if thats what we really want) ???

    I am for re-joining 100% ..................


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    #109
    cailin_donn
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭cailin_donn


    Liam Byrne wrote:
    Much as I hate some of the attitude of Britain - particularly those ignorant idiots who refer to "the mainland" and who can't/don't recognise Ireland as a separate, independent country - I can't and don't believe and condone comments like "brought Britain to its knees".....

    Firstly I don't think we - as a nation - actually did that (some thugs and terrorists might have attempted it without the support of "the smaller nation"), but certainly "we" didn't do that.

    Secondly, no nation has the right to even attempt to bring another nation "to its knees".......certainly, some nations deserve to be taken down a peg or two when they start thinking they're the centre of the universe (e.g. the U.S. interfering and invading anywhere they like, along with the whole "America saves the world" ****e that's inherent in most Hollywood blockbusters, or the arrogance of the ignorant idiots from the UK mentioned earlier) but no-one has the right to bring anyone "to their knees".

    Well what did we do then? They discriminated against us, they stopped Irish children having an education, kicked the Irish off of the land that was rightfully theirs and are the reasons for all the wars in this country. They executed numerous innocents and violently beat up bystanders. The thought that we were beneath them, that because we were Irish we were little better than dirt. The were ****ty rulers too, during the Famine, people were dying of starvation, they were weak but the British wouldn't give them any money unless they built pointless walls. Even when the price of food went up the British kept them on a low wage. If the Famine had been in England everything would have been done to help the people.

    Discrimination of Irish people only stopped very recently, think of the North and how the Protestant Englsh/Scottish made Irish live in other parts of town, made them have the worse jobs, re-drew the electoral boudries to ensure a Unionist majority. And in England itself, there were signs in pubs sayin "No blacks, No Irish" and "Irish need not apply".

    Should we have sat down and taken all this bull****?? They had us on our knees and we rose again. You say what right do we have to bring a nation to its knees? What right did they have to discriminate, murder and undermine us? To go back to the Commonwealth would be an insult to all the people who fighted for a Republic.

    And, thanks, SeanW for agreeing with me:D

    And ArthurF: We want the North, obviously. But to go back on our principals to get it, thats another thing. If we re-join the Commonwealth we'll be like a sorry dog crawling back to it's master. England will see it as a victory, that they've won because we came back to them. We'll get the North eventually, without having to join the Commonwealth.


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    #110
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    cailin_donn wrote:
    Well what did we do then? They discriminated against us, they stopped Irish children having an education, kicked the Irish off of the land that was rightfully theirs and are the reasons for all the wars in this country. They executed numerous innocents and violently beat up bystanders. The thought that we were beneath them, that because we were Irish we were little better than dirt. The were ****ty rulers too, during the Famine, people were dying of starvation, they were weak but the British wouldn't give them any money unless they built pointless walls. Even when the price of food went up the British kept them on a low wage. If the Famine had been in England everything would have been done to help the people.

    Discrimination of Irish people only stopped very recently, think of the North and how the Protestant Englsh/Scottish made Irish live in other parts of town, made them have the worse jobs, re-drew the electoral boudries to ensure a Unionist majority. And in England itself, there were signs in pubs sayin "No blacks, No Irish" and "Irish need not apply".

    Should we have sat down and taken all this bull****?? They had us on our knees and we rose again. You say what right do we have to bring a nation to its knees? What right did they have to discriminate, murder and undermine us? To go back to the Commonwealth would be an insult to all the people who fighted for a Republic.

    And, thanks, SeanW for agreeing with me:D

    And ArthurF: We want the North, obviously. But to go back on our principals to get it, thats another thing. If we re-join the Commonwealth we'll be like a sorry dog crawling back to it's master. England will see it as a victory, that they've won because we came back to them. We'll get the North eventually, without having to join the Commonwealth.

    Bloody hell man ~ you really have that old Republican hatred thing really, really bad ...........

    Not much I can say to your rant really ~ you obviously aint for any form of compromise or rational conversation with those of us who want to build bridges on this island, I really pity your blinkered & poisonous view to those of us who dont buy-into the 'old' Republican hatred thing......


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    #111
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    cailin_donn wrote:
    They discriminated against us... They thought that we were beneath them, that because we were Irish we were little better than dirt... They had us on our knees and we rose again... What right did they have to discriminate, murder and undermine us?... Should we have sat down and taken all this bull****??
    Can I ask how old you are? Because I think you're misusing the terms "we" and "us".
    Have the British Government really ever actually done anything harmful to you as an individual, or do you believe in inherited suffering or inherited blame?
    And in England itself, there were signs in pubs sayin "No blacks, No Irish" and "Irish need not apply".
    What's interesting is that black or coloured populations make up the majority of the commonwealth members, so I fail to see the significance either of that phrase in itself, especially in relation to a sign on a pub, which has very little to do with the Commonwealth.


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    #112
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    InFront wrote:
    Can I ask how old you are? Because I think you're misusing the terms "we" and "us".
    Have the British Government really ever actually done anything harmful to you as an individual, or do you believe in inherited suffering or inherited blame?

    What's interesting is that black or coloured populations make up the majority of the commonwealth members, so I fail to see the significance either of that phrase in itself, especially in relation to a sign on a pub, which has very little to do with the Commonwealth.

    The problem is that the Commonwealth is to a lot of people rightly or wrongly is the last vestige of a horrible empire. It would bring very little to the country and quite frankly I think no one would want to join in anyways.


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    #113
    dragonkin
    Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭dragonkin


    Why don't we create an EU games! That would be one major reason for joining out the window.


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    #114
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    wes wrote:
    The problem is that the Commonwealth is to a lot of people rightly or wrongly is the last vestige of a horrible empire. It would bring very little to the country and quite frankly I think no one would want to join in anyways.
    Pakistan did:D
    But yes, I think the majority of the population would be against it, but there does seem to be benefits in joining. I think the real usefulness of this debate is seeing how far people will go in Ireland's relationship with Britain.


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    #115
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    InFront wrote:
    Pakistan did:D
    But yes, I think the majority of the population would be against it, but there does seem to be benefits in joining. I think the real usefulness of this debate is seeing how far people will go in Ireland's relationship with Britain.

    Well I was referring to Ireland.

    We have a good relationship with Britain and we are in the EU together. It wouldn't really benefit that relationship either. Its an odd suggestion in my mind.


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    #116
    cailin_donn
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭cailin_donn


    ArthurF wrote:
    Bloody hell man ~ you really have that old Republican hatred thing really, really bad ...........

    Not much I can say to your rant really ~ you obviously aint for any form of compromise or rational conversation with those of us who want to build bridges on this island, I really pity your blinkered & poisonous view to those of us who dont buy-into the 'old' Republican hatred thing......

    Ya, I have it bad.... not my fault I was brought up with it! Bridges can be built without joining their little "club". Ireland can't be doing all the work for Britain, and joining the Commonwealth is not a compromise!! Why cn't Britain just hand over the 6 counties?!?!

    InFront: I'm a teenager. And the Brits haven't done anything to me, but to my family.


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    #117
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    cailin_donn wrote:
    Why cn't Britain just hand over the 6 counties?!?!
    Do you really think that they wouldn't get rid of them if they could?


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    #118
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    cailin_donn wrote:
    If the Famine had been in England everything would have been done to help the people.
    Do you have a factual basis for this assertion?

    I ask because the Penal Laws (to take an example) were as severe on English Catholics as they were on Irish. The reason there was little government intervention in the Famine was because of the laissez-faire economic policy, which was not a concept applied uniquely to Ireland.

    Honestly, it troubles me to see a teenager so entrenched in her views because of what she's been taught growing up. You should inform yourself with some more objective sources.


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    #119
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    cailin_donn wrote:
    They executed numerous innocents and violently beat up bystanders

    Two words to that: KETTLE, POT.


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    #120
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    cailin_donn wrote:
    Ireland can't be doing all the work for Britain, and joining the Commonwealth is not a compromise!! Why cn't Britain just hand over the 6 counties?!?!
    Because of the majority of people in the six counties don't want that.
    I'm a teenager. And the Brits haven't done anything to me, but to my family.
    In my sitting room there are IRA medals my grandfather earned for his role in securing freedom. I have freedom, I will vote in four days' time for our parliament. Joining the Commonwealth will not sacrifice this freedom. It will provide me with more freedom by lowering tax burdens if I want to trade with dozens of nations.

    My grandfather succeeded in his aim of getting the Tans out. Fortunately he saw what his aim was and didn't expect his grandchildren to hold grudges against a reformed British government. They've apologised ffs. I'd say get over it, but you've nothing to get over. The British rule hurt some ancestry of every family in the country. My ancestors had 100 acres simply stripped from them by Lord Leitrim MP for the sake of it. My grandfather's friends were shot dead in a field. My grandfather had to flee his home for several months to avoid being taken out and shot by the Black & Tans who were in the nearest town asking for him. My grandmother on my other side had a gun pointed at her by British forces.

    Why should that have any relevance to whether I enter a free-trade agreement with Botswana?


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    #121
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,831 ✭✭✭SeanW


    As an EU member Ireland does not have the power to make FTAs.

    So the question for the pro-Commonwealth people remains - what's the point of this sickening display of Anglophilia? Where's the benefit?

    I should point out that I have nothing against the British. In fact I think it's good that we're now friends with them, that we don't see each other as sub-human anymore etc. I believe it's only right and proper that the past should be left in the past. I just don't like all this homage that's paid to the Empire (like the Canadians printing the Queen's mug on their money and Australia, NZ and other countries having the Regent as their head of state, mini UK flags on their etc). The Commonwealth is just another type of that, nothing more.

    And BTW Eamon O'Cuiv is a muppet.


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